Return to Transcripts main page

Q&A with Jim Clancy

Middle East Crisis Intensifies

Aired April 02, 2002 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM CLANCY, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat openly discussed, as he remains a virtual prisoner in his own headquarters. Meantime, Israeli tanks and troops expanded the military crack down on the West Bank the government says aims to round up terrorists.

Palestinians describe the Israeli operation as a campaign of state's terror. As the crisis in the Middle East continues, we turn to you, the viewers, on this edition of Q&A. The Middle East crisis: You ask the questions. Together, we'll hear the answers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(on camera): Hello and welcome again to Q&A. I'm Jim Clancy.

In the Middle East hundreds of people inside a Palestinian security compound in Ramallah have (UNINTELLIGIBLE). That compound had been pounded by Israeli forces in a campaign to dismantle what the government calls the Palestinian terror infrastructure. There were office workers, prisoners, and some women and children inside the compound. Some are reported to be wounded, most of them now being questioned. Israel saying it's looking for known terrorists.

This military action comes after six Palestinian suicide bombing in six days that killed or wounded Israeli civilians. On the other side of the city of Ramallah, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat remains inside his headquarters after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon suggested he could leave on a one-way ticket into exile. Mr. Sharon says he's received calls from world leaders voicing concerns about Yasser Arafat's plight. The Israeli leader says he told them that they could send a helicopter and simply take Arafat away. Palestinian officials say their leader is not going to accept any exile, and Sharon's comments were, in their words, a joke.

There are more questions and answers surrounding the latest tensions in the Middle East. And you've been sending us e-mails filled with many of those questions. Tonight, we're going to try to answer some of them.

First, let's go to Jerusalem, where CNN's Ben Wedeman is standing by. And the question so often to you is the latest on the ground. I know that the fighting on the West Bank has been pulsating through the day. What's the latest?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT, JERUSALEM: Well, Jim, it appears, at the moment, that there is some intense fighting quite near here in the Palestinian town of Bethlehem, just south of Jerusalem. There are reports of Palestinians inside the Church of the Nativity, the traditional birthplace of Christ. And reports that Israeli armor has come as close as manger square, which is right outside that church. As we know, Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader, remains hold up in his compound, just a couple of rooms there in Ramallah. Apparently, not too much fighting in that area.

As you mentioned, there is the case of preventative security headquarters in Ramallah that was a play - was the focus of another standoff. Apparently, the United States, particularly the Central Intelligence Agency, had some role in working out the deal that allowed for approximately 180 people inside that office to be evacuated. Now, as many as 200 others are now in Israeli custody. Some of those people may be on Israel's wanted list. Jim?

CLANCY: All right. One of the questions that is asked many times of the correspondents that are covering the conflict there, coming from Israel, the question in many e-mails, Ben, saying that we see the coverage of the Palestinians wounded. We see Ben Wedeman and others going to Palestinian hospitals. But we never see them going to Israeli hospitals, looking at Israeli wounded.

WEDEMAN: Well, they would have seen, if they'd been watching over the last three days, Ben Wedeman covering three suicide bombings in Israel in the last three days. We do cover these events and we do consider them extremely important. And, obviously, our viewers do want to see what is happening. And we do our best to cover both sides. And, therefore, we always here - for instance, when we go over to the Palestinian side, we're accused of being pro-Israeli. On the Israeli side, we're accused of being pro-Palestinian. We do sincerely try our very best to provide balanced coverage of the story. Unfortunately, you cannot please everybody all the time.

CLANCY: We know that, Ben. Here's another question. Why has Israel restricted journalists and observers from being present during the military operations in the West Bank? Is Israel afraid of being caught? That's from Rema (ph) in Saudi Arabia.

WEDEMAN: Well, this evening, I was speaking with an Israeli spokesman, and he says one of the reasons is that they do not feel that the presence of cameras is helpful in those situations, that cameras tend - or journalist tend to inflame the situation by their very presence. Now, I don't necessarily accept that suggestion, but that is what one Israeli official is saying.

