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CNN Live Today

Egypt Suspends Many Ties to Israel

Aired April 03, 2002 - 11:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: The biblical town of Bethlehem became a flash point in Israel's military campaign in the West Bank today. Our Bill Hemmer is watching the story. He is in Jerusalem and has the latest.

Bill, hello once again.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Daryn, hello to you and good evening from Jerusalem. First on this Egypt matter that you just mentioned there, Daryn. Suspending contacts is sort of the official phrasing we're hearing. The Israelis say they have not been notified just of that, and they will hold their comment until, indeed, the proper channels are followed.

But that could be critical in this sense, in the sense that Egypt is just one of a handful of countries in the entire region that has any diplomatic -- ties, rather, with Israel, but it has been a long time since they have had any diplomatic contact, pulling out their diplomats here well over a year and a half ago from Israel proper.

Now, Daryn, furthermore, in the West Bank town of Bethlehem, let's get to that right now. It continues to be a flash point, a very tense situation right now, ongoing. Here is what we know. About 200 Palestinian -- mostly gunmen, holed up inside of two separate churches, one being the Church of the Nativity. That is where the Bible says Jesus Christ was born. We also know about 1,000 Israeli forces surrounding those church in and around Manger Square.

We talked earlier, in fact, Daryn, you had an interview last hour with someone who was inside that church, it has been that way for about 24 hours, and described the scene inside. A lot of wounded, and a situation right now that finds a lot of people looking and needing help. Here is that interview last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTON SALMON, ANTONIUS SOCIETY: The situation is very bad. Very bad from all -- from all points. First, there is no food and the food that is in the convent, in the church are going very, very quickly because the people here -- it is big number to the convent, and they can't continue serving the people with food. Second, there's ten injured who are inside the church. One of them has a very serious injury, and he needs surgery, and he is bleeding since yesterday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: And the military activity continuing again, today. Half a dozen towns right now affected by what Israel is doing within the borders of the West Bank, and we also hear last night, Jenin, another West Bank town, more tanks rolling in there. It is possible, it's possible the town of Nablus may again be the next target within the West Bank. We will talk more about that in a moment here.

Also, last night, the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, and others within the government here in Israel indicated that they believe, essentially, they have a smoking gun right now that talks -- that connects, rather, the Al Aqsa Martyr Brigade with the Palestinian Authority. They are saying that they found documents and paperwork inside Yasser Arafat's compound that shows a direct link with the finance minister within the Palestinian Authority.

They're saying, in those documents again, that the request from the Martyr Brigade is for $100,000 in money to build a weapons plant. About 15,000 dollars per month in operating costs, and about $2,400 to cover things like future suicide bombings, in addition to a number of other items. The Palestinians dismissed this out of hand. They say the documents are a fake and a forgery, and completely dismiss that -- again, that announcement from last night.

With the military activity ongoing, with that announcement last night, let's bring in Colonel Miri Eisin. She is a senior intelligence officer with the Israeli Defense Force, the IDF, with us live in here Jerusalem. Good evening to you. The Palestinians say in no way are these documents true, they say they are a flat-out fake. You response to that?

COL. MIRI EISIN, ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE: When we entered into the compound, and of course, we haven't gone into Yasser Arafat's offices, we entered into Fouad al Shoubaki, who is the chief financial adviser and senior officer in finances of the PA. Within his office, we took boxes of documents.

Those documents have been translated, and only one of them, at present, have we presented out. The document itself shows -- and this isn't a fake, it's a document which is written from them. It actually has in it handwriting on it that was added within the office, and it needed a request for money.

It is actually debts incurred. I would call it a terrorist invoice, in which we are looking at a document which requests money for the families of suicide bombers, the shahidi, and there is a specific request there for the money to make bombs, for the chemical components, and in their own phrasing there, that is what costs the most money.

They need the money for each of these different bombs. A bomb costs 700 shekels. It was posed in shekels. They need five to nine bombs a week. And this isn't our wording, it is in Arabic. We presented that.

HEMMER: Palestinians say the Martyr Brigade would never put their headline on a piece of stationery, but indeed that is the document I saw.

EISIN: The document itself is an authentic that we took out of the offices. We have other documents. This document itself, which was in Shoubaki's office was found there. We don't fabricate lies.

HEMMER: When will journalists be able to see these documents?

EISIN: These documents were given yesterday, handed out to journalists, and we have said already that anybody who would like to see the original, we will let them see the original document itself. We found, as I said, boxes of documents within the compound that, by the way, were being readied to be destroyed, the Palestinians were the ones who felt that they had something to hide.

