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CNN LIVE TODAY
Former Israeli Justice Minister Discusses Escalating Violence
Aired April 2, 2002 - 10:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: I want to get another perspective on this. Yossi Beilin is our guest right now. He is the former justice minister under the previous administration here in Israel under Ehud Barak, and also one of the main architects of the Oslo Peace Accord back in the early 1990s. First, the topic about deporting Yasser Arafat. Is that answer right now?
YOSSI BEILIN, FMR. ISRAELI JUSTICE MINISTER: In my view, it is sheer stupidity. This is not the initial interest of Israel to kill Arafat or to deport him. Arafat is the leader of the Palestinian people, and as such, he is the one who signed with us the Oslo agreement, and he is the one who will sign with us or with another Israeli government, an agreement which would be the permanent agreement between Palestinians and Israelis.
There is no other Palestinian who is ready to do that.
HEMMER: What you are saying that he is the only hope then basically on the other side.
BEILIN: I am sure that he is far from being a saint, but this doesn't mean that we have a better alternative, or that we are in a position to replace the leadership of the other side. I don't see any other Palestinian, even a more moderate leader than himself, who would have the authority to sign an agreement with us, even a cease-fire agreement.
HEMMER: Within the Israeli government right now, within the cabinet, how much of a struggle is there right now over the future course of the military action, in addition to the future of Yasser Arafat?
BEILIN: I presume that the Labor Party, which is wrongly in this government, doesn't want Arafat to be deported, but Sharon doesn't deport Arafat, not because of Shimon Peres, but because of President Bush. The Americans don't want him to expel Arafat, and this is the only reason why Arafat is there.
HEMMER: Yes, when you put together the Oslo Peace Accord almost nine years ago now, how does it feel today knowing that the situation has gone the way it has?
BEILIN: Well, these are very sad days, and of course, the terrorism is awful, and one has to give an answer to terrorism. But to give an answer to terrorism is to strengthen the address, to strengthen the neighbor, to strengthen the Palestinian Authority, rather than to weaken it and to destroy it. It is to give these people, the security commanders, the power to cooperate with us, as it happened in the past, and to fight against those who send these terrorists to commit suicide bombings.
Now, I still believe that the spirit of Oslo, not the agreement itself, the agreement itself ended after five years, but the spirit of Oslo is still there, and at the end of the day, there will be two states to two peoples. The only question is how much blood will be spilled until then.
HEMMER: Are you suggesting right now the military activity is not proper? Would you disagree with the movement to go in?
BEILIN: Undoubtedly. It is the wrong ware in the wrong place with the wrong people, and it is a no-win situation. We are not going to put an end to terrorism by isolating Arafat and making a world hero or by fighting those people, like Jabril Rajoub, who will -- those who believed in peace and who cooperated with us to prevent horrible activities just a year or two years ago. This is in my view it is totally crazy.
HEMMER: Thank you for your time today. Yossi Beilin, again with us this afternoon, and certainly through the Middle East, you will get no shortage of opinions on every side in every perspective. But, Daryn, clearly, the military expansion, the activity anyway, does continue today. We will watch it. About a half a dozen towns right now involved throughout the West Bank -- Daryn back to you.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Bill, thank you so much. And as you said, no shortage of opinions. A couple more coming up right here, as Israel ratchets up the military pressure on the Palestinians. Israelis maintain that terrorists and their weapons are the targets. The Palestinians say this action amounts to state terrorism. Two reactions for you now from the chief Palestinian negotiator, also from former Israelis prime minister.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, FMR. ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: If Yasser Arafat is left in place, if it is seen that is he gaining -- gains anything by the use of this massive suicide terror, then terror will gain, and it will not just be one free society, one democracy, Israel, that will be under attack by this technique. You will see it spreading elsewhere to the rest of Europe and the United States. The time right now is to remove Arafat and to allow what I hope would be a democratic process to emerge amidst the Palestinians and a new saner leadership that seeks a real reconciliation and coexistence with us to come to the fore. We will embrace it in two minutes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: I don't think anybody in his sane mind would expect to be an exile from his country. Actually, the Palestinians have suffered so much from being exiled, from being in refugee camps, being outside their country. And honest to god, when I hear the likes of Benjamin Netanyahu, the man who began the destruction of the peace process in 1996, the man who began the planting of the seed of the destruction of the Oslo Accords and all agreements signed with us. When he speaks like this about an elected Palestinian leader, elected directly and freely by the Palestinian people, I think that shows that reflects what kind of people that lead Israel today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Palestinian officials say that Yasser Arafat, as you just heard there, saying that he was not going to go into exile, and he will remain in his compound in Ramallah surrounded by Israeli forces. And at that compound right now, at the security compound right now as a matter of fact, we have a reporter, our Michael Holmes. He did manage to get himself inside the security compound, and he joins us now live on the phone with the very latest. Michael what's going on right now?
