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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
How Are Suicide Bombers Created?; Can John Walker's Attorneys Prove He Was Tortured?
Aired April 2, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. Americans in Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank are being warned they could be in danger. That travel warning coming from the State Department. And, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is being told, if he chooses to leave town, he travels on a one-way ticket.
We'll go live to Jerusalem and hear from CNN's Christiane Amanpour in just a minute. I want to hear from you, as well. Call me at 1-800-310-4cnn or e-mail talkback@cnn.com. Now, take a look at what else we're talking about today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Make that six bombings in six days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Israeli TV is reporting another suicide bombing...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My God, who does it? What is the moral ground for it? What is the justification for it?
NEVILLE: Inside the mind of a suicide bomber. What are they thinking as they strap on a bomb and know their lives are over? Who trains these young people to die?
Also, can lawyers for American Taliban John Walker Lindh prove he was tortured by his American captors?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are people going to believe John Walker Lindh, or will they believe our men and women in uniform who are responsible for his care and custody during the period?
NEVILLE: Who are you going to believe?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OK, let's start with today's developments in the Middle East. CNN's Christiane Amanpour joins us live from Jerusalem. Also with us is CNN State Department correspondent, Andrea Koppel.
Christiane, it appears that the violence is increasing over there, and it looks like all bets are off for peace talks. Could you fill us in on the latest?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes, in terms of talks, there does appear to be no real light at the end of the tunnel in that case, there are no active talks, we are being told, by all sides, between the two sides which matter most. And of course, both the Palestinians and in some cases some of the Israelis are calling on a outside intervention.
Right now in the words of the chief Palestinian negotiator today, they said that Palestinians and Israelis need help, we need the United States he said, to intervene and to really get engaged in the situation. While that is going on, this is the fifth day of the Israeli military invasion of various parts of the occupied territories, the latest major city they have occupied is Bethlehem in the West Bank and at the moment, we are getting reports from Bethlehem that there is an ongoing situation developing.
These are from witnesses who have been talking to reporters by phone and other ways from inside of the city. I must say it is extremely hard to get verifiable information or independently verifiable information because it is closed there, and apart from the few people in there right now, it is hard for outsiders to get in and verify.
But what they are saying is that Palestinian militias have gone into the Church of the Nativity, which is the traditional birth place of Jesus Christ, they have gone in there asking the clergy people in there for sanctuary. This according to a witness on the scene. They are conflicting reports on as to whether there is actually a battle going on between the militants inside and the Israeli forces outside.
At the same time, Palestinians accuse Israeli forces of quote, executing or assassinating all Palestinian men in Bethlehem earlier today. These apparently among the most wanted on Israel's hit list, members of the al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, who as you know, is a militant organization linked with Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement.
In Ramallah there has also been a lot of military activity today. There are the cleanup or rather the ongoing operation into the office and compound of the security chief there, which started early this morning. Israeli forces basically blasting their way into the compound and trying to search for what they say are some of the most wanted people who have taken refuge there. Of course the Palestinians are denying that any terrorists or Israeli-wanted people are in there. Back to you, Arthel.
NEVILLE: Now Andrea, I want to bring you in now, because of course there is growing criticism that the White House must step in, do something fast. Do it now, and Christiane also hinted to that. What are you hearing?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is certainly what you hear from the Arab world, many Arab leaders have spoken both with President Bush over the weekend and with Secretary of State Colin Powell, and are urging the administration to get more actively involved. What does that mean? It means to send Secretary of State Powell perhaps, to send Vice President Dick Cheney or to invite both Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon and some Arab leaders here to Washington or at least somewhere in the U.S. to sit down and try to step back from the violence and the fighting, and to get these two sides to talk directly with one another.
NEVILLE: And then, Christiane, what about that motion, that if Arafat does leave Israel that he can -- Sharon is saying great, talk a one-way ticket out, don't come back.
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, that essentially is a non-starter according to the majority of the body politic here, and certainly as you have heard from the United States, Secretary Powell dismissed that notion out of hand. This is not a new thought from Ariel Sharon, who is engaged in a continuation of a long and bitter and personal feud with Yasser Arafat, and who in any event has concluded that Yasser Arafat is not a partner for peace.
