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CNN Talkback Live
Free-for-All Friday
Aired April 05, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: That's funny. All right. Very, very, very nice. Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville, and as you can tell it's free-for-all Friday.
OK. We are going to start, though, in the Holy Land, where Israeli and Palestinian forces remain in a standoff inside the Church of the Nativity, and U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni is trying to work out a deal with the Palestinian Authority. He reportedly had quite a session with Yasser Arafat. We'll also play some of that video of journalists being encouraged to leave the area by Israeli stun grenades. Wait until you see this video.
But before we check in with Bill Hemmer in Jerusalem, let's take a look at what else we have in store for you today.
Born in the USA, Taliban by choice. Second Taliban American claims his birthright.
Also, what's wrong with kissing cousins? A new study says it's not only OK to kiss, go ahead and marry and have kids. You can keep it all in the family.
And good fences might make good neighbors, but at Wrigley Field they make for bitter fans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have erected a wall between themselves and the community.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are acting in a very childlike fashion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: The blinders are up, but the game's not over. With apologies to Harry Carrie -- holy cow, it's free-for-all Friday!
OK, everybody, let's get started with CNN correspondent Bill Hemmer in Jerusalem. Bill, what is the reaction over there to the Zinni-Arafat meeting?
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Arafat meeting took place with Anthony Zinni, it lasted a bit more than an hour in length. To be frank with you, Arthel, we do not have a whole lot of information as to what even the men talked about inside.
Since that time, though, there apparently has been somewhat of a mission by Anthony Zinni to get to the top aides of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and to do it here in the city of Jerusalem. Right after the wheels started rolling on that, we are told by the Palestinian side that the Israelis have pulled the plug on that. We don't know if it will happen, but again we are awaiting word -- it's probably not going to happen tonight. It's getting late now, just a bit past 11:00 o'clock local time.
The problem here with all of this, Arthel, as you can imagine, the story changes so often. It's quite difficult to get to the truth of much of this.
NEVILLE: Oh, absolutely. And Bill, now, to say the least, the Israeli troops outside of Arafat's compound weren't very hospitable toward journalists showing up there. Tell us about that.
HEMMER: I'm not there and wasn't there.
NEVILLE: I'm glad you weren't.
HEMMER: That's for starters. Ramallah is -- thank you -- Ramallah is about 10 miles north of our location here in Jerusalem. Michael Holmes, Peter Arnstein (ph), Margaret Moss (ph), some other CNN employees were there. They described the situation this way: They were waiting outside the compound -- what's left of it anyway -- waiting for Anthony Zinni to show up for what we call in the business a photo op, a photo opportunity.
And shortly before Zinni arrived, apparently a large number of Israeli soldiers arrived in cars and jeeps essentially, fired a few stun grenades, distracted the journalists, tried to move them along. In fact, our CNN car working there in Ramallah was even bumped by some Israeli jeeps.
Suffice to say it was somewhat effective because I have not seen any pictures of Anthony Zinni entering that compound. We did see what we call still photos, still pictures of their meeting inside. But I tell you, it was a huge chance the Israeli government took, to be quite frank with you, because any time you mess with the media when they have cameras rolling, it does not look quite good.
Now on the other side, the Israeli government defending itself today, saying journalists know the dangers working and operating in a military zone. But again, what we saw today was quite surprising, and I think Michael Holmes laid it out pretty well to our audience about what happened there.
NEVILLE: And Bill, in the meantime, the violence continues. Give us the latest.
HEMMER: Indeed it does. This -- a little more than 24 hours after President Bush's called to wind things down here in this current military offensive in the West Bank. They have not lightened up one bit. In fact, we have heard reports throughout the day, sounds like Nablus and Jenin, heavy fighting still happening right now. The Israelis say tonight, in fact, just about two hours ago, that they have killed who they believe is the suspected mastermind of the Netanya suicide bombing that happened a week ago Wednesday night at the beginning of Passover.
So it has not ended. In fact, we are hearing about altercations not only in Bethlehem, as you mentioned, but Hebron as well. No letting up at this point on the eve -- well, not the eve, but essentially about four or five days before we anticipate Colin Powell arriving in the area here in the Middle East, Arthel.
NEVILLE: And I'm going to be so interested to hear those developments. Bill Hemmer, always a pleasure to have you on TALKBACK LIVE. Thank you so much.
HEMMER: Will do. You got it. Have a good day, Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK. Let's move on now. It is time to meet today's free-for-all Friday panel. We are going to be joined by Blanquita Cullum. She is a radio talk show host for Radio America. She will be taking a group of radio talk show hosts to Saudi Arabia later this month and will broadcast to America from there. And Mark Riley is host of "Politics Live" on WLIB in New York. The Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson, a columnist for WorldNetDaily.com. He is the author of "From Rage to Responsibility." And Joyce Kaufman, a radio talk show host on WFTL and WDJA in Florida's greater Miami area. Welcome to all of you.
