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Interview With King Abdullah

Aired April 11, 2002 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Earlier we talked about King Abdullah. He had his meeting with secretary of state at the palace outside of Amman. For an exclusive interview right now as to what the two talked about, we're going to go there now, with our senior international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, who's with King Abdullah.

Christiane, good evening.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening from Amman, Bill. And indeed, Secretary Powell came here not just to speak about what was going on, but also to enlist the help of very key Arab allies, particularly those allies who have already made peace with Israel, notably Jordan.

And we are here now with his majesty, King Abdullah II. Thank you for joining us. We've just listened to the secretary and your foreign minister give their statements about the situation. Specifically, Secretary Powell said that they want to move aggressively -- that was his word -- to a political track to get some political action. Did he come with a new plan?

KING ABDULLAH II, JORDAN: Well, we obviously talked about the importance of having a phased approach to bringing both sides to the peace table as quickly as possible. Obviously that depends on his success with Prime Minister Sharon tomorrow and with Arafat on Sunday.

But at the end of the day, what we need is an endgame -- a series of steps that will take us to a final solution. And needs to be identified in the next two days.

AMANPOUR: So it's not even identified yet -- the mechanism that you've spoken about, your foreign minister spoke about?

ABDULLAH: Well, no, I think everybody understands what's at stake, a Palestinian state, security for Israel. But having to get the commitment from Arafat and Sharon to be able to implement that is what needs to be discussed between the secretary of state and Arafat and Ariel Sharon, in the next few days.

AMANPOUR: What specifically has he asked you to do? What can you do, I suppose, with Arafat?

ABDULLAH: Again, Jordan has always been with Egypt and many of the other moderate countries. An element of being able to bring people together. We are in specific discussions with Arafat to give him the support, to give him the mandate to be able to have the leeway, I guess, to say to be able to come with a phased approach.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe, given his almost mythic status now -- since he's been besieged by the Israelis, his status amongst the Arab people is very high. Do you think he is in a position of strength? Can he do things that would require compromise and concession?

ABDULLAH: I think that he's the all-time hero in the Middle East. He's in a stronger position than any other leader at the moment, because of the popularity he has with his own people, the Palestinians, but with that of the Arab world. So he is a very strong position, I believe, to move peace forward. An I hope that with that strength will come the vision to be able to talk to the Israelis and move away from the violence.

AMANPOUR: Given the unprecedented nature of the violence, given the historic antipathy, a nice word to use, between Arafat and Sharon, do you think that those two leaders are capable of doing what needs to be done now?

ABDULLAH: They have to. I mean, the alternative is violence on a scale that we've never seen before in this part of the world. I think both leaders -- as we said, Arafat is in a strong position with the Arab public. Sharon is very strong with the Israeli public. These are two people that can use strength to be able to put their differences aside. And if both of them lose this opportunity, then we're in a very sorry state of affairs here in the Middle East.

AMANPOUR: Do you detect, after your conversations, any new coherence in U.S. policy, this U.S. administration's policy, towards the Middle East?

ABDULLAH: Yes, I do. I think that the president's statement was balanced. I think that he charged both sides that they needed to do more. Powell is a very gifted statesman that understands what needs to be done.

Our job, in Jordan and all other countries that want to have peace, is to give all the support to Powell to achieve success in his position.

AMANPOUR: President Bush, in his speech last week, specifically asked Arab leaders to do several things. To publicly denounce terrorism and violence, to call suicide bombers murderers, not martyrs, to stop funding suicide bombing and stop funding their families, stop funding terrorism and certainly to stop incitement on state-controlled media. What have you done in this country, to meet those requests or demands by the U.S.?

ABDULLAH: Jordan has always stood against terrorism or extremism. We have always been a country that never has condoned acts of violence, and always supported a platform that goes against the loss of innocent lives. Our position with the United States on 11 September was very clear. We jumped in with both feet to support you. But we have to understand that the fundamental problem here is when a 16-year-old girl goes and blows herself up, it's the root of the problem that we need to be able to look at. The root of the problem is that the Israeli government looks at this as a security problem.

It's never been a security problem, it's a political one. Thirty-five years of occupation. And unless they understand that giving dignity, hope and future for the Palestinians, we'll never be able to get ourselves out of the cycle of violence.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you specifically about suicide bombings, which has, quite frankly, revolted much of the world. The suicide bombing of civilians in Israel has been considered untenable by many civilized people in this world. Arab leaders are being asked to condemn suicide bombings of civilians.

I think nobody would argue that the Palestinians have a right to resist. But do you believe that the suicide bombing of Israeli civilians is A, justified. And B, does it serve the Palestinians' political objectives?

ABDULLAH: Well, again, we've never, ever supported. We've always stood against extremism. And I think the Jordanian position has been very clear and we've always spoken out against any acts of violence that ends up with the loss of innocent lives.

And in that respect, I believe that other Arab leaders have also stood up against extremism. And even Arafat, not long ago, had stood up to say that what was happening against Israeli civilians was something that was wrong. But you have to understand at the same time, as you alluded to, that there is desperation, there is anger.

And unfortunately, when you get to the extreme level of hatred that is now on the street, desperate people will do desperate things, unfortunately. And we have to realize that the humanity has gone out of the window. And we have to bring some sort of balance and fairness. At the same time, atrocities are happening across the board.

AMANPOUR: Let me just try this again. Resistance, many people feel, is justified, resistance against the military, resistance against military targets. But when it comes to killing innocent civilians, many people view that as unjustified, immoral and essentially murder. Again, do you believe that suicide bombings of civilians is justified?