So, he was making those comment to reporters earlier today and everybody has said that that it simply not going to happen, and certainly the Palestinians are saying that Yasser Arafat is not going to leave his compound voluntarily.
NEVILLE: And Christiane, you know, they are saying over there, yes, bring in Colin Powell, but the situation seems to be so chaotic, and Colin Powell on this end saying this is not the proper time for him to go in, because things seems to be out of hand. Do you really feel that his presence can make a difference at this point?
AMANPOUR: Well, let me spell out the logic for you if I can. It's obviously, as Andrea was correct in saying, that the Arab leaders have been calling on the Bush Administration to get more involved. But it is not just the Arab leaders, it is a host of Europeans, it's many people not only in this region, but in the United States as well.
Some of the most respected members of the body politic in the United States, including long-time media observers and pundits are basically saying enough now. It is enough for the United States, of sitting on the sidelines doing nothing.
And those who believe the U.S. has a role to play, point to the many, many years of active U.S. involvement where even though the U.S. was unable to force a solution, force a settlement, just the very fact that the United States, the only country with any significant leverage on both sides, just the fact that the United States was involved in a process, a peace process, kept the violence not -- didn't absent the violence, but kept it at a more containable and controllable level.
So that's what people are saying, and certainly, I tell you, some rather dramatic accusations are coming out from some very respected American pundits, basically saying that the administration sitting on the sidelines at the beginning, you know, from the beginning of this administration, which is more than a year now, is more than just benign neglect and they recall the beginning of the first Bush Administration, which sat on the sidelines, said it did not have a dog in the fight, about Yugoslavia.
Failed to take any small steps to intervene and try to stop at a moment where it was possible to stop the escalation of violence and we saw after that, five-six years of war with hundreds and thousands of people dead. So those are the comparisons that people are making right now and urging this administration to use its unique influence and experience to try at least to have a process going here.
NEVILLE: Andrea, is political punditry at play here?
KOPPEL: Well, there are political pundits, as Christiane mentioned, who are speaking out about this, but I don't think it has to do really with any sort of ideological stance right now. I think it is very practical as far as these Middle East experts are concerned, former U.S. officials, expressing their views.
They are saying for the Bush Administration to keep saying these -- the words you know, it has become, it's become a broken record. We hear they need to abide by the Tenet plan, this is the cease-fire deal. They need to abide by the Mitchell plan, this is the political process, to try to get them back to the peace table. What does that mean?
The administration, according to the critics, is just repeating these hollow words, and rather than just engaging in rhetorical diplomacy, these folks are saying the Bush Administration needs to get its hands dirty and if it does not act now, then this is sort of -- almost like watching this happen in slow motion, many people predict that this is really going to be a disaster.
NEVILLE: Andrea, excuse me, I want to move on for a second here, and talk about the warning from the State Department for Americans in Israel, if you can give us details on that?
KOPPEL: Sure, the State Department updated, and this is almost common sense to think that it would, updated what is known as the travel warning. This is for all American citizens who either may be in Israel or may be thinking of going to Israel, the West Bank or Gaza during this period of time to obviously be on alert, to vary their travel patterns and what not, and to be in touch with the U.S. consulate.
I think that most people today would recognize that it is an incredibly dangerous situation there. We have seen the pictures on the television in the West Bank, Gaza and of course in Israel with all of the threats of suicide bombings.
NEVILLE: It is indeed a dangerous situation and Christiane, I ask you, how are the citizens holding up?
AMANPOUR: As you can imagine on both sides it is a year or more of total trauma that has affected both sides. On the Israeli side you have the suicide bombings that happen with alarming frequency, and ever since this military operation has started on Friday, it is almost like one a day going on, today so far, nothing. But on the other side, the Palestinian side the same thing, the trauma of right now, ordinary homes and villages and towns being encircled, apartments being taken over for the Israeli military positions, arrests being made, basically 35 years of occupation, which traumatizes a society. And so you've got an increasing fear, bitterness, hatred, distrust on both sides developing. It is a very, very sad situation and pure human in personal terms.