Another reason is for safety. We have seen many journalists wounded in this conflict, myself included. We've seen one journalist recently killed in Ramallah. It is a dangerous area. Now, whether Israel is sincerely concerned about our safety or not, that's up to debate. I don't think they do want to see journalists killed or wounded in the action. But there is a suspicion among many journalist that there are certain instances where the Israeli army doesn't want the media to see what they're up to.

In fact, we know that in certain cases, there were regrets within the Israeli army that they allowed Israeli journalists access to these operations. There's one case in which an Israeli television crew interviewed an Israeli soldier. I believe it was in Bethlehem. He was sitting inside a Palestinian house, I believe in a refugee camp, in which he said, what am I doing here? He didn't seem to know. It was embarrassing. And, therefore, it appears the Israeli army isn't even providing opportunities for Israeli media to cover these events.

So I think there is a certain element, for lack of a better word, embarrassment, or not a desire for some of these operations to be fully covered. Jim, I hope I answered that question.

CLANCY: Well, you've answered as fully as I think anybody could because, once again, in a lot of these, it's a judgment call. You're really trying to judge someone's motives. That's very difficult to do. A final question, Ben, and I don't know whether you can answer it or not. Henry (ph) in Israel wanted to know more about these documents that were found purporting to show the Al Aqsa Brigades asking Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority for specific funding for suicide bombs and detonators. Is that a smoking gun?

WEDEMAN: Well, certainly, they did show those documents today, documents - one document in particular submitted to Fuad al-Shobaky, who was the Chief Financial Officer, so to speak, of the Palestinian Authority. This is a request. We don't know if the request was agreed upon. But certainly, that document was made available. And we did see it. Now, smoking gun, I don't know if you can describe it as that. But it is a document that we should take serious. It was only revealed today, so we haven't really had an opportunity to fully investigate it. But it is a claim, a suggestion that we do take seriously and will follow up on. But I don't know if it's quite - you can describe that as a smoking gun quite yet. Jim?

CLANCY: All right. Ben Wedeman, as always, on watch there, this time in Jerusalem, but elsewhere has been in Gaza and the West Bank. And, Ben, thanks for sharing your expertise with us and with all our viewers, answering their questions as forthrightly as anybody could.

We're going to take a short break here. That's the latest from Jerusalem. We're going to have more of your questions. And this time, we'll be putting them to the representatives on both sides of the conflict. Don't go away. This will be interesting.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Welcome back to Q&A. I'm Jim Clancy. We're doing a special program today, trying to telegraph a lot of your messages, your questions to some of the key players in the Middle East right now. We're joined by Emmanuel Nachson. He's Israel's Deputy Foreign Ministry Spokesman. And then from Kyro (ph), we're also joined by Palestinian Cabinet Minister, Nabil Sha'ath.

Nabil Sha'ath, a question to you from Rome, Jeremy, a question asking, there must be other Palestinian leaders, other than Yasser Arafat, who have different opinions on a vision for the future of the region. Why do we only hear from Mr. Arafat?

NABIL SHA'ATH, PALESTINIAN CABINET MINISTER: Mr. Arafat is the democratically elected leader of the Palestinian people. He was elected in Palestine with supervision from the whole international community. It was probably one of the very best opportunities to see what the people of Palestine wanted, and the chose him. And he has really been not only an elected leader, but an important political figure that has symbolized the Palestinian's struggle for freedom and independence. Nobody can change that.

CLANCY: Well, Ariel Sharon - to follow up on that question, Ariel Sharon is suggesting that he could provide a one-way ticket for Yasser Arafat out of Ramallah, but he could never return. The Palestinian's reaction?

SHA'ATH: I think Mr. Sharon needs a one-way ticket to go back to where he was born outside Palestine. I think Yasser Arafat is a Palestinian with ancestry that goes back thousands of years in Palestine. And I think it's only the Palestinian people who should decide whether Yasser Arafat stays or leaves and, certainly, Yasser Arafat himself. Yasser Arafat will stay and will fight to stay, leading the Palestinian people back to freedom, independence and peace.

CLANCY: All right. Let's go over to Emanuel Nachson, who's joining us from Jerusalem. And a question that came in from Ikram in Pakistan asking this: Why does Israel believe that its military actions will stop strikes by the Palestinian underground? How can Yasser Arafat do anything if his security forces are destroyed?

