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CNN Live Today

Interview with Christopher Dickey

Aired April 10, 2002 - 14:09   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: In a speech in Washington a short time ago, Former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu compared Israel's enemy to those the United States is fighting. And he says the U.S. government shouldn't make Israel apply a higher standard in defending itself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, FMR. ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Faced with the quintessential terrorist regime of our time, a regime that both harbors and perpetrates terror on an unimaginable scale, the free world is muddling its principles, losing its nerve, and thereby endangering the successful prosecution of this war.

The question many in my country are now asking is this: will America apply its principles consistently and win this war? Or will it selectively abandon these principles, and thereby risk ultimately losing the war?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, a short time after Mr. Netanyahu's speech, the top Palestinian official offered his response and a differing view.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABDUL RAHMAN, PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE TO THE U.S.: He's trying to compare between the U.S. struggle against terrorism. We join U.S. struggle against terrorism. Because those who attacked New York and Washington were committing an act of aggression against the United States. Because the United States did not have Jewish-American settlements in Afghanistan, and the United States was not occupying Afghanistan in the same way that Israel is occupying the Palestinian territories.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: For more on the developments on the ground in the Mideast, the diplomatic effort and what may lie ahead, we're joined from Jerusalem, Christopher Dickey. He's the Middle East editor of "Newsweek" magazine.

Christopher, good to see you.

CHRISTOPHER DICKEY, "NEWSWEEK": Good to see you.

PHILLIPS: Well, first response. Benjamin Netanyahu standing up firm, saying Yasser Arafat needs to be -- he and his regime need to be dismantled. Do you agree with that? Do you think it is time for a new Palestinian leader in order to accomplish something here?

DICKEY: Who's going to pick the new Palestinian leader? Benjamin Netanyahu or Ariel Sharon? And what kind of credibility is that leader going to have if they pick him? See, that's the paradox here, and I think that's what Secretary of State Powell is trying to get around.

You can say you don't like Arafat. Most people who dealt with Arafat don't like Arafat. You can say that he's has supported terrorism, and he has. But ultimately, if you're going to make a deal with the Palestinians, if you're going to make peace with the Palestinians, you've got to talk to Arafat. There's just no way around him.

PHILLIPS: Well, and -- Netanyahu -- I don't mean to keep referring to his interview, but he brought up a number of very interesting points. And I wanted to ask you specifically about this, because couldn't help but think of a correlation. He's coming out and talking about these terrorist camps. He's talking about kindergarten terrorist training camps, that Yasser Arafat has supported and pushed for in this area. Is this someone that you can sit down and negotiate with, or is this an Osama bin Laden?

DICKEY: Well, first of all, no, no. He's not an Osama bin Laden. He's a very shrewd politician who is in touch with the emotions of his people and sometimes guides the emotions of his people, which are centered on one central issue, which is getting back their land. That's the difference between him and Osama bin Laden.

Osama bin Laden is a religious ideologue who has an apopleptic vision of attacking the United States to solve all kinds of religious problems. That's not what Arafat is about. That's not what the Palestinian issue is about. And Arafat supported some horrific terrorism. And there's no excuse for the kinds of games he has played, sick games, with suicide bombers inside Israel.

And you can understand the fury of the Israeli people at the Palestinians, for embracing those kinds of tactics. But at the end of the day, the struggle in Palestine and in Israel has really very little to do with the kind of struggle that's been fought in Afghanistan against Osama bin Laden.

PHILLIPS: Point well made. Now, back to the issue of Yasser Arafat. Whether it be now, whether in the close future or long term, let's talk about possible new leadership, aside from Yasser Arafat. An old guard and a new guard we want to talk about. First of all, the old guard. Tell us what you know about Ahmad Korei. Am I saying that name right?

DICKEY: Yes. Ahmad Korei is a fine diplomatic voice within the Palestinian community. He was the man who was running the secret negotiations that led to the Oslo agreements in 1993. I think he's respected as a voice of moderation, as a hard-dealing diplomat, but someone that you can talk to in the Palestinian leadership.

But I don't think he had a lot of credibility on the street. He's a good man to talk to the Israelis, a good man to talk to Washington. But he's not the man who's going to lead the Palestinian people to peace, I would say.

PHILLIPS: Mahmoud Abbas.

DICKEY: Abu Mazen, he's called. Also a fine negotiator, a man of moderation. A wise man, if you will, in the Palestinian ranks. And often named as the official successor, or semi-official successor, of Arafat in past years. He was involved in negotiations with Yossi Beilin, representative of the labor government, back in the mid-1990s, in an effort to come with a plan that, actually, in my ways, is still the best plan for peace in the region.

But ultimately, he's a rather colorless figure, and not the kind of people that I think the Palestinian people have a lot of confidence in. And you see both of these men being a little bit marginalized by Arafat in these tumultuous times.

PHILLIPS: He also lacks military experience. Could that be a good thing?

DICKEY: Well, it could be. But the question is credibility. Right now the Palestinians and the Israelis feel that they're at war. And on the Palestinian side, they want wartime leaders, leaders who have the credibility of being out there on the street and fighting.

It's very interesting that the people around Arafat right now in the bunker, who have been around with him since the moment that siege began, are people who were around him in the bunker in Beirut, Lebanon, when he was besieged by Sharon 20 years ago there. Fighters, people he thinks are very, very personally loyal to him. Not necessarily the same people that go out and talk peace with the Israelis and talk peace with the United States.

PHILLIPS: All right, someone who's cracked down pretty hard on Islamic militants, Jabril Rajoub.

DICKEY: Jabril Rajoub is an interesting character. He is the preventive security chief in the West Bank. And his role was precisely to be the enforcer for the peace accords. To get the list of wanted men from the Israeli intelligence services, from the CIA in some cases, and go after him and round them up. And he did more of that, probably than anybody else in the Palestinian Authority.

He's a charismatic figure. He can speak very well in Arabic. And I think that he's the kind of man that the -- probably the Americans and the Israelis would have like to see replace Arafat. But he's lost a lot of credibility recently because he surrendered all his men once they were under siege. And he also surrendered his prisoners to the Israelis, in the action of the last few weeks. And so as a result, the people on the street, even here in Jerusalem, in the Palestinian areas, they'll tell you Jabril Rajoub is no good in their view.

PHILLIPS: All right, one more individual that has been talked about lately, Christopher, and that's Mohamed Dahlan.

DICKEY: Mohamed Dahlan has the same kind of job that Jabril Rajoub has, except he has it in Gaza. Oddly enough, Mohamed Dahlan has been in Ramallah in the West Bank, throughout this crisis, sort of waiting in the wings. And what you see is that the Israelis haven't been going after people like Dahlan, and mostly, haven't gone after Rajoub or any of the people we've mentioned.

And you get the impression that they are trying to cultivate a new leadership of people that they've dealt with before, and that they feel are -- well, straight shooters maybe not be the term to use -- but that they talk more frankly and honestly and openly, and realistically with them, than Arafat, who very often, is like nailing Jello to a wall.

But at the end of the day, these guys don't have the credibility. If something happens to Arafat, all that could change. But right now, he's the leader of the Palestinian people. And you're not going to get anybody to second-guess that fact at this moment. None of those people that you've mentioned.

PHILLIPS: Christopher Dickey from "Newsweek" magazine. Enjoy your work. We appreciate you being with us. Bit of a different perspective today. Thank you.

DICKEY: Thank you, Kyra.

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