Absolutely. Joyce, I want to start with you today. What do you think about President Bush's statements and his current stance on the Middle East crisis?
JOYCE KAUFMAN, WDJA RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I think it's the height of hypocrisy. I really do. I am so disappointed. I was such a strong supporter, in spite of my political leanings, toward the president after September 11. But I ask this question: If America had been attacked on September 11 and then a suicide bomber had attacked us on September 12 and another one on September 13 and another one on September 14, would we be sending negotiators to talk to Osama bin Laden? Why would the president expect Ariel Sharon to do something that nobody in their right mind would consider? This is a dramatic turn of events, and I am very disappointed in the administration.
NEVILLE: Mark Riley, how do you see it?
MARK RILEY, WLIB RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I question why he waited until after he was criticized for not doing anything to do something. And even now, we don't know what Secretary Powell -- we don't even know yet where he's going or what his final mission is. This is such a multi-layered situation in the Mideast now, as your reporter just said. There's violence that is ongoing. And I'm not sure that the United States, quite frankly, is in a position to do a whole heck of a lot about it right now.
NEVILLE: Reverend Peterson. REV. JESSE LEE PETERSON, COLUMNIST, WORLDNETDAILY.COM: I was disappointed when I heard that the president is trying to make peace with Arafat. Arafat is a terrorist, and there is nothing that we can do to make peace with him. We need to wipe him out. What Americans need to realize is that...
NEVILLE: You don't think, though, if they wipe out Arafat that it's not going to just incite the Palestinians even more?
PETERSON: That's possible, but it looked like things are going to get worse anyway. So why not wipe him out, and hopefully put someone in there that will make an attempt to do the right thing.
NEVILLE: Anybody in this audience think that Arafat should be wiped out, raise your hand. I want to come talk to you. You say no, sir? Hang on. I'm going to get you. Stand up for me. Stand up and speak your mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Arafat is a leader. He was elected by his own people, by the Palestinians. So we can't remove another controversial leader. He was elected by his people. And he will keep on representing his own people.
PETERSON: Well, Arafat is a dictator, so the people did not vote him in. He forced his way in there. The people are not making decisions about his that.
One quick point I want to make is that we should realize that Israel has been attacked not only for the land, but because they are Jews, just as America was attacked because we are a Christian nation. Most people have in their bible that Christians and Jews are infidels and that they should be wiped out. They're worthy of death and Arafat is not going to stop until...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me, Reverend.
PETERSON: ... he destroys the Jews.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me, sir. You say Arafat is a dictator. What about the people in the Middle East, in Saudi Arabia? These are not elected leaders either, but America deals with them. So how do you answer that situation?
PETERSON: You make a very good point. That's why...
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And second of all -- sir, excuse me. And second of all, if you get rid of Arafat, whether you like him or not, he is the recognized leader of that region. And America, if it's going to be...
PETERSON: He is not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he is. And if you get rid of Arafat, who are you going to put in place to replace him with? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The worst thing you can do...
PETERSON: Let me just respond to that. First, I want to say that Israel is the only democracy in that area. And if we lose Israel, it is all over. And I can guarantee you they will come after the American people or America and we are going to have the same problem in the degree that Israel is dealing with it now.
KAUFMAN: And let's not forget that killing Yasser Arafat turns him into a martyr. This is something he's already said he wanted. This is a man who needs to be removed. He needs to be sent to -- I think Morocco wants him. He can go to Tunisia because most of the other Arab countries want nothing to do with him and have already kicked him out.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: What do you think, Richard?
RICHARD: I think Arafat should be wiped out. Palestinians have constantly broken promise after promise to Israel, the promise to end the violence, promise to drop their pledge to destroy Israel. Palestinians have not followed through. Meanwhile, Israel has made concession after concession of land, of troop pullbacks.
NEVILLE: They haven't withdrew their troops yet when they were asked to.
RICHARD: But they have pledged to in the future.
NEVILLE: All right. Well, we'll see what happens.
You know what, guys, I have got to take a break right now. So, I'm so excited. This is all heated up. I love when it gets all heated up on TALKBACK LIVE.
Secretary of State Colin Powell heads to the region next week. What is he taking to the table? We're going to talk more about that after the break and my personal invitation to you to join us here on free-for-all Friday. Give me a call, 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail talkback@cnn.com.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody, TALKBACK LIVE's Free-For-All Friday. Blanquita, want to bring you in on this conversation. OK, Bush tells the Israeli troops to withdraw from Palestinian territory. He tells the Palestinians to stop the suicide bombings. Is it that simple and who is going to make the first move?