EMMANUEL NACHSON, ISRAELI DEP. FOREIGN MIN. SPOKESMAN: I think the answer to that is quite simple. Less than two years ago, we proposed peace to the Palestinians and they said no. And instead of peace, they launched against us a vicious war of terror. Under those circumstances and particularly after the last wave of terror during the last weeks, we do not have any other choice but to fight back. There is a limit to what a country can take, in terms of victims. We were ready to wage because ...

CLANCY: The question though is how do you expect him to control terrorism when he's a virtual prisoner? It's saying, how can he do anything if his security forces are destroyed?

NACHSON: Well, I think that we have already reached a conclusion. And we have ample proof of that, that Yasser Arafat himself is the head of the organizations of terror. He is, himself, if one may say, the chief terrorist. And those documents mentioned before give ample proof to that, that in Arafat's headquarters terrorists' actions were planned. And falsified money was printed in order to be used by terrorists, et cetera, et cetera. We know that Arafat is at the head of the organizations of terror. And by isolating him, we believe that we contribute in a very significant manner to the fight against terror.

CLANCY: All right. Let's go back to Nabil Sha'ath and ask you a question. And I know that you are there in Cairo. There will be some high level talks that are taking place there. W. Boonma asked this question. It doesn't say where he comes from. Why have the Arab states taken no action to solve the situation in the Middle East?

SHA'ATH: Well, the Arab States met in a summit just actually ended 24 ours before the Israeli onslaught and devastating invasion of the Palestinian territories. In that summit, they made a historic offer to the Israelis for peace, with a very simple equation. The Arab world was ready to recognize Israel, have a peace treaty with it, end the conflict, and have peace and security with both, with normal relations, if Israel were to pull back and out of the territories it occupied after the fourth of June 1967 and provide a fair solution to the refugee problem.

And 24 hours later, the Israelis attacked and occupied the Palestinian territories, devastating its towns and villages. The Arab states now are thinking of what to do. They don't want to renege on their promise and their offer. But they are meeting tomorrow in Cairo to figure ways of supporting the Palestinians and standing against the new Israeli aggression.

CLANCY: Emmanuel Nachson, a question coming in from London asking this about the situation, the negotiations: Since Gaza and the West Bank are internationally regarded as occupied territories, is Israel willing to relinquish the territories to the Palestinians in return for peace and security for Israel and its people?

NACHSON: Well, we have stated repeatedly that the basis for negotiations are the UN Resolutions 242 and 338. We are quite ready to negotiate with the Palestinians. And as a matter of fact, at the Camp David Summit, we were ready to propose almost all the territory to the Palestinians. And it is the Palestinians who said no and preferred, instead, the option of terrorism and violence.

I would like to say in parentheses that if there is a military operation now, contrary to what Mr. Sha'ath says, it is because of the Passover massacre and the various massacres that occurred in Israel during the last days. And it doesn't have anything to do with the Arab Summit. Generally speaking, we are ready to discuss peace with the Palestinians. We have extended our hands in peace. And we continue to do so because the Palestinian people are not our enemy. It is the Palestinian terror who is our enemy.

CLANCY: A question, and there, Emmanuel raised it. Nabil Sha'ath, this question coming to us from Numan in the United Kingdom asking: What is the motivation of a suicide bomber to obliterate themselves while committing mass murder? Is it from desperation?

SHA'ATH: It is desperation. I think people have, by and large, in Palestinian territories, lost fear of death because there is not the real promise of better life and peace and freedom in the future. They are atomized. They are separate groups of people. They are individuals who are willing to die for what they consider to be the cause. They are incapable of stopping Israeli tanks. They don't have any arms or equipment to fight a regular war. And they find that this is the way to fight back. Every time Mr. Sharon makes an escalation of invasion of the Palestinians, humiliation, more siege and harsher life, he grows more of these people who are willing to die. He has really turned a Palestinian into fighter, which was really kids throwing stones at Israeli soldiers, into a deadly confrontation in which, unfortunately, death and destruction has been the result on both sides.

CLANCY: Emmanuel Nachson, let me ask you to weigh in on this one. What do you think is the motivation of the suicide bombers?