NEVILLE: Indeed. Jason, from Ohio, your thoughts are?
JASON: I understand the Arab world pushing for the United States to be involved in this and taking a leadership role with the Israelis because of our relationship with them. My concern though is that their world is requiring us to take the great leadership role, but what is the Arab world doing with Palestinians? Why are they not taking leadership to deal with Yasser Arafat or to negotiate some kind of compromise with us?
NEVILLE: Christiane or Andrea?
KOPPEL: Well, I think that the Arab world -- has taken a role.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Christiane?
AMANPOUR: No, go ahead.
NEVILLE: All right. Andrea you go.
KOPPEL: Can't say ladies first. The Arab world to a certain degree has taken somewhat of a role -- you can debate whether or not it is a leading role, just last week there was the Arab summit, 22 Arab nations gathered and signed off on an historic agreement to recognize Israel in exchange for Israel pulling back its forces to the borders before the 1967 war.
Having said that, the Bush Administration would like, whether it be the Egyptian president, the Saudi crowned prince or what not to make phone calls, to perhaps go in person and to try to urge -- obviously right now, it is not possible to go in person to the Israeli territories -- but to use their influence with Yasser Arafat to get him to do what Israel and the U.S. have been demanding, which is to arrest those members of his security forces.
But you know, the Arab leaders are also in a very difficult position because their people are on the streets demonstrating violently in some instances due to what is happening right now in Ramallah, with Israeli tanks and forces there.
NEVILLE: Well we are out of time unfortunately, but I want to go on record saying to Andrea and Christiane how much I enjoy so much having the two of you on TALKBACK LIVE. Is a pleasure for me. Thank you for joining us here today. And one more programming note; Christiane Amanpour hosts "LIVE FROM JERUSALEM," tonight at 8 Eastern. Don't forget to watch that, and a little later, does this photo of Taliban member John Walker Lindh make you more sympathetic to him? His lawyers think it will. We will find out why and we will be back in a moment.
Still ahead, inside the minds of suicide bombers. What makes them willing to end their lives? And why have women become agents of terror?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Murderers are not martyrs. Targeting civilians is immoral, whatever the excuse. Terrorists have declared war on civilization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: The making of a suicide bomber, coming up next on TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back.
We have watched in horror as one after another suicide bomber leave behind death and destruction on their missions of terror. They are revered as martyrs despised as terrorists, and for most of us they are a mystery.
Over the past 18 months, a steady stream of suicide bombers has delivered themselves in the name of Islam or Palestine. Some of their victims are women and children, and lately women are putting themselves on this alter of terror. What makes them do it?
We are going to try to get inside of the mind of a owe suicide bomber with Doctor Jerrold Post, professor of psychiatry, political psychology, and international affairs at George Washington University. He directed the Center for the Analysis of Personality and Political Behavior for the CIA. And for the past couple of years, Dr. Post has been interviewing Palestinian terrorists from such groups as Hamas.
Also with us is Lisa Beyer, foreign editor for "TIME" magazine. She was "TIME'S" Jerusalem bureau chief during the '90s. Lisa, why do they do it?
LISA BEYER, "TIME": Well, I think that the profile of the suicide bomber has changed pretty radically in recent years. During the years I was covering the Palestinians the suicide bomber was a very specific person. He was a young male, he was unmarried, often unemployed and certainly a religious extremist who believed that if he carried out this act he would go to paradise, have 72 virgins and meet with God's goodwill.
But since then we have seen that suicide bombing has basically gone mainstream in the territories. Now the suicide bomber could be just about anybody. It could be the girl next door, as we saw recently when a 16-year-old girl blew up herself in a Jerusalem supermarket.
I think that now even secular people in the territories, people who are basically nationalists without being religious extremists are getting involved in the act, and essentially Palestinians have discovered that this is a very effective tool. It is the first thing that has made the Israelis with military superiority feel terribly insecure. And basically everybody wants to get in on the act now.
NEVILLE: Samuel, I would like to hear your thoughts.