BLANQUITA CULLUM, RADIO AMERICA: Well, it isn't that simple, Arthel. How are you? I'm glad to be on board with you guys. And actually, as I think you mentioned, I'll be going to the Middle East next week. I think what's happening right now, the president has given Arafat one last chance to get it together because Mr. Powell is going over there to try to be able to make sure that there's a cease-fire. You know, there were very strong rumors in the Middle East that Mubarak and the king of Jordan Abdullah were trying to be able to figure out a way to side-step Arafat and pick out another guy who would be acceptable to the Palestinian leadership and have him be designated as a temporary prime minister.
I think there are a lot of people in the Middle East and some of these countries like Jordan, which have a significant Palestinian population, they don't want this exploding as well. And, you know, there's more than this than is just going on as well, because you have to look at what is happening on the Golan Heights right there with Syria. Remember, you have got Hezbollah, which is another very horrible terrorist organization. They want to get back the Golan Heights. And remember, when you are thinking about Israel, it's about the size of New Jersey. I mean, it's a little, tiny state.
NEVILLE: Go ahead. Somebody wants to jump in, go right ahead.
PETERSON: Arthel, I think the point needs to be made, Arafat is a wicked man. One point about him, he trained little children to put bombs on themselves, go into a community and blow up other children. I mean, what kind of love is that? That man has a wicked man and I have to tell you, you can not deal, make a deal with evil. If you do, we are all going to suffer for it.
RILEY: If we want peace in this region, we are going to have to -- we cannot talk about peace and then talk about knocking off somebody that's supposed to be at the table negotiating.
PETERSON: But Arafat doesn't want peace. He doesn't want peace.
RILEY: But see, if you want to try and put together some kind of a peaceful solution to this, right now, you are going to have to deal with Arafat.
(CROSSTALK)
PETERSON: When President Bush was in office, they had a deal, a good daily. And Arafat turned down the deal.
CULLUM: Reverend, but I would submit to you this. Let's be honest about this, OK? You got a couple of issues that are not going to be resolved. One is the right of return and the other is the temple mount. So what you want right now is to be able to have a cease-fire and stop the violence. It would be wonderful to be able to have someone who was more moderate to be able to stop this.
NEVILLE: I'm going to jump in here and let Chris from Indiana speak. Go ahead, Chris.
CHRIS: I agree with the person on the TV earlier who said America never deals with terrorists, so why are we going over there and dealing with Arafat if he's an accused terrorist of all these people. America's position has always been we don't negotiate with terrorists. And if we go over there we should stand behind Israel and not negotiate with Arafat.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Let me get Kyle (ph), I've got a -- boy, the phones are burning up today. Kyle from Michigan, go ahead.
KYLE: Hello. Yes. I'm a Jewish teen and I feel that Israel has shown great restraint in not doing anything to Palestine and I believe that the U.S. should go over there and help Israel because this is Israel's real first retaliation against Palestine and I think it's very warranted with all the Passover bombings.
NEVILLE: OK. Let me pull up then...
PETERSON: It will be a horrible mistake if the U.S. don't go to help Israel because if Israel go, so will the United States.
NEVILLE: OK, let me...
(CROSSTALK)
Thank you, Kyle, for your call. And I'm going to pull up an e- mail right now. Panel, I'm going to pull up an e-mail right now. Hold on. Let's take a look at. Umar in California: "Really, what can Powell do? This is a charade that is destined to fail. World peace in our time remains a dream." Who wants to respond to that?
RILEY: I'm not at all sure he's wrong about that. I tell you, we can't go into these kinds of -- if we are going to negotiate, if we are talking about peace, we cannot go in there condemning one of the people or are talking about killing one of the people at the table.
(CROSSTALK)
The Israelis -- wait a minute. The Israelis have legitimate concerns. The question of Hamas and Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad are all very important questions, but Arafat by himself is not going to be able to stop those organizations.
CULLUM: Oh, absolutely he can.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Guys, here's a question for you. Panel, here's a question for you. Do you think that -- no, no, wait a minute for a second. Thank you very much.
Let me ask you this. Do you think that Colin Powell can get Arafat and Sharon in the same room?
PETERSON: No.
CULLUM: Absolutely.
KAUFMAN: No.
PETERSON: No.
CULLUM: Absolutely. Absolutely.
NEVILLE: Why, Blanquita? Why do you say that?
CULLUM: You know why I absolutely think he can? Because, you know, Arafat is looking at his own demise within the Arab nations. They are fed up with him. To think that they are going to support this kind of stuff, they can't. It's going to be, you know, more disruptive to them as well.
They don't want this nonsense. And I'm telling you, as I pointed out, you have got Jordan. You have got Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. You have also Mubarak. It is not to their best interest to be able to deal, even for their own financial global workings, to be able to have this guy going off like this. He has been known as kind of a thug and not being -- within his own community.