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I can tell you, Leon, it has been an extraordinary experience. Last night, we heard a sustained and heavy assault on this security compound. And I want it make clear to people that this is not Yasser Arafat's compound. This is not the Palestinian Authority headquarters. It is the headquarters. It's called the Preventative Security headquarters. It houses there the head of the Preventative Security Department, Jabril Rajoub, his office block is about four stories high, and also houses the prison and a hospital. Now, prisons for Palestinian prisoners are run by Palestinian Security.
Now, last night we heard this sustained assault of tank fire, heavy machine gunfire. It went on for hours, and then as dawn broke, helicopter gunships came in. They fired at least seven rockets by my count. We then spent time trying to get to the security headquarters. We were turned back by Israeli troops. It has been a very misty, rainy day here, and driving through the fog, we had come across an armored personnel carrier that turned us around. Eventually we took another route and came out of the fog and found ourselves literally inside the security headquarters.
It's quite a scene around the -- for all intents and purposes, it has been destroyed. It is certainly unusable. There has been a fierce fire in the offices of Jabril Rajoub, the head of Preventative Security. Every window in this probably four-building compound has been broken, shut, blown out by explosions. Severe damage to this compound, it is in an unusable state. There are burned-out cars, cars that appear to have been crushed. And we saw no sign of anybody.
Of course, overnight we were hearing from inside that compound, there were 300 to 400 people inside, including prisoners, including, workers, including workers' children. Israel has said that they wanted to arrest perhaps dozens of what they called known terrorists, perhaps people who had organized suicide bombings who were inside the security headquarters. They wanted to arrest those people. Now, what has happened here is after this sustained assault, there have been injuries. We don't know a final casualty toll at the moment. Some 300 to 350 people were able to leave the compound, under what we believe was a United States brokered cease-fire of sorts, a cease-fire at that particular area. They were allowed to leave. They were taken into Israeli custody and then removed to an Israeli settlement in the West Bank, where we are told they are being interrogated now.
We are not sure of injury counts. We were told by Palestinian sources that there were dozens of wounded. We have not heard of fatalities. I tell you, Leon, I cannot believe that there have not been deaths there. This place has been completely destroyed. There are holes in the walls, exterior walls, interior walls. There is debris all over the place. We were there for some 20, 25 minutes, before Israeli troops -- armed Israeli troops invited us to leave. We were pretty much on our own there. There was one other Arab language television crew there, but no one else had managed to get in there -- certainly an extraordinary sight -- Leon.
HARRIS: Michael, one of the shocking and perhaps inflammatory accusations that have been made of late by the Palestinians is that the Israeli troops that you are observing right now have been preventing ambulances from getting in and getting to those wounded and dead people that you have been talking about here. Have you seen any evidence of that? Have you heard anything about that?
HOLMES: Yes. Early this morning, Leon, at least three ambulances, those Red Crescent, tried to get to the security headquarters. They were stopped, and in fact the seven Red Crescent staff, who were there, were detained. They were searched, asked to take off their shirts, searched and then they were taken into custody, including the head of the Red Crescent in Ramallah.
Now, we were also told that Red Cross ambulances tried to get into the area. They were prevented from doing so.
(AUDIO GAP)
HARRIS: We apologize for that. Obviously, we have lost Michael Holmes' telephone circuit there from Ramallah. Hopefully that is not a sign of something untoward happening to him and his crew. We will try to get back in touch them, and of course, we'll let you know whatever else Michael does have to tell us from that scene.