SAMUEL: My thought is this, about them, that this takes loyalty and they are real loyal to their leader and the person who is in charge of them. And I think it comes from their foundation from the early beginning, and because if you are not loyal to anything, you will not be loyal to anybody else.
NEVILLE: Your question is?
SAMUEL: My question is why they are so loyal to the leader?
NEVILLE: Dr. Post? Lisa? Who wants to answer that?
DR. JERROLD POST, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: The aspect about this loyalty is particularly important when they are in a charismatic movement, but in fact, for many of those in Israel, who are doing this, they are facing a rather bleak horizon and are caught up in what is now not individual despair, but a social movement. In fact, they are screening out emotionally disturbed people for those who volunteer for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, whatsoever to make sure they are committed to the cause.
NEVILLE: So, Dr. Post, is there a lot of brainwashing going on?
POST: We have interviewed the commanders of the suicidal terrorism squads. And when the individuals do volunteer themselves or are recruited, once they are in their hands, in fact, they are not released, including sleeping with them the night before.
And, basically -- but they are finding willing audiences -- they are conveying to their charges that they can bring significance to their lives; they can join the cause of martyrs. Their families will get prestige. And their families will get financial rewards as well.
NEVILLE: And who supplies that money for those financial rewards you are talking about?
POST: Well, that comes from multiple sources. In fact, our old friend Saddam Hussein of Iraq was contributing to it, to families of martyrs.
NEVILLE: Maddux (ph), your thoughts are?
MADDUX: Well, it seems to me that this goes beyond leaders in that particular region. Suicide bombers have decided, for whatever reason, that they have nothing to live for. They feel subjugated. They feel trampled on. And they are willing to die for their freedom.
It seems to me I recall reading somewhere in the history book where Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death." Well, we are seeing a true form of what that Patrick Henry said. They are telling you: "Give me liberty. Give me my freedom. Give me my country or give me death."
NEVILLE: Lisa, what are your thoughts on that?
BEYER: I think that there is a important distinction between what the Palestinian suicide bombers are doing and the notion, "Give me liberty or give me death," because the Palestinian suicide bombers are not only killing themselves or allowing themselves to be killed; they're going out and killing...
NEVILLE: Innocent people.
BEYER: Lots of innocent people. So it's not only suicide. It's also murder. And you have to look at it in that fashion.
NEVILLE: I have to take a break right now, but we want to talk about this a little bit more when we come back. And how do you turn a young person into a suicide bomber?
We'll find out about recruitment next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: We just showed an e-mail from Ryan in New York who said that suicide bombers are basically retaliating or responding to a lifetime of oppression and they are not doing this for fun.
And right now, I want to bring in a caller, Mike from Minnesota, in on this discussion about suicide bombers. We're trying to get into the mind-set a suicide bomber, why they do it.
And, Mike, you are calling us from Minnesota. You were born in Jerusalem. You are Palestinian. Can you share some insight?
CALLER: Yes, I wanted to say that I feel very sad when I hear there's a suicide bombing. My heart goes out to any civilian that dies.
But you have to look at the overall cause: 40 years of occupation, 40 years we are treated less than a human in an apartheid- like state where you are not even treated as a fellow human. They kill you. They demolish your homes. They shoot up your women as they are going to hospitals. This has to stop. And, in order to stop it, give the Palestinians their freedom. Give them their state, and the radicals will cease to exist.
NEVILLE: Thanks, Mike.
And, Lisa, I want to bring you in now, because that is something that we can't understand, or Americans cannot understand, because these people are living -- it's all they know: confinement in a war situation. So, therefore, at a relatively young age of 16, 18, what have you, the question we ask would be: How can they harbor such hatred? Help us understand that. Actually, you know what? Mike took care of that. What I want to ask you, Lisa, is: How do they get people to -- how do they recruit these suicide bombers?
BEYER: Well, it used to be fairly tricky.
When it was basically a monopoly of the Islamic radical groups, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, they would look for people who were not actually necessarily involved in the organization, because those people tended to be on watch lists that the Israelis would look out for them as they crossed the borders, or would try and arrest them.