NACHSON: Well, I certainly do not share Mr. Sha'ath's point of view. I think that what we are seeing here is a mogul challenge to the civilization as we know it. What we see here is a cult of blood and death that I would compare directly to cannibalism or to the pagan cults. Those are people that worship death, that do not hesitate to send 13-year-old boys or 16-year-old girls to their death, knowing fully well that this will spread desolation all around, that people will die. They do not care if their victims are young or old, women, children, whole families. We have had whole families wiped out. Why? For nothing. It is a cult of death. It is something vicious. It is something profoundly vicious. And it is a menace to civilization.

CLANCY: Is it as our viewers said, though? Is it desperation too, Emmanuel?

NACHSON: No, I don't believe that it's desperation because don't forget, the Palestinians could have had already an independence day. They could have been living now side by side with the State of Israel. We could be living in excellent neighborly relations. I think that one has to see it also in the broader perspective. Everyone knows what happened on September 11th. And I think that it has to do with this viscous fanaticism of the fundamentalist organizations. And as I said before, this is a challenge to our civilization.

CLANCY: Nabil Sha'ath, a question that came in from Asama - I don't have a location for Asama - but asking very simply: Should the United Nations take a stronger position in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict?

SHA'ATH: Absolutely, Jim. The United Nations is the place that should deal with international conflict and with threats to peace. And if you just allow me a rebuttal to this Mr. Emmanuel here, the question of a cult of cannibalism and all of these horror stories that attempt just to create image to victimize the victim. This is the typical blaming of the victim.

It is the Israelis who occupy Palestinian territories, not the other way around. And it is that occupation that has lasted for so long that created that situation. It is a country that has an atomic bomb and the fourth largest army in the world attacking people who have very little means to fight them back. It's $100 billion economy fighting and destroying a $3 billion economy, that of the Palestinians, keeping them in servitude. And this joke about what was offered in Camp David, coming back again and again. Mr. Emmanuel was not in Camp David. I was. The Israelis in Camp David offered, at best, 81 percent of the West Bank without any sovereignty, without borders, without the capital Jerusalem, without the solution to the refugee problem. All of this in Camp David could have been excellent as a first step. It improved in Taba, but then comes Mr. Sharon and destroys everything. I think we should stop the myths for a change, Jim.

CLANCY: All right. Let me ask that same question, though, to Emmanuel Nachson about the UN involvement. Should they become more involved right here? Israel has resisted that, haven't they?

NACHSON: Well, from our experience in the peace process, we have realized that it is much better to have bilateral and direct negotiations. This is what we wish to have with the Palestinians. It is not a matter of resisting a UN involvement. It's simply a necessity to speak directly to our neighbors because it is with them that we want to reach peace, not with anyone else. And we are ready, within the framework of the Tenant and Mitchell plans, to go back to the negotiating table.

But for this, we need basic conditions. And we don't have them here. What we have here is a wave of vicious terror. There is no occupation. Israel wants to live side by side with the Palestinians. We have declared our willingness to have an independent Palestinian state. Occupation is a fallacy. It's a pretense (ph). There is not occupation. We are speaking here about a viscous wave of terror, which is unfortunately the Palestinian leadership's response to our offer of peace.

CLANCY: All right, gentlemen, to close this out, I have a question from Switzerland, Marina asking this. I want to put this to both of you. I've got less than a minute left, so be very brief. Nabil Sha'ath, you first. The situation in the Middle East has come down to this: you killed one of me, so I will kill one of you. Is that it?

SHA'ATH: No, that's really not it. You occupy my country and destroy my economy and humiliate my people. Get out! And then we can have peace based on equality and freedom. There is no place for occupation.

CLANCY: Emmanuel, very briefly. Emmanuel.

NACHSON: Well, obviously, my response is different. Stop terrorism. Stop terrorism immediately. Reach a cease-fire. Stop shooting at us. Stop killing our children. And then we will go back to the negotiating table and hopefully there is something to talk about and we can reach a happy end.

CLANCY: Emmanuel Nachson, Nabil Sha'ath, I thank you both for being with us this day on Q&A. And thanks especially to our viewers this day for your questions that you've given us on this Middle East crisis. That's Q&A. I'm Jim Clancy.

END

TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com