HEMMER: What more, then, will we learn if you are going to release more paperwork sometime soon?

EISIN: As we go along and understand, we will present these documents. We, of course, have interest to show the connections between somebody like Fouad al-Shoubaki, who we, of course, remember not only the chief financial adviser, but the one who was running the entire Karine-A smuggling boat operation. The funding of it was entirely done by him, and we're looking for more things like that.

HEMMER: Let's talk about the military activity ongoing. Jenin was entered last night, so too another small town, Salfit. There is talk of Nablus being the next on the list, is that true?

EISIN: We don't talk about the present military operations as they go on. We do try to address anytime that we can the different lies that we have been hearing every day that the Palestinians say. For example, the lies now within Bethlehem, but I won't address at moment the present operations as they go.

HEMMER: In Ramallah, late yesterday, the U.S. actually stepped in and helped mediate a truce between 400 Palestinians inside the security compound and the Israeli troops on the outside. Is there the possibility that mediation may be able to end the current standoff in Bethlehem?

EISIN: Certainly, and that's certainly something that helps. I would like to say again, on that side, there are only 200 people within that compound, and not 400 another example of what was said. They said that all of them were unarmed within the compound yesterday in Ramallah. 184 came out, in which we found six top-wanted terrorists and there were many arms in there.

We talk about Bethlehem at the moment, if they would put down the arms -- we have armed terrorists within the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem -- they put down the arms and let the priests, the nuns that are inside together, with the dozens of militants, to come out, because, as I said, they're presenting it that Israel won't let them out. We will only go in, we want to get out. We're not interesting in being in there.

HEMMER: I want to know how many, in terms of numbers, right now you believe, in terms of this entire operation, now day six -- you stated at the very beginning that you wanted to root out and find terrorist suspects that have been on an Israeli list for some time. In that Church of the Nativity how many are inside that you want?

EISIN: I can't give that exact list. Of course, those are numbers that we are interested in, but I can say...

HEMMER: Do you know?

EISIN: ...they're high -- we can say that there are definitely highly-wanted terrorists within the structure.

HEMMER: In a broader perspective, in these half-dozen towns throughout the West Bank, how many have you located that you want to put in custody?

EISIN: I am going to say dozens and dozens of terrorists. As you understand, we don't have a magic wand to be able to immediately see that every person is or is not a terrorist. We have to interrogate. And as of now, we're already talking about dozens.

HEMMER: Quickly, though, I want to be clear about this. You say dozens, yet 800 were apprehended in Ramallah. Clearly 800 are not on that list.

EISIN: I would like to differentiate between the fact that we're detaining people, interrogating, finding out if they are connected to terror, and letting them go. We have already let hundreds go in Ramallah, having detained -- we haven't -- I'm differentiating between the ones that we detain, and the ones that we are continuing our investigation.

HEMMER: I am out of time, but I really think it is important to ask you the following question about the Lebanese-Israeli border. How much concern right there is there on behalf of the IDF that this could be escalating conflict that takes you outside of this direct region?

EISIN: Again, what I would like to say on that, is how terror is connected to terror. Because on the Lebanese border we're seeing unprovocated (ph) -- without any provocation on the Israeli side, from an international, sovereign, recognized border that they are firing into Israeli areas unprovocated (ph), and what we have here are terrorists continuing the entire terror against Israel, both from within the territories, and now from Lebanon. And, yes, this is an issue, and as you've heard, on diplomatic levels we trying to, as much as possible, to take care of that.

HEMMER: Colonel, thank you. Colonel Eisin, senior intelligence officer with the IDF, the Israeli Defense Force.

EISIN: Thank you very much.

HEMMER: All right, once again, throughout the entire West Bank, Daryn, about half a dozen towns right now, and again, it is possible that Nablus may be the next town. We will certainly watch it from here. Back to you now in Atlanta -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Bill Hemmer in Jerusalem. Thank you very much. With all these developments, and of course, the spotlight continues to go on the White House. Many calls for the Bush administration to do more. Let's check in with Kelly Wallace who is at the White House -- Kelly, good morning.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning again to you, Daryn.

Well, I can tell you, just talked to a senior administration official to find out if the administration has any reaction just yet to Egypt's decision to suspend most contacts with Israel. The official saying that the White House not saying anything just yet, and wouldn't even talk about this kind of background about just what this will mean.

Clearly, though, it is not a good development. It shows that Arab allies, including Egypt very, very concerned about the Israeli raids that are continuing in those West Bank towns. We know Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been very vocal calling on the Bush White House to get much more deeply engaged to try and resolve the current situation.

