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Journalist Discusses Challenges to Israeli Prime Minister

Aired April 01, 2002 - 10:12   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: There is no shortage of voices who are urging Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, to do more to control militant violence against Israelis. Arafat is featured on the cover of this week's "Time" magazine. But can he control the terrorists if Israel keeps him boxed in the way he is right now?

For some more perspective on this, we are joined now by Tony Karon. He is the editor responsible for time.com's world page, and he is in our New York bureau -- we thank you very much for your tome this morning.

TONY KARON, TIME.COM: Thank you.

HARRIS: Let me ask you about that, first off, about this boxing in of Arafat right now. It seems it pretty much takes him off the hook, does it not? Because he can always claim that now, I have no contact. I can't move around. How can you expect me to go out here and shut down these so-called terrorist operations?

KARON: Correct. It's plain to see that Arafat is not going to do anything, as long as he is boxed in like this. Of course, the Israelis and the Bush administration will say they don't think he is going to do anything anyway, which may be correct. I mean, the real issue at stake here was that Arafat didn't embrace the cease-fire, and I think the reason for it primarily was that the cease-fire was not tied to any sort of resumption of the political dialogue in a very clear-cut way. And I think Arafat either won't or can't, and perhaps some combination of the two, buy into that, because essentially the Palestinians say it's not enough simply -- it's not in their interest to simply create security if there is no political horizon that leads back to some form of negotiation of the Palestinian statehood.

HARRIS: OK. But tell us what it is that is on this same political horizon for Ariel Sharon, it makes sense for him to continue this heavily aggressive incursion process?

KARON: It's hard to see exactly what Sharon is intending. I mean, if you listen to different Israelis spokesmen, you get a very different idea. I think essentially listening to what Peres said a few minutes ago, you get the sense that this is a form of negotiation. Remember three weeks, ago, Sharon said, we need to hit the Palestinians hard. We need to make them cry uncle. We need to hammer them until the point at which they are prepared to accept Israel's terms for some sort of cease-fire. And I think really that's what we are seeing right now. They are saying this is not a -- you know, when he talks about war, they say this is not a comprehensive occupation to reoccupy the West Bank. Presumably then what it's doing is trying to put the squeeze on Arafat to make him accept Israeli's terms.

HARRIS: But is -- are you convinced at all that Ariel Sharon wants to negotiate? I mean, he is being quoted in -- I saw a piece in "The New York Times" this morning, where he was saying that there isn't going to be any diplomatic negotiations here. He does not say openly he wants to negotiate at all. So what makes us think that he is willing to negotiate any kind of settlement here?

KARON: Well, that's a very good question. I mean, essentially the two issues here -- this about the breakdown of Oslo, and the two fundamentals of Oslo were that the Palestinians were required to renounce violence and the Israelis were required to renounce occupation. Now, the Israelis have, you know, ample reason to say over the past decade that, you know, Arafat has shown that he hasn't renounced violence. The Palestinians will to you that say they have ample reason to believe that the Israelis and particularly Sharon have not renounced occupation. You know, the settlements are expanding.

And so really the Bush administration is going to have to intervene and really restate those fundamentals, get both sides it sign onto something. It has this vision of the two states. It's kind of -- it's worth getting, you know, Arafat to sign onto the idea of pursuing those two states by nonviolence, and also to see whether Ariel Sharon is actually prepared to sign onto that.

HARRIS: OK. Let me ask you then as an outside observer then looking on from your perspective here. What is it do you think that the Bush administration could actually get anyone to sign onto here at this particular point? Because there are many people don't believe the Bush administration has very clearly spelled out exactly what it wants here.

KARON: Correct. And I think it's plain to see from the position that the Bush administration has taken that there is an element of -- well, it's already confusion. I think it's internal debate between the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in the Bush administration on how to proceed here, because you know, a couple of weeks ago, they were denouncing Sharon's incursions as unhelpful. They endorsed the U.N. Security Council resolution on Saturday night for Israel to withdraw, and yet at the same time, there is this essential support to Sharon for what he is doing now.

So the Bush administration has a vision of two states, Israeli and Palestine living side by side, but they haven't really spelled out, particularly in response to things like the Saudi proposal, how they see that situation being arrived at. And really, at the moment, the Bush administration's position has been security first, politics later. But plenty of that simply hasn't worked, and there is no reason to believe it is going to work.

HARRIS: So in your view, then, you think this is going to go on for much longer, because it seems as though almost every side here has a vested interest in staying exactly where it is? As you said here, the Bush administration doesn't want to get in yet until both sides have decided what they want to do. Ariel Sharon doesn't want to negotiate, and we have heard Yasser Arafat say last week he wants to be a martyr. He is not going to move.

KARON: Correct. I mean, there is not going to be -- I don't think the Palestinians are going to climb down. I don't think Sharon is going to climb down. I think really what is going to happen is a sense of crisis is developing in the region internationally is probably going to force some form of international intervention. I think Sharon may even be counting on the fact that at some point, the international community is going to call a halt and say...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: But that pressure -- I'm sorry -- but if that pressure builds who moves first, Sharon or the U.S.?

KARON: The U.S. is probably going to have to choreograph something here that gets the two sides to essentially sign onto some renewed cease-fire effort beyond what was done before.

HARRIS: For some of who have been watching this from the day it started, it's hard to believe we are at this point, still talking about this 18 months later -- 19 months later. Tony Karon, thank you very much. You were very insightful. We sure do appreciate it -- enjoyed the conversation. We will have to talk with you later on.

KARON: You're welcome.

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