KAUFMAN: I'd like to make a statement to the Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, who is so busy worried about Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. Why doesn't he get busy and worry about the people of Saudi Arabia? Why doesn't he figure out why 19 of those bombers had some connection to Saudi Arabia? This is a man proposing peace who has been not only harboring terrorists all along, but now pledges billions of dollars to the Palestinian Authority.
NEVILLE: And, Melena (ph) from Ohio, you have something to say about that.
MELENA (ph): I think it would be very hard to put everyone on the table unless we stop pointing fingers. Because you can't call somebody a terrorist and an evil person and then ask him to sit down and have...
NEVILLE: Have coffee.
KAUFMAN: But a terrorist is a terrorist.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Thank you. You know what, I need to go to break right now. I don't know about you all, but I am all excited today. It is working in here. I love it. Keep those phone calls going, too. All right. That's all we have for this topic. And we are going to move on as Free-For-All Friday.
What does it mean to be an American citizen? A second Taliban fighter captured at Mazar-e Sharif claims he was born in the USA and wants his rights as an American citizen. Does it matter if he's citizen by chance, choice or convenience? Back in a moment.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NEVILLE: All right everybody. Welcome back.
A couple hours ago, a military plane flew suspected Taliban loyalist Yasser Hamdi from his prison at Guantanamo Bay to Virginia. Hamdi claims to be an American citizen although he grew up in Saudi Arabia. CNN correspondent Jeanne Meserve is in Norfolk, Virginia, where Hamdi is under military guard. Jeanne, hello. And what's next for Hamdi?
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, for now, it's a lot of sitting in the brig right here at the Norfolk Naval station. As you mentioned, a C-130 brought him from Guantanamo Bay first to Dulles Airport outside Washington. They wanted to establish jurisdiction there in case charges are eventually brought against him.
Then that same C-130 traveled here, flew right over our heads, landed a little more than an hour ago. And then we saw a police car pull up to the intersection behind me. A military policeman got out with an assault weapon and stopped all traffic. And then we saw a caravan come down the road in one of the vehicles, a van was Mr. Hamdi. He was being taken to the brig that's here on base. It houses about -- or has the capacity to house about 145 individuals. I'm sure none of them quite have the status that he does, however. So he'll be here. How long he will be here, Arthel, we just don't know. There are too many questions about his citizenship and possible charges against him.
NEVILLE: That's exactly right. I was wondering if we even know at this point if he's indeed an American citizen, if he had dual citizenship.
MESERVE: Well, we don't know definitively.
NEVILLE: Exactly.
MESERVE: We don't know definitively yet. They did find a birth certificate, authorities did, which substantiated the story he told that he was born to Saudi parents in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Apparently at about the age of three, when he was a toddler, he was taken back to Saudi Arabia and spent most of his life there.
But there are questions still being probed by the Justice Department. As you mentioned, dual citizenship is one of them. Is he carrying a Saudi passport? Is it possible that at some point, he renounced his U.S. citizenship, said he wanted nothing more to do with the U.S.? Or is it possible perhaps that the U.S. would have the ability to revoke his U.S. citizenship because he may have been fighting on the side of the Taliban? At least that's the allegation.
NEVILLE: Well, we'll keep watching. Jeanne Meserve, thank you so much. Good to see you.
And we're going to move on to the panel. Panel, I want to start with Mark Riley on this one. Does this guy deserve to be treated like an American citizen? RILEY: This could be a classic example of be careful what you wish for. It would to seem to me that if he is an American citizen, he could be charged with treason which is something you cannot charge a non-citizen with. And, of course, federal treason charges could end up in the death penalty.
I find it extraordinarily hypocritical that the guy was in Guantanamo -- it seems to me as though he just simply wanted to leave Guantanamo and get back to the United States. Claiming this birthright just seems to me to be the height of hypocrisy, but they do have to bring charges against him. I assume he is entitled to some sort of a trial, and evidence against him will be brought forward. But if I were him, I would be very, very careful about claiming U.S. citizenship because if they bring treason charges against him, he could be facing the death penalty.
NEVILLE: Blanquita...
CULLUM: What's most interesting about this to me is unlike John Walker Lindh, the original American Taliban, I haven't seen this rush of publicity and all of these pictures of him as a little boy growing up in Baton Rouge. So far, no high-powered lawyers have stepped in to say they are going to take the case. You know, what's the difference here? Why has the media allowed this story to be spun so differently? That's the question.
NEVILLE: You think the media is spinning this story, Richard? You are clapping over here. Stand up and tell me what is on your mind.
RICHARD: I think it's racism. John Walker Lindh is clearly a white man. Hamdi is an Arab. Double standard.
NEVILLE: Whoa. Blanquita, double standards.
CULLUM: Well, we haven't had enough time with it. Frankly, I think most people really want to see John Walker tried for treason. They are hoping that they will find some other way to prosecute him, this guy who has been treated like he was some like misguided young man.