Secretary of State Colin Powell also likely to hear that same message when he meets with Arab-American leaders in the United States later this afternoon. Lots of Arab allies, very much calling for the administration to do something more, perhaps send Secretary Powell to the region to up the ante a bit.

Right now, the White House, though, saying that there are no plans to send Powell to the region. They're sticking with the approach by Middle East envoy Anthony Zinni to those cease-fire negotiations. At the same time, Daryn, growing calls for the administration to put forward some new initiative, perhaps a new political discussion to get the two sides together.

Lots of people believe that really, unless the Palestinians hear more about talks of settlements, and borders, and refugees, they're not willing to really discuss with General Zinni any security arrangements. The position, though, from the White House continues to be, until you really get that violence under control, until you have a cease-fire, you really can't have discussions of these other political issues.

And it interesting yesterday, President Bush in Pennsylvania. Earlier in the day, he refused to answer reporters' questions about the criticism of his administration's handling of the crisis. But later in the day, during a fund-raiser in Philadelphia, Mr. Bush did talk about his vision, having Israel and a Palestinian state living side-by-side. He also said there are those who don't want that vision to take place, and that is the goal of the United States and the world, and the international community to prevent that from happening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are those who want to destroy that vision. There are those who want to murder to make sure that vision never comes to be. The United States of America will stand strong and continue to insist that those who yearn for peace in the Middle East and other regions around the world must do everything they can to stop the terrorist activities all aimed at making sure that peace does not exist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: But for now, Daryn, the administration's position regarding the Israeli offensive remains the same, that Israel, according to President Bush, has a right to defend itself, but also that the Israelis have to know, at some point, they have to take steps to get back to the peace process, to cease-fire negotiations.

Clearly, Daryn, as you can see by the action by the actions by the Egyptians, that view is really not sitting well with the Egyptians and other Arab allies. Administration definitely under growing pressure to do more. It does appear Secretary Powell privately, in his conversations with Prime Minister Sharon is sending the message that the Israelis should wrap up these military operations as quickly as they can -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Kelly Wallace, Kelly Wallace at the White House. Kelly, thank you very much, and I want to go on with that story, our lead story once again that Egypt has severed a number of ties with Israel. Diplomatic ties do remain open. To get some perspective on this, let's bring in our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider, joining us from -- are you in Washington or L.A., Bill?

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Washington.

KAGAN: Washington. Good to have you back at home. Good morning to you.

SCHNEIDER: Thank you. Good morning.

KAGAN: Once again, these are not diplomatic relations that have been severed, and yet the symbolism of it, I imagine, is incredibly significant.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. It is important because it raises a very dangerous prospect, both for Israel and for the United States. What people have been warning of. This could become a much broader regional conflict, not simply between Israel and the Palestinians, but between Israel and the Arabs. Egypt is a key Arab country. It is the largest Arab country. It is one of only three Arab countries that has a peace agreement with Israel, that has diplomatic relations with Israel after the handing back of the Sinai area some years back.

Egypt is also a key ally of the United States. President Mubarak has been a very important peacemaker. He's been -- he's tried to involve himself in the peace process many, many times, and he is under tremendous pressure from his own population, as are most Arab governments. The population in the so-called Arab street are outraged at what Israel is doing, and, of course, tragically we remember what happened to his predecessor, Anwar Sadat, who really opened Egypt's diplomatic relations with Israel. This is clearly an effort by President Mubarak to appease those protesting masses in Egypt, to stay in power, to save himself, short of doing what they want, which is to cut off all diplomatic ties with Israel.

The Egyptian government is saying they are going keep diplomatic ties to the extent that they can allow Egypt to help the Palestinian cause.

KAGAN: Let's look a little bit more closely at the tough spot that Mubarak is in. We saw those pictures of what's happening in the street, and you mentioned Egypt being a significant ally of the U.S., but also a significant financial partner in the amount of money that it receives from the U.S., second only to Israel.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. It receives an enormous amount of American foreign aid, as Israel does. And it has been a very key ally in the peace process such as it is. There really is none right now, but if there is to be a renewal of the peace process, Egypt is likely to play a key role, and Hosni Mubarak, the president of Egypt, has always been an important player. More recently, the Saudis have stepped forward. They have never been part of the peace process, and we don't know how reliable they are likely to be.

We know that Egypt has a record, and Hosni Mubarak has a commitment. For him to suspend contacts with Israel is a very serious step, because it means that he is under tremendous domestic pressure to do something, or else he could fall. That would be a devastating blow.