ABDULLAH: I personally do not. And I've always stood against the loss of life, terrorism or extremism, in all its form, me, as a person. Although there is the feeling, whether rightly or wrongly, in the Arab street that that is the only mechanism that the Palestinians have in retaliating. But again, it's the root cause of the problem. When a 16-year-old girl, as I said, blows herself up, there is a problem there. We have to solve the problem.

AMANPOUR: Do you think this has been counterproductive to the Palestinians' cause?

ABDULLAH: Well, it's been counterproductive, in the point that it gives the Israeli government the excuse, or the platform that they have the high moral ground. And I think we need to be able to move beyond that and solve, as I said, the political problem at the end of the day.

AMANPOUR: Much has been made of Colin Powell and President Bush's dropping the word "immediate" or "without delay," from demanding Ariel Sharon withdraw his troops from the occupied territories. Do you, like many in the Arab world, believe that the U.S. has essentially facilitated, certainly this last week of incursions, by not using the word "immediate," or by delaying Colin Powell's trip to the very end of the week?

ABDULLAH: Well, I think that the American statements have been very strong from the minute that this calamity befell us, on asking the Israelis to move out immediately. So we have seen some movement on the Israeli armed forces, but nowhere near enough. And all I can is, we need persistent, stronger voice from the Americans to make sure that the pullout is done, immediately, as you said.

The longer that you go on, the more Palestinians are killed or wounded, or beaten up. The more you're going to build a new generation of hatred and of violence and extremism.

AMANPOUR: Did Colin Powell -- you just shared a meal with him here in your residence -- did he say how he or President Bush feels about being repeatedly dissed or defied by Prime Minister Sharon?

ABDULLAH: We didn't get into specifics like that. But there was definitely a sense of frustration that the American administration has felt, in not being able to get, in this particular case, the Israeli army to move as quickly as it should have. But I believe those views will be aired between Colin Powell and Prime Minister Sharon tomorrow. And let's hope there is a positive outcome.

AMANPOUR: Did he say what he would tell Sharon?

ABDULLAH: What he did say is he was going to have a very honest, straightforward, blunt discussion with him, which is what I've always come to expect from the secretary of state.

AMANPOUR: That he would demand an immediate withdrawal, or do you anticipate this going on longer?

ABDULLAH: I believe that the secretary of state understands that the quicker -- in other words, an immediate withdrawal -- is what is needed to bring down the cycle of violence and give Arafat a chance to move in the right direction. So I would imagine, without putting words into the secretary of state's mouth, that he will be insistent on a very quick reaction.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe that Sharon's intransigence makes the United States, makes President Bush, look ineffectual? ABDULLAH: Well, I think it has stumped all of us, because there is an international reaction to get the Israelis to stop what they're doing, but there is no response, positive response, from the Israeli side. It has, I think, frustrated everybody. And I would imagine that would be the same for the president of the United States.

At the end of the day, America is the key element in being able to bring peace to the Israelis and the Palestinians. And so America's work and America's position should be heeded with great strength.

AMANPOUR: Do you think that its influence has suffered any sort of loss over the past couple of weeks?

ABDULLAH: Well, I think that there has been a negative impression in the Middle East, where they think that -- those that want to interpret it as a lack of willingness by the Americans to be evenhanded. And I'm sure it's frustrated Americans and Europeans, that they're not being taken as seriously as they should be.

AMANPOUR: When it comes to talking to Yasser Arafat, from your conversations with Secretary Powell, is the U.S. of a view now that Arafat needs to be offered any kind of tangible incentive in order to call for an end to the violence and rejoin the political track?

ABDULLAH: Well, I think the incentives are based on humanity. The incentives are that here's a man who's isolated. His infrastructure, the PNA, has been taken completely apart. His people are in desolation, desperate sufferings going on throughout the West Bank.

He needs to be given a window of opportunity. In other words, there needs to be a sort of reaching out for the Israeli side that they can move beyond the isolation of Arafat, to being able to include him into further discussions.

AMANPOUR: Have you talked to Yasser Arafat in the last couple of weeks, since he's been besieged?

ABDULLAH: Yes. Obviously, we've been in contact with him throughout the whole of the intifada over the past year and a half. And especially since he was isolated in Ramallah -- to the simple thing of trying to get him food and electricity on one weekend, and the other weekend he didn't have water to take medication. And he called me to work the phones basically, to do even those simple things. Let alone the political workings of the phones, to get a balanced approach to.

AMANPOUR: Do you get a sense, when you talk to him, that he feels that the current strategy of violent resistance is paying off politically?

ABDULLAH: I didn't get that impression. Obviously he was very concerned of what was happening, because once violence starts to take a life of its own, it's very difficult to control. And I think that he understood very clearly that his people were suffering at the end of the day, and that he needed to bring a stop to this as quickly as possible.

ABDULLAH: So, what are you able to do now, in terms of, let's say there's a new initiative, if there is, with Colin Powell, certainly seeking more involvement from Jordan and Egypt than perhaps in the previous political track under Oslo. Where do you see Jordan and Egypt being able to do the most? And what can you do?

ABDULLAH: Jordan and Egypt can assist the United States in identifying a series of realistic steps, to try to bring the Israelis and the Palestinians together. Jordan, on the other hand, is the only avenue of relief supplies, humanitarian aid, into the West Bank. And therefore, the immense human suffering that is undergoing in the West Bank now, the only relief is across our borders.

So we have the political capability on one hand, but easing the suffering of the Palestinians an the other. And I think it's the humanitarian catastrophe that's going to continue to unfold over the next couple of weeks, that is going to take a lot of our time. We've been working with NGOs and humanitarian groups.

What I'm getting from them is, the West Bank is in very bad shape. And people are suffering, people are dying. And Jordan, with its meager resources, as the secretary of state said, will do what we can. But I think the United States and the rest of the world is going to try to help. The avenue is Jordan, to be able to do that.

AMANPOUR: What do you think