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CNN Live Today

Interview with Martin Indyk, Former U.S. Ambassador to Israel

Aired April 02, 2002 - 13:10   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now for more on Powell and the administration's role in the crisis, CNN White House Correspondent Kelly Wallace, who is in Pennsylvania with the president. Kelly, the president is going there to talk about education, but is he likely to talk about any stepped up action by the United States in the Mideast.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, you know, the president, as is pretty typical when he hits the road, he will be doing a round table with some experts. Today the topic early childhood development. There is when he will likely, most definitely, get questions about the administration's role in the Middle East. That is where we would expect the president to answer those questions. As you just noted, growing, growing criticism, really of the administration's role in the Middle East peace process.

You heard former Secretary of State Madeline Albright, some Democrats on Capitol Hill, many Arab allies very much calling for the U.S. to get more engaged. You know the administration pretty defensive about that, as you said, Secretary Powell saying he is willing to make a trip to the region when it would be useful, and there's something else the administration reacting to, as you and Bill were discussing, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon calling for the Palestinian leader to be sent into exile.

Well, that is something that the Bush White House will not accept. We heard Secretary Powell on CNN earlier this morning saying that he is someone, Mr. Arafat is someone the Israelis will ultimately have to deal with, when they, and hopefully one day, in the Bush White House's view, get back to peace process.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Chairman Arafat is head of the Palestinian Authority, and he is recognized whether you approve of it or not, is the leader of the Palestinian people, and he will be the leader of the Palestinian people whether he is sitting in Ramallah or whether he is sitting in some exile location elsewhere in the Middle East or somewhere in Europe. He will still have that role.

So, it seems to me, let's deal with him where he is, and let's continue to apply pressure to him and other leaders of the Palestinian people to get into the Tenet work plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WALLACE: And Carol, very interesting, what we are seeing from this White House. You know the Bush doctrine, really, the Bush president saying that if you harbor a terrorist, if you help a terrorist, well, you're as guilty as a terrorist. Many administration officials were asking, well, what about the case of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. The message from the president, the secretary of state today, is that Yasser Arafat is someone who has indicated he is committed to the peace process, and so, clearly, some exceptions there. They're hoping, some way, that the two sides can ultimately get back to cease-fire talks, and ultimately some way back to the peace table -- Carol.

LIN: But Kelly, we are hearing that there is actually a split within the administration about this, right?

WALLACE: Well, you know, it is always interesting. Administration officials, privately even, will not always want to confirm any split, but it does appear, if you look at what we are hearing from various agencies, when it comes to Secretary of State Colin Powell, the State Department, that is the place we are hearing, mainly from this administration, calls for restraint. More calls for restraint, when it comes to the Israeli Defense Forces in the Palestinian-occupied territories.

When it comes to the White House, Vice President Cheney, the president's National Security Council Adviser Dr. Condoleezza Rice, and even Donald Rumsfeld, the defense secretary, even some comments from Secretary Rumsfeld yesterday. Clearly much more sympathetic, really to what is going on when it comes to the Israelis. Very much believing that, Look, the United States is engaged in a war on terror, war on terrorists around the world, and so the Israelis are taking action to deal with terrorists in their own region.

So somewhat of a different sense in, maybe, emphasis. Administration officials say no split, but clearly lots of discussions behind the scenes in response to this criticism, and response to a stepped up roll and even international calls, Carol, for the United States to come out more publicly and more strongly, urging Israelis to withdrawal very soon from those occupied territories, Carol.

LIN: So, Kelly, has the White House actually expressed, what are the risks in getting more involved, what are the risks in actually sending Colin Powell or even having President Bush publicly, or in some public manner, directly call Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat?

WALLACE: The risks clearly are that those calls or a trip could end up in failure. That if president bush gets on the phone calling the Israeli prime minister, making his first phone call, he has yet to talk on the phone or meet with the Palestinian leader, that nothing could come of that.

The risk of Secretary of State Colin Powell going to the region the risk could be that there would be more violence. But as you hear from people like former Secretary of State Madeline Albright, many people like Dr. Albright believe the time is now, really, to get more involved. Some people believe the administration's kind of hands-off approach, perhaps in the beginning of the White House, really potentially was a bit of a problem.

So, obviously, they have to weigh every diplomatic move clearly if the situation gets more and more volatile on the ground, you're most likely going to have to see some stepped up -- either diplomatic overture or some new vision to try and get the two sides together, but clearly, most would agree, right now it doesn't appear to be working -- Carol.