KAGAN: Now, there are some who have suggested that, perhaps, President Mubarak is also kind of dealing with a bruised ego. As you said, for years, he has been trying to participate in this peace process, and then just over the last week he decides not to go to the Arab summit in Beirut, and it's Prince Abdullah who gets all the credit for coming up with this peace proposal out of Saudi Arabia.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. Mubarak has been critical of the United States. He was especially critical when the United States was unable to persuade Israel to allow Yasser Arafat to attend that Beirut summit, the summit of the Arab League last week, and allow him to return. The Israelis said they could not guarantee Arafat's return. Mubarak was explicitly unhappy that the United States didn't seem to have enough influence even to persuade Israel to allow Arafat to go. So, he has been openly critical of the U.S., and decided to stay away from the summit, partly for that reason.

So, he has kind of distanced himself from this whole peace process. Clearly, he is under enormous pressure right now, and this move that he has made, partly to appease the masses in Egypt, partly to save own position, could be critical for the United States as well.

KAGAN: Well, and does this up the ante for the U.S.? There are those -- and I know you have suggested that the Bush administration needs to get involved even more. Does this latest move by Egypt support that opinion?

SCHNEIDER: It is meant to put pressure on the United States to get involved because it says the consequences of letting this get out of hand could be devastating for the region and for the United States. Because what it says is, it could ruin Israel and America's relations with key Arab allies. I think it is really intended, in part, to send a signal to the United States, do something, which is coming from a lot of different directions.

KAGAN: Bill Schneider in Washington, D.C. Bill, thank you for your time. Appreciate it.

SCHNEIDER: Sure.

KAGAN: Of course, we are going to be following the events in the Middle East throughout the day here on CNN. Tonight, you can get an in-depth look at the crisis from CNN's Christiane Amanpour, live from Jerusalem. Join Christiane at 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.

We also want you to know what you think, and our online poll questions asks, "Would exiling Yasser Arafat resolve the crisis in the Middle East?" So far, the vast majority of those voting, 89 percent, say no. You can cast your vote at CNN.com, AOL key word CNN. Remember, this is not a scientific poll, simply a place for you to express your opinion.

Well, the turmoil in the Middle East not only poses a diplomatic challenge for the Bush administration, it also raises questions about U.S. military options in the region. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, joins us with the latest rumblings from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld -- Barbara, good morning.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.

Well, as this news breaks here this morning about the situation between Egypt and Israel, there is -- continues to be a lot of criticism, of course, that the administration is just being a little too quiet about the whole situation, but one man who isn't being quiet this week is the very plainspoken secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice-over): Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is on the front line, launching furious criticism of three countries that he says are now actively supporting attacks against Israel.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: States like Iran, Iraq, and Syria are inspiring and financing a culture of political murder and suicide bombing.

STARR: Rumsfeld says Iraq's Saddam Hussein is offering large cash payments to families of suicide bombers. Syria continues to allow Hezbollah terrorists to move from Damascus into Lebanon using the Beka'a Valley to launch attacks.

Iran is supporting both Hezbollah and the Palestinians with financial and military assistance. The Pentagon believes Tehran was deeply involved in a shipment of weapons to the Palestinians earlier this year. The ship, Karine-A, was seized by the Israelis, loaded with weapons that U.S. intelligence believes were destined either for the Palestinian or Hezbollah.

Defense officials say all of these countries activities means a peace agreement with just the Palestinians will no longer be enough to guarantee an end to the violence. And the U.S. must still deal with all three countries in the war on terrorism. Political pressure on Syria remains high, and the U.S. continues to signal possible future military action against Iraq. But officials increasingly believe that Iran is the most dangerous threat, far beyond its support for suicide bombers.

RUMSFELD: There is no question but that al Qaeda have moved in and found sanctuary in Iran, and there is no question but that al Qaeda have moved into Iran and out of Iran to the south, and dispersed to some other countries.

STARR: A senior military official tells CNN that al Qaeda operatives have taken shelter in Iran with the support of the hard- liners in the government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: Now, Don Rumsfeld says there is absolutely no interest on the part of the Bush administration in sending military peacekeepers to Israel. But now with Iran, Iraq and Syria so deeply involved, not only in terrorism networks, but in backing the current unrest in the Middle East, Rumsfeld is very deeply concerned that the U.S. is, in fact, facing a much broader, much deeper regional crisis -- Daryn.

KAGAN: How the situation develops minute by minute. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thank you so much.

STARR: You are welcome.

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