They would look for people who they might recruit who, again, were not necessarily part of the activities of the groups, but who were highly religious, who were very involved in the mosques, for example. And then they would approach them and basically convince them that there was a higher purpose and that they could serve a greater cause by taking this action.
My understanding, though, from my Palestinian colleague in the West Bank today is that it is not necessary to go to such elaborate lengths anymore to recruit suicide bombers. It is not necessary to indoctrinate them. It is not necessary to spend a long time training them, as it has been in the past. It is a much more simplified process now of people putting their hands up and essentially being given crude explosive devices and sent on their way.
NEVILLE: But, if so, that means -- can they go to the coffee shop and recruit people or do they show up to a meeting place? Do you know?
BEYER: Well, I don't think that they go to coffee shops and look for people. I think it is more that someone will get it in their minds that this is something they want to do.
It is not unknown within Palestinian society who is involved in the various militant organizations. It is very easy to find the person who can get you to the person who can get you to the person who can send you on your way. And it's basically people putting their hands up.
POST: Let me add to that.
NEVILLE: Sure. Go ahead, Dr. Post.
POST: Yes.
We have examined this question fairly closely. And for many, it is a personal connection and are approached either by a friend or, indeed, older relative. One of the individuals we interviewed in fact had five older brothers in the organization. That is the secular path to recruitment.
For those who are moving into the radical Islamic groups, the mosque plays a quite central role. And many of them have had their attention focused by quite radical clerics calling for action and have, in the mosque, volunteered themselves and then pointed towards someone who could move them to the organization.
NEVILLE: Dr. Post, I want to get some comments from Ian here.
What are your thoughts?
IAN: How do they get kids? And why do they do younger people?
POST: Well, in many ways, you have a situation of generational transmission of hatred, where the pain and hurt of the parents is passed on to their children early on.
A number of years ago, I had the opportunity of serving as an expert witness in the trial of an Abu Nidal terrorist who had been responsible for the skyjacking of an EgyptAir plane over Kuwait. And it was quite remarkable for him. His mother had been deprived of her family lands in Haifa during the 1948 war, went to her father's farm
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Dr. Post, excuse me. I am going to jump in for a moment.
And I don't think he can hear me.
POST: ... and are terrorists to be.
NEVILLE: Can someone let Dr. Post that I am trying to jump in? I think his earpiece fell out.
Excuse me, sir. I want to get Shirley -- because we understand your point that you were making. And it is definitely a great point.
But I want to get Shirley in here before I run out of time and get your comments.
SHIRLEY: Isn't it true that they are taught from birth to hate Americans, to hate Jews, to hate Christians, to hate anybody that is not of the Muslim faith? And it is very easy, when someone is born in that position and, again, growing up in such terrible conditions that it only multiplies...
NEVILLE: Lisa, would you like to answer that?
BEYER: Well, I think that's quite a generalization that all Muslims are brought up to hate anyone who is not a Muslim. Of course, 10 percent of the Palestinians themselves are Christians. And there is a fair amount of Christian-Muslim unity in terms of the Palestinian cause.
Yes, there is a great deal of ethnic hatred in that part of the world. You also certainly find it within Israel. But I think that it is better to look at this situation that we are in not as a simple matter of hatred. It is a war on the part of the Palestinians for national liberation. The Palestinians don't have an army with which to fight that war. And their chosen army of the moment is the suicide bomber. NEVILLE: Well, we are out of time at the moment.
Dr. Post, can you hear me now?
POST: Yes.
NEVILLE: I thank you very much for joining us. And, Lisa Beyer, thank you as well. And we'll see you again on TALKBACK LIVE.
And up next up next: Could this picture we're going to show you now of John Walker Lindh turn the tide? What do you think should happen to the American Taliban? Get those e-mails going or give me a call. I'll be waiting to hear from you -- back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
American Taliban John Walker Lindh doesn't look like the same man who was taken into custody at a prison in Mazar-e-Sharif last November. He showed up at yesterday's discovery hearing clean-shaven and a bit heavier. But his attorneys hope this photo of him -- this one right here -- will help convince the court he was mistreated by the American military. They are trying to have Lindh's confession tossed out as he faces charges of conspiracy to kill Americans.