KAGAN: It sounds like a phone kicking out.
HARRIS: Yes, that's what it sounds like.
KAGAN: Yes.
HARRIS: But you want to -- in that situation, in as highly charged as that atmosphere is right now...
KAGAN: Right. We want to make sure everyone is OK. HARRIS: ... we want to make sure he is OK. We don't want to take any chances there. Michael, if you can hear us, try to get back us to, so we can check you out.
KAGAN: Yes.
HARRIS: OK.
KAGAN: It was remarkable we were able to get as much as we did.
HARRIS: Yes.
KAGAN: Stressing the positive.
Let's move on to Washington, where Secretary of State Colin Powell tells CNN that the United States is fully engaged in trying to find a solution to the Mideast crisis. And he says that he is ready to go to the region when the time is right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: These are terrorist activities, and we condemn them. There is no question what they are. They are killing innocent civilians. But Chairman Arafat still has the legitimate role within the Palestinian movement, and we think at this point, it is best to deal with him in that role and see if we can move the process forward rather than to designate him as such.
I am prepared to go anywhere, anytime, when it serves a useful purpose. But I can assure you that I am deeply engaged every day, for hours of the day, as are my colleagues in the Bush administration, to include the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: And those comments coming earlier today on CNN, the secretary of state talking to our Paula Zahn.
Here to help us sort out the Middle East crisis, our military analyst, General Wesley Clark joining us live from Little Rock -- General, good morning -- good to see you.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning, Daryn.
KAGAN: So we have addressed the issue of Secretary of State Powell going or not going. Let's talk about other idea that's floating out there, and that's the idea of U.S. peacekeepers being sent to the area. Some people think this is an answer; others think that this would be a very dangerous option indeed.
CLARK: Well, I think it's an option that would be unlikely to be productive at this point, Daryn.
KAGAN: Why is that?
CLARK: And the reason is that when you put American troops on the ground, you engage the United States directly in whatever is going on in the region. We are not going to be effective at stopping terrorists coming into Israel. The Israelis would then want it to move back into the retaliation. We might be effective with our troops there preventing the Israelis from coming back in, we will have taken the Palestinian side.
Of course this is part -- in the internationalization of this has always been part of the Palestinian strategy. They have wanted international forces in there, because they know that the Israelis can be stopped by international forces. Israel is a government. It has a Knesset. It has uniformed soldiers and policemen, whereas the Palestinians are irregulars. They are not in uniform. It's not exactly a government, and it's not easy to hold it accountable. So...
KAGAN: Well, that might be one reason that people might point out that the Palestinians need protection.
CLARK: Well, in fact, the protection would have to work on both sides, and you can't provide equal protection. We can certainly stop the Israelis from going in. We could not protect the Israelis from the Palestinian suicide bombers, and that, after all, is what the president has said is their legitimate right of self defense, which is why they are going into the Palestinian areas.
KAGAN: And in fact, then, like you would be giving the Palestinians carte blanche.
CLARK: That's the risk, and the United States, then, would be engaged with its military forces, perhaps taking casualties from these forces, certainly taking abuse and becoming a factor, a different kind of a factor in the conflict. I think it is better for us to engage in a broader fashion. We've got Tony Zinni over there. Secretary Powell, the president are engaged. And so what we will need is a consistent policy, and then we'll need to be able to follow a path to resolve this conflict.
But, Daryn, I think it helps to think about it in purely military terms as the fundamentals of conflict. The fundamental is that both sides are using the weapons at their disposal. The Israelis, they have the strong military forces. They have the intelligence books into the Palestinian areas, and they have used these weapons to go into the Palestinian areas. They are trying to, as they say, take out the terrorist infrastructure.
The Palestinians, they have the suicide bombers. They cannot be effective striking the Israeli military forces. They probably would like to, but they can't. So they strike innocent civilians. They have sympathy. They are the underdogs in this. And of course, in the press, the press is there, and public opinion is part of this game. Both sides are appealing to public opinion.
KAGAN: Yes, but unfortunately, it looks like both sides are losing at the same time as well, a solution still seeming far off. General Clark, thanks for your insight this morning -- appreciate it.
CLARK: Thank you, Daryn. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
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