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Frank Gaffney of Center for Security Policy Discusses Conflict in Israel

Aired April 10, 2002 - 10:11   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Washington search for peace propels Secretary of State Colin Powell across several regions of the world. He is appealing to Russian and European leaders to support U.S. peace efforts in the Middle East. And his latest stop on this consensus- building tour is Madrid, Spain.

Our State Department correspondent, Andrea Koppel, is traveling with the secretary on these many stops. We check in with her right now -- good morning, Andrea.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Leon. Well, it was not a tough sell to the Europeans, the United Nations or the Russians. All of these governments expressing grave concern for the current situation in the Middle East, expressing concern over the real risk of a wider regional conflict, and also about the impending humanitarian crisis as well. All governments calling really in an even-handed way for an end to both Israel's military incursion in the West Bank and in Gaza to a certain degree, as well as calling for an end to incitement by the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, and urging him to exert a maximum effort to stop terrorist attacks.

But really, some of the toughest talk was reserved for Israel. The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan speaking out about the enormous suffering for innocent civilians, in his words, in the West Bank and Gaza.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: I am frankly appalled by the humanitarian situation. The international community demands that the government of Israel on its obligation on international law to protect civilians and that the idea stop the damage to and destruction of civilian and personal property. Respect for international humanitarian law and the humanitarian organizations is the most basic requirement for any nation that lays claim to democracy and membership of the international community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: Now, there were no new ideas offered per se as to how to end this humanitarian crisis and the current conflict in the Middle East. In fact, one senior European official said that Secretary Powell isn't going to be able to pull a rabbit out of his hat, when he arrives in Israel tomorrow evening. But even so, Secretary Powell did reiterate what he has been saying now for the last number of days, and that is that there doesn't have to be a cease-fire in place in order to move ahead with political discussions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think we are all in agreement and I think the world is in agreement that there will not be a solution that will be produced by terror or be produced by response to terror. This is not going to get us there. What will get us there are political discussions, and the sooner we can get to them, the better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: Now, in order to reach that point though, Leon, Secretary Powell is going to have to get both the Israelis and Palestinians to agree to step back from the brink. He has, over the objections of Ariel Sharon, said that he will meet and does plan to meet with Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, when he arrives there.

But there is another concern, Leon, that was expressed here today in Madrid, and that is the real fear of a second front opening on Israel's northern boarder with Lebanon. We heard a number of the Europeans say that they were reaching out to both the Syrians and to the Iranian governments, which have a lot of influence with Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon, to try to get them to restrain Hezbollah from preventing this situation, in the words of one official, from going from bad to worse to appalling -- Leon.

HARRIS: Exactly. Andrea Koppel there in Madrid -- thank you very much. We sure appreciate that.

Now, let's get some political and military perspective on all of this. Frank Gaffney is the found and president for the Washington- based Center for Security Policy. He is also a former assistant secretary of defense, who specialized in arms control and nuclear policy.

He joins us from Washington -- good morning, sir -- thank you very much for your time today.

FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: My pleasure, Leon.

HARRIS: Let's begin with that last point that we heard Andrea Koppel make about a second front opening there possibly coming from Lebanon. What do you think about that possibility and whether it's a probability?

GAFFNEY: I think it is a very high probability, because what preceded it was the withdrawal of Israel from a security zone that kept such threats from threatening Israel itself. There were attacks in that security zone, a couple of cross-border shots. But the idea of a massive problem on Israel's northern border was precluded, because there were security forces in place on Israel's part and with its allies on the northern side of that border.

This is very relevant to something that Bill Schneider pointed out in what I think was a really commendable piece. I am delighted that CNN ran it. If you saw that map that he overlaid on top of the state of New Hampshire, that map there is an uncanny resemblance to the map that Yasser Arafat uses to describe what he sees as Palestine.

And the danger here and what gives such moment to the territorial dispute, as some would have it, that Israel confronts right now is if Israel were induced much as it did in Lebanon to withdraw from the West Bank, it is entirely not only possible, but highly probable that you would have a front there that would do what it has time and time and time again before. Namely become the springboard for Arab armies to attack Israel with the hope of destroying it all together. That's the underlying crux of this problem.

HARRIS: But see, and the thing is that is exactly what Yasser Arafat and the Palestinians have been asking all along is for withdrawal from these areas. The wider Arab world has been saying the same thing. You are saying if that withdrawal actually does happen from those occupied territories that it is guaranteed to become that sort of a springboard?

GAFFNEY: Well, you've got a couple of considerations. In at least four previous occasions, '48, '56, '67 and '73, it was. In the case of Yasser Arafat, he keeps talking about a plan of phases adopted formally by the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1974 that envisions using the territory that they get Israel to give them in phase 1 as the springboard for the destruction of the state of Israel in phase 2. And the constant use of this map, Leon, on police uniforms, in offices, on TV programs, in textbooks used to teach the children of Palestine about their role in the jihad and intifada and to be martyrs as Yasser Arafat keeps calling them to be, all of this suggests that the endgame remains is it was in 1965, when the Palestine Liberation Organization was established two years before there were any so-called occupied territories in Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights.

HARRIS: Well, let me ask you...

GAFFNEY: The occupied territories in short that they are concerned about, I believe and that Israelis are so concerned about is they think Israel itself is occupied territory.

HARRIS: Well, what do you then make of what we are hearing now from officials like Colin Powell saying that there doesn't necessarily have to be a cease-fire before any negotiations take place? It would seem that if, going by what you are saying in describing this situation, there are these martyrs being manufactured every single day, and that talk coming from Yasser Arafat himself along those lines. If you don't have a cease-fire, how can you be convinced that enough of the key minds have been changed?

GAFFNEY: I don't think the minds are being changed at all, if we convey the impression that the Colin Powells of the world are coming to the Middle East or to Madrid and elsewhere and conveying against Israel and urging that the Palestinians be rewarded for violence. You know, this is a mind set that has gotten us into the mess we are in today.

Compare the intifada of today with the intifada of a decade ago, and it is obvious the process-mindedness. Just get them talking, just keep them negotiating, just keep Israel making concessions has got us into a place, where it is very like, I'm afraid, another process, another negotiation where the world community said to another state, don't mind about the details, give them territory. That state was Czechoslovakia in 1938. It led to Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia, the destruction of an allied powerful western power democracy and a horrible war that followed. I am afraid we are sowing the seeds for a very similar kind of larger conflict, if we make Israel do something that will translate, I am afraid, to its destruction.

HARRIS: Well me ask you -- if you can quickly give us an idea of what you think is necessary for Secretary Powell to have in his bags to come out of here successful?

GAFFNEY: My personal recommendation, it's heretical I know, but I wouldn't have Secretary Powell go to the region. I would require that there be new Palestinian leadership that renounces this map calling for no Israel, and that is prepared, in fact, to make a durable and just peace and live side by side with Israel. That leadership does not exist today, and it may not come if we keep saying, if only there's more terrorism, we will press Israel for more concessions.

HARRIS: Frank Gaffney, very interesting views. We sure thank you for coming in and sharing them with us this morning.

GAFFNEY: Appreciate it. Thank you.

HARRIS: Hope to talk to you later on.

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