Our guests today are criminal defense attorney Stanley Cohen -- he's represented the head of Hamas as well as members of the IRA -- and former Navy defense attorney David Sheldon. He's represented people in military tribunals, in court-martials.
Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.
STANLEY COHEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you.
DAVID SHELDON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you.
NEVILLE: Great.
Stanley Cohen, I'll begin with you.
Defense attorneys released the photo. What do you think that is going to do for them?
COHEN: Well, it's not just the photo. You have got to start with the fact that the government announced yesterday that they have essentially no evidence connecting Mr. Lindh to any acts of violence against either the deceased CIA agent or any other American, and conceded to the court, "We have no proof that he picked up a gun and did anything against any American."
So you are left with the statements. They have said all along the statements were involuntary. They have said all along the statements were procured in the absence of a right to counsel. The government has said, "We treated him fine." We now see a young man who, at one point, had a lot of morphine in him, who was recovering from a gunshot wound, who was taped to a gurney naked, blindfolded before an interrogation.
So I think, to the extent that the government started out with a big bang, so to speak, about how, "We had these wonderful statements which were voluntary," they have got some real problems now, I think.
NEVILLE: So, David, does the picture -- to you, does it look like he was being tortured?
SHELDON: Well, I think the picture is very powerful, but I also think that you have to step beyond that and you have to realize that the charge of conspiracy is an easy want to make. It's an easy one to establish.
You basically have to have an agreement. And the agreement can be with a confidential source, a confidential informant. It can even be with a government agent. In that case, you would have an attempted conspiracy, which has been upheld.
And then you have to have an overt act. I think, when you're looking at this case, the United States -- it's going to be easy to be able to make a case against John Walker Lindh. As a judge in the case yesterday indicated and he incredulously asked, "What was he doing there?" Of course, he immediately recognized that maybe he had stepped over a boundary. But he came back and said, "You don't have to answer that."
Well, what I think that raises is the exact question that each one of these juror members is going to ask. We know that John Walker Lindh knew that he had joined up with the Taliban. We know that he was fighting against U.S. forces and was on notice at that time.
NEVILLE: And, David, those statements right there, I am getting a lot of audience reaction from that. I want to bring Andrew in.
ANDREW: Well, I think the fact that we treat John Walker Lindh like a citizen is even preposterous. The man effectively -- maybe not constructively. Maybe he did not go to the State Department and sign a paper giving up his citizenship. But when he took arms against our soldiers, he gave up his citizenship. And so why do we even afford him these protections and these rights?
NEVILLE: Stanley Cohen?
COHEN: Look, everybody is presuming certain facts that have yet to be proven.
I understand the strongest thing that the government has going for it is the hatred of John Lindh. I would remind the audience that, two months also, the government said they had overwhelming proof that he not only went to war, but that he picked up arms against U.S. soldiers, that he may have been involved in the murder of the CIA agent, that he was shooting at U.S. soldiers. And we now know it's not true.
Yes, the government can rely upon the hatred and the distaste for John Lindh. But if we are going to be a society that is directed by law, that works according to the law, you have got to let the case work its way out in a courtroom. And I think the government has got some real problems here. All they have got is some statements.
And I think some of these statements are going, because they were involuntary. And, yes, the jury is going to be very difficult to convince, not because the evidence is there, but because of the pre- trial publicity and hatred direct toward Mr. Lindh. And if Americans want to settle for that, then fine, but that is not the way that the system is supposed to work.
NEVILLE: Michael from Pennsylvania, you're on the air.
CALLER: Yes. Good afternoon, Arthel.
NEVILLE: Good afternoon.
CALLER: Is it true that you gave up the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for Howard Stern?
NEVILLE: Goodbye, Michael.
Your thoughts are?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, hi.
I think people are just upset what happened at 9/11, as well they should be. But I think they're using John Walker Lindh as an example and not basically finding justice or the truth. And I think you just have to focus on if you want justice, or if you just want something, someone to kind of lay out just your anger on.
SHELDON: That's a good point.
And, in the Eastern District of Virginia, where this is going to be tried -- and I think Mr. Cohen alluded to this -- that there are very strong feelings. And there are feelings that one of the guests was asked about earlier and expressed. You have to remember that the Eastern District of Virginia is where the Pentagon is placed. And many, many people, while it's not, say, Simi Valley, it's certainly more conservative than other parts of the country.
I think that people will take a very hard look at the government evidence. But I think this case is not one that is easily dismissed. And it simply does not rest on his statements. Now, those statements have to be shown to be involuntary. And that is a pretty high standard, from the defense's point of view, in terms of being able to exclude those statements, have them excluded.
I think that the statements are coming in. I think the government has more evidence. What they don't have is that they don't have John Walker Lindh trying to kill Mike Spann. They don't have that. And they have conceded that.
NEVILLE: Yesterday. That is, in fact, true.
We have to take a break right now. Paul, I am going to let you speak when we come back.
More on this subject after this break -- back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back. We are talking about the case against Taliban American John Walker Lindh.
As I promised, Paul, your turn.
PAUL: Yes.
I just wanted to say that the photographs of John Walker Lindh which we have seen are very troubling indeed. And, as a criminal defense attorney myself, I just wanted to make a comment that, even while we try to bring the perpetrators of 9/11 to justice and to seek to ensure that that never recurs, we have to be very careful that, in the process, we do not run roughshod over civil liberties and trample upon basic rights which ought to remain in place.
NEVILLE: Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.
Stanley Cohen, I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
COHEN: Yes, I think that's what this is about.
I understand that many Americans are just outraged over what believe Mr. Walker may have done or may not have done. It is important, if the system is going to work, if we are going to survive September 11, if we're going to continue to be what it is we tell the rest of the world we are, then we have to withhold our judgment. We have got to let the system play itself out.
And, you know what? If they don't prove beyond a reasonable doubt what John Walker is alleged to have done, the verdict has to be not guilty. No one is asking you to take him home. No is asking you to let him date your daughter. But the system works in a certain way. That is what people have given their lives up for, for 200 years. And we can't cheapen it by simply rushing to judgment and flushing someone down to verdict. We can't do it.
NEVILLE: Blanche from Virginia.
BLANCHE: All right. I am going to the Palestinian thing. I think they should give the people some land. They are over there fighting for dirt.
NEVILLE: And that is a point well taken. But you know what I have to do right now, Ms. Blanche? I have got to stay on this subject.
So I'm going to keep talking about John Walker Lindh, OK?
In the meantime, Stanley Cohen and David Sheldon, I want to ask you, throughout the course of the trial for John Walker Lindh, do you think that the public sympathy for him, he will gain sympathy or will it wane throughout the course of the trial?
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: It has been my experience, trying a lot of high-profile political cases, that once the prosecutor steps up there and starts talking about the United States of America and starts rolling out all the horror stories, the victims and all these horrible things which have occurred, not connected to Mr. Lindh, but in the backdrop, it becomes very difficult to maintain what little sympathy he is going to have when the case begins.
NEVILLE: OK.
And Nicole from Michigan.
NICOLE: I too agree with the gentleman over there. After the 9/11 tragedy, I know we do want to punish somebody. And the picture is very disturbing to me. But yet I am not convinced that he went over to those countries and did not know what he was getting himself into and knowing what those types of people believe and that they all hate us as Americans.
And I just wonder -- I don't want people to be wrongly accused, but...
NEVILLE: Right. Thanks, Nicole. Thank you.
SHELDON: I think that that is actually what the jury is going to do in this case. They're going to look at the evidence and they're going to fairly and reasonably consider it. And I don't think they are going to be swayed by opinions. I don't think that they're going to be swayed by defense hyperbole. What they will be swayed by is the facts.
NEVILLE: And we will be watching, of course. We will be watching.
Absolutely.
I'm sorry. We are out of time right now. But, David Sheldon, Stanley Cohen, thank you so much for joining us today. And thanks to all of our studio audience and to you at home for watching.
I'm Arthel Neville. And I will be back again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern with more TALKBACK LIVE. We're going to talk about a couple who want to make sure their baby is deaf.
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