You know, this is preposterous to people who have sons and daughters over there in the Middle East the same age defending the country. I mean, John Walker Lindh is clearly a traitor in my opinion. And I think this guy is a traitor. And I agree with Mark in that I think that they should be both tried and prosecuted and face the death penalty. You don't do that to your country...
PETERSON: I agree with that.
CULLUM: And we should not have to have these kind of traitors trying to go out there and prance around and dance around like they are going to able to get away from justice.
NEVILLE: Absolutely.
CULLUM: I think they should face the death penalty.
PETERSON: I want to quickly respond to something that your audience member said.
She said that we shouldn't be pointing the fingers at someone. I am so sick and tired of Americans saying that we shouldn't point out the faults of others. When a person is wrong, they need some other source to tell them that they are wrong in order to deal with the issue.
Arafat is wrong. He needs to be told that and then dealt with. And if this young man is truly an American citizen, they need to put him in a hole and get all the information that they can get out of him. And then -- I believe in the death penalty. They need to put him under it.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Quickly, go ahead, because I've got to -- go ahead.
CULLUM: To that person that was making that statement, she was right. And we are trying diplomacy. Yes, Arafat is totally wrong and he's a thug. But the Palestinians -- there are some Palestinian people that don't support Arafat. What we are trying to do is have a cease-fire and not completely eliminate the concept.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: All right, everybody, I'm out of time for this particular subject. It's Friday, so we are going to lighten it up a little bit.
Come closer. Dennis, come closer. This is personal. I am going to need to know a little secret. Did you ever have a crush on your cousin? Give me a buzz. Let me know. The number is on the bottom of the screen. It's time to let the cat out of the bag, honey. Let it out. Work it out -- back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: All right.
You know, before the break, I asked if any of you ever had a crush on your cousin. Did you kiss? Do you make fun of people who do? Now, in many parts of the country, relationships between cousins are taboo and marriage is illegal. There are all kinds of worries about genetic diseases being passed on to children.
But the National Society of Genetic Counselors says that the risk isn't enough to worry about. Go ahead. Marry and get genetic counseling later. OK, I have about 200 cousins. I wouldn't marry them, let alone have kids with them.
Blanquita, work with me on this. Would you marry your cousin?
CULLUM: No, baby, I wouldn't. And, you know, the other thing is, "The Madness of King George," you know that movie? They said that the problem with King George is that he had a blood disease -- was so much inbreeding in the royal family. You even look back to the Russian royals. You remember the story of Rasputin trying to cure the little boy that had hemophilia.
A lot of those problems were because of so much inbreeding. I think we want to try to make it look normal, but that we know kind of it's not normal. We might want to try to rationalize it, but we know that first cousins -- what are we going to say next, brother and sisters, mothers and sons?
NEVILLE: Because my cousins are like my brothers.
Go ahead.
KAUFMAN: And let me tell you, Arthel, you are so right on the money Arthel. I don't know a single woman who didn't learn how to kiss from the cutest cousin she had.
NEVILLE: Oh, wait. Hold up. Hold up.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Joyce, I have to talk to you. I did not say that, Joyce. I did not say that.
CULLUM: Where did that come from?
KAUFMAN: Your cousins were obviously not as cute as mine.
NEVILLE: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
KAUFMAN: I learned everything I ever needed to know from my cousins.
And, in retrospect, if I had married one of my cousins instead of the guy I ended up marrying, I probably would have had a happier life.
NEVILLE: Whoa.
RILEY: This is very perplexing to me. I have a question.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Mark.
RILEY: What happens if people read this report; they marry their cousins; and then their children do end up having a problem? Can they sue the people that said it was OK?
NEVILLE: That's a good question.
KAUFMAN: But you can have a problem marrying someone who is not your cousin.
NEVILLE: This is true.
PETERSON: I think that it is incest. It is morally wrong. And I don't think that they should be punished for it, but I don't think we should accept it as being normal. And, also, I have to tell you this.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Tell me.
PETERSON: First, I want to say congratulations on your show. And you have a lot of energy.
NEVILLE: Oh, thank you.
PETERSON: And I'm very happy for you.
But I want to say that I said, when Bill Clinton got away with his immoral acts, I would not be surprised if America thinks that immorality is now OK. So I'm not surprised to hear about this.
NEVILLE: Exactly Reverend Peterson, because this study says, oh, it's not going to be so bad, genetically speaking, does that make it OK?
PETERSON: It doesn't make it OK. We all know right from wrong.
RILEY: Of course it's not OK.
PETERSON: It's not OK just because a few crazy people are saying that it is OK.
(CROSSTALK)
KAUFMAN: But it's not a few crazy people. It's scientists.
NEVILLE: Wait. What did you say, Mark?
(CROSSTALK)
RILEY: I think that the average American family is not going to countenance intermarriage on that level. I'm optimistic about the American people. I don't think the American people will go for it just because somebody says or some organization says it's OK. That's absurd.
(CROSSTALK)
PETERSON: Growing up as a black man, Arthel, if I had considered kissing my cousin, my grandmother would have whooped me up and down the road.
NEVILLE: Reverend Peterson...
(CROSSTALK) NEVILLE: Reverend Peterson, had you thought about kissing your cousins -- Blanquita, you got to let me say this. Oh, this is funny, because I'm want to be funny right now, OK?
Reverend Peterson, had you talked about kissing your cousin, your grandmother would have slapped the black off you. You know that, right?
(LAUGHTER)
PETERSON: Absolutely. Without a doubt. That's a no-no.
CULLUM: And we look at extended family, part of the fun of extended families is, you can hang around each other. You can hug each other. You can be warm with each other, and that doesn't mean that you have to feel some inappropriate thing.
We start thinking, if we feel like we want to hug someone, maybe we have some weird feeling toward them. Families should be having fun with each other. Families should be a safe place.
NEVILLE: But should we be kissing, though?
KAUFMAN: So, who do you practice with? That's my question.
CULLUM: Well, not with your family. Why don't you practice with your brother, if you are going to get that strange?
KAUFMAN: My brother was not cute.
NEVILLE: Joyce, I am going to have to come to Atlanta. We're going to have to have coffee. We got to talk about some things, Joyce.
In the meantime, Eric from Mississippi.
ERIC: I just want to point out that, in the Old Testament, Leah and Rachel were first cousins to their husband. They were two sisters who married their first cousin. And, if you trace it down through Biblical times, that has occurred. Therefore, who are we to come and say that this is not acceptable? Live and let live. Let people do what they need to do.
CULLUM: Oh, come on.
PETERSON: But you also have to realize, in the Old Testament that people didn't have spiritual laws to live by either. There wasn't any moral laws or guidelines that the people had to follow. We have those laws now.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: But you know what? About those laws, some people say: "Listen, even if I don't want to marry a cousin, it's none of the government's business to tell me I can't."
KAUFMAN: Exactly.
PETERSON: Well, I agree with that. Let them do what they want. We just don't have to accept it. We don't have to OK it as being normal. I don't think they should go to jail for it.
KAUFMAN: And let's just get priests to stop kissing altar boys, and I'll be happy.
NEVILLE: OK, then. On that note, we are going to take a little break.
There's a lot to say about kissing cousins. We're going to continue this after the break. And then later, we're going to go live to Wrigley Field, Wrigley Field, where some fans are taking a dim view of the Cubs this year.
Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody.
We are talking about whether it's a good idea to marry your cousin. And we are going to bring in Sharon from Missouri. She's on the line.
Go ahead, Sharon.
CALLER: Yes.
When I was younger, I had a -- oh, I was majorly in love with a cousin that lived in the country. And I would visit in the summertime. And it went on for several years. And I felt so guilty about it. And, as I got older, I found out through a family tree that I wasn't actually related to him. We were cousins by marriage.
NEVILLE: OK, so, Sharon, now that you know you weren't really cousins, can you tell me what happened?
CALLER: Oh, I haven't seen him in years.
NEVILLE: I mean during those summers.
CALLER: Oh, I followed him everywhere. I fawned over him.
CULLUM: Puppy love.
NEVILLE: Yes, that's puppy love. That's OK.
All right, now I think, Joyce, we have Chris from Indiana wants to say something to you.
CHRIS: Of the panelist on the TV screen, did you never go to elementary school and play on the jungle gym, and a boy comes up to you and say, "Hey, girl, can I get a kiss from you" or whatever? You don't kiss your cousins. You kiss people you know. That's disgusting.
KAUFMAN: I went to elementary school with my cousins.
(LAUGHTER)
CULLUM: Scary.
KAUFMAN: I grew up in New York. I didn't marry my cousin. I just kissed him.
CULLUM: So, in her family, a singles bar was a family reunion.
(LAUGHTER)
KAUFMAN: Exactly.
NEVILLE: Let's talk about this study here for a second. Now, what is up with the guy who conducted -- or the people who conducted this study? Is there a hidden agenda here?
KAUFMAN: Yes, he married his cousin.
NEVILLE: Maybe that's it.
RILEY: It must have been something.
PETERSON: Well, one thing is for sure. He can't be trusted with his cousin.
RILEY: Look, I assume they must have just looked at data or looked at something scientific to come to this conclusion. But this is not really, I don't think, a scientific issue.
(CROSSTALK)
RILEY: I agree with Reverend Peterson. I think the bottom line is, it's a moral issue.
And I think that, certainly, anybody who has ever been to a family reunion can understand how that is a moral issue. I come from a large family, a very clannish family, in a lot of ways. But we are not -- if you have those feelings, your family upbringing should teach you how to deal with them, short of having sex with your cousin.
(CROSSTALK)
KAUFMAN: Wait a second. I didn't say I had sex with my cousins.
RILEY: I'm not talking about you.
PETERSON: But kissing will lead to sex, sometimes.
KAUFMAN: Oh, really?
NEVILLE: Oh, come on, Reverend. It doesn't always lead to sex.
PETERSON: That's why I said sometimes, sometimes.
KAUFMAN: If I had sex with everybody I kissed...
CULLUM: We don't want to hear it.
NEVILLE: Yes, don't finish the rest.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Sharon from Illinois.
SHARON: I just wanted to stay that studies are a lot like statistics. You can manipulate them to say anything you want. So I kind of wonder about the person who did the study.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much. Absolutely.
Kit (ph) is on the line now. Kit, speak your mind.
CALLER: Yes, I have never heard such rubbish-spouting in my life. I have been married to my cousin for 18 years. And, until I came to the United States, it wasn't a problem. It seems to be that, for a modern, civilized country, you have a hangup about being married to your cousin.
PETERSON: That's why you came to the United States.
CALLER: No, I didn't. I came because my husband came.
PETERSON: Well, in the United States, there are moral values that we try to follow.
CALLER: Are you trying to tell me the United Kingdom doesn't have moral values?
PETERSON: That is why we have the greatest nation in the world.
(CROSSTALK)
CALLER: You don't have the greatest nation. You have one of the greatest nations in the world.
(CROSSTALK)
KAUFMAN: Are those the moral values I was watching on "Jerry Springer" and all those other shows last week?
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Excuse me. Excuse me. Time out. Time out. Time out.
Kit, here's a question for you. How were you related to your cousin?
CALLER: I'm sorry. I didn't hear that because of all the talk.
NEVILLE: How were you related to your cousin?
CALLER: He's my cousin. My father and his father are brother and sister.
PETERSON: Amazing.
CULLUM: Creepy.
CALLER: No, it's not creepy. There's nothing creepy about it. It's only here it's creepy. Talk to anybody that lives in Europe. It's not creepy.
PETERSON: I want to say to the caller, that is gross. It is sick. It is out of order.
CALLER: No, it's not. We have a very loving relationship. I've been married for 18 years.
PETERSON: It is still sick. It is still sick.
NEVILLE: Now, Kit, I have to ask you this.
CALLER: Who are you to judge?
PETERSON: The father and the mother are brother and sisters. Did you grow up like brother and sister?
CALLER: No, we actually didn't, because my husband was brought up in Scotland and I was brought up in England. So, we only saw one another occasionally during childhood.
KAUFMAN: And imagine that. They are still married. They are still married, unlike most others.
(CROSSTALK)
RILEY: I guess that's why they call it "The Madness of King George."
CALLER: No, "The Madness of King George" doesn't have a lot to do with that. The inbreeding is far greater.
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: In "The Madness of King George," because of the inbreeding is why he was supposed to have had that problem, absolutely. And there's even questions about some of the members of the present royal family.
(CROSSTALK)
KAUFMAN: Let me ask you a question. Should we should not have marriage between Jews because of Tay-Sachs? Should we not have marriage between blacks because of sickle cell anemia? At what point are you going to decide that it's dangerous?
PETERSON: It's not the same thing. It's not the same thing.
KAUFMAN: You choose it to not be.
PETERSON: Also, I would like to say to the caller that she and her cousin would be a good guest on "Jerry Springer" and
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: You know what we are going to do? Let's kiss the cousin goodbye.
All right, it's time to play ball. That's right. We're going to catch a view of Wrigley Field that has fans screaming foul.
Jeff Flock joins us from the bleachers right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Hello, everybody. Welcome back.
It's opening day at Wrigley Field in Chicago. And, for years, neighborhood fans have cheered their Cubs from rooftops across the street from the park. But today, there are some screens in place along the outfield wall, partially blocking the view. And Cub fans are not happy about it.
CNN Chicago bureau chief Jeff Flock is at Wrigley Field right now. And Jeff joins us.
And, Jeff, what is going on? The Cubs say this is about security. Is that what is really going on here? Why did they put up those screens?
JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: Arthel, I have got to tell you. I don't think anybody really believes it's about security.
You can see the screens up here. Perhaps if we pull out, you can see. I'm standing on Waveland Avenue. And these are the green screens that they have put up to try and partially block the view. We got a perspective from inside on the second level of one of these buildings where they watch it. And perhaps you can see, if we take that shot, that it really does kind of obscure the view, although you can sort of see through it.
And, just to tell you where we are with those camera positions, let's come back to our ground camera shot. Go ahead, Steve, and show them where we are and what these skyboxes and rooftop towers look like. This is where a lot of people for years have come to watch. And this building right here, Arthel, is one that was built specifically for people to come and watch the baseball over the wall. So they are all upset.
NEVILLE: Hey, now, Jeff, now, do those people have to pay to go up there? FLOCK: Oh, big time.
NEVILLE: Really?
FLOCK: A lot more than you have to pay to get into the ballpark. It could be up to $60 a ticket, and for a game that's really in demand, sometimes more. I talked to a guy yesterday who rented a whole rooftop for, I think he said $6,000. So we are talking real dollars here.
NEVILLE: So, now, do the Cubs get a cut of that at all?
FLOCK: No. This is all
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Oh, that might be the problem right there.
FLOCK: You said it.
NEVILLE: That's the problem, Jeff. You see, it's about cash.
FLOCK: And, you know, the other thing they want to do is, the Cubs want to build their own new stands out here to increase the capacity of the stadium right where I'm standing right now. And the problem is, if they do that, they will jack it up so high that they will block the rooftop views. So these guys are really upset about it.
NEVILLE: Jeff, I don't know about that. Thank you very much for that report, and interesting shots. Thanks a lot, Jeff.
FLOCK: Thanks, Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK, we'll talk to you later.
OK, panel, what do you think about this?
Mark, I'll start with you.
RILEY: Obviously, this has become a business enterprise for people. People are renting space out for $60 or $6,000 or whatever.
The Cubs, regardless of how they say or why they say they are doing it, have the right to do it. It's their ballpark. I remember -- I'm old enough to remember when you could stand on an elevated subway platform outside of Yankee Stadium and see the games too. Eventually, they built a wall so that you could no longer do that. I understand that the Cub fans are probably upset about the fact that they have a really great way to watch a ball game.
NEVILLE: Yes, just a little upset.
RILEY: But all they have to do is put a TV monitor up.
NEVILLE: All right, now, Brandon, you are from Illinois. Are you from Chicago?
BRANDON: Yes, I'm from Chicago.
I think the Cubs have already made enough money from selling tickets and all. The people on the rooftops are just trying to have fun and enjoy the game, and also using it as a business enterprise to make their own money. So, I think they should just let them do it.
NEVILLE: Blanquita, what do you think about that?
CULLUM: Well, you know, come on. How much does it cost for a family of four to go over there and see the Cubs?
KAUFMAN: Exactly.
CULLUM: It's too expensive. These guys have got
(CROSSTALK)
RILEY: Yes, but $60 a pop isn't cheap.
CULLUM: I know. I know. But I think we are getting to turn America's favorite sport into this highly commercial, lucrative enterprise. And people want to go back to loving baseball like they used to when you had some of those greats. We have independent agents. We don't have that same team spirit.
NEVILLE: The fun stuff.
CULLUM: They have got to find out the seats where the people that can't afford to really go, they ought to find a place for those people to be able to see the sport.
RILEY: They used to be called the bleachers.
CULLUM: Yes, but now try to go there.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Audience, help me out here. It's about that "Take me out to the Ball game." You all know it. Hit it. Hit it. Somebody knows that.
CULLUM AND KAUFMAN (singing): Take me out to the ball game. Take me out to the crowd.
CULLUM (singing): Buy me some peanuts and cracker jacks. I don't care if I ever come back.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: We all know it. All right.
PETERSON: If I'm there next door to the stadium, and I could go on the top of my roof, I would have that same temptation. I would want to go up and just look over. But what we have to realize, these people are in business to make money. And it's not fair to the other fans who have to pay to go in.
NEVILLE: Yes, right. All right, guys. I'm going to give Dennis here the last word.
Dennis, go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Time out, people. Time out.
DENNIS: In a way, I don't blame the Cubs. They have a product. And they are there. That's a business. And if people were infringing on my business, I would be upset, too. This is not neighbors gathering for a beer and having a good time. That's a commercial enterprise on that building there. And the Cubs deserve royalties.
NEVILLE: All right, well, thank you very much for that comment.
KAUFMAN: But what more can we do to destroy baseball in this country?
NEVILLE: Oh, let's not do that. It's our favorite pastime.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: And speaking of time, we are out of it.
They're not listening to me.
Blanquita Cullum, Mark Riley...
CULLUM: Thank you, Arthel.
NEVILLE: And thank you, Reverend Peterson. And Joyce Kaufman, thank you so much.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: I really enjoyed it, "Free-for-All Friday."
KAUFMAN: And kiss a cousin.
NEVILLE: No, no, don't do it.
CULLUM: Don't tell Joyce that. She'll do it.
NEVILLE: Monday, author Michael Moore will be here in Atlanta to talk about his best-selling book. It's called -- where is it? -- "Stupid White Men." There it is. I'll see you then. Have a great weekend. I will.
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