LIN: Right. The pressure is on. Thank you very much. Kelly Wallace will be watching for the president's remarks in Philly today.

In the meantime, Bill Hemmer in Jerusalem. It seems like the pressure is on for the president to do more, at least from this end. He has yet to pick up the phone to call Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon or Yasser Arafat directly.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Carol, in our discussions here throughout the Middle East, certainly it is obvious that any sort of negotiating between the two sides is almost nonexistent between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And certainly for those on the outside looking in, even, for that matter, the people living in this region, that is not a good sign at this point.

Let's talk more about it with Martin Indyk, the former U.S. ambassador to Israel. He is our guest now, live in Tel Aviv. And Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time this evening, first of all, and second, you worked here in Israel under the Clinton administration.

Right now, the Bush White House might be a pretty easy target for you. But I'm curious to know, should the White House have stepped into this frame earlier, and was it a mistake, in a sense, to withdraw during the early days of this conflict, going back 12 months now, and essentially saying that it is up to the two sides, the Israelis and the Palestinians, to go ahead and get control and a grip of the situation here.

MARTIN INDYK, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: Well, I also worked for the first six months of the Bush administration under President Bush and Secretary Powell, so I experienced first hand their reluctance to be engaged. I think it was a product, first of all, of the feeling that they shouldn't repeat what President Clinton had done, since Clinton had tried and failed, and therefore it was better not to try at all than to risk failure.

I think the president also reached the judgment early on that neither Ariel Sharon nor Yasser Arafat were prepared to take on their oppositions whether it be Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, or the right wing opposition in Israel, and, therefore, nothing much could be done. And as long as the violence didn't threaten regional instability, the president didn't feel it was necessary for him to getting involved.

Whenever it looked like it was going to spill over and create some regional instability, or, more recently, when it looked like it was going to get in the way of the effort to topple Saddam Hussein, then he changed track and started to engage, but it was not a wholehearted engagement. HEMMER: How about this one? How about this one? You know, Mr. Ambassador, how about this one, though. There are many who say left to their own devices, these two sides might just simply destroy each other, and there needs to be heavy hand, whether it is the big foot of the United States or the big foot of the U.N., it must stay completely engaged at all times.

INDYK: Yes, I think that's exactly right. It is ironical that those words were actually said by Vice President Cheney after his last trip to the Middle East, and the fact of the matter is, I don't know about the heavy hand, but active U.S. engagement, working with Israel and the Palestinians to try to get them to take steps to stop the violence, steps they've already agreed to, is the only way in which they are going to be able to get out of this crisis, and when the United States engages in that way, it gives cover and explanation to the leaders for doing the difficult things which politically are expensive for them at home in terms of confronting their opposition.

HEMMER: Two questions: how does Anthony Zinni spend his day here in Jerusalem, and would you send Colin Powell to the region at some time very soon?

INDYK: Well, I think that the posture at the moment is going to wait and see how this latest campaign by the Israelis to root out the infrastructure of terrorism runs its course. There was an effort by the United States, I think a successful effort, to avoid a disastrous confrontation in Beitunya (ph) just outside of Ramallah last night and this morning, which led to, I believe, the surrender of some of the people that Israel is seeking, in Jabril Rajoub's headquarters. But essentially, the United States, at this point, has not reached the judgment that their active intervention is going to be helpful in terms of resolving the matter.

Basically, what they face now is a situation where Yasser Arafat appears not to be prepared to issue orders to stop the fighting, to accept a cease-fire, and on the other side, Ariel Sharon has decided that he has no option but to meet the terrorism with force. As long as the parties are engaged in that kind of clash of wills, it is difficult for the United States to take some effective action.

On the other hand, if the United States doesn't come in and actively engage in trying to set the constraints on this crisis, it can spiral out of control. So I think it is very important that Zinni is on the ground here. I think it is important that Secretary Powell is ready to come out.

But, at the moment, and I believe it's coming soon, that the parties recognize that they cannot achieve their objectives, then we are going to have to intervene and intervene not only by insisting on a cease-fire that is respected and implemented, monitoring that cease- fire, making sure that both sides live up to that commitment, but then we are going to have to try to put the process back on a political track, rebuild confidence, and try to get a pathway to a political solution, even though that seems very far off at the moment.

HEMMER: All right. Mr. Ambassador, thank you. Martin Indyk live in Tel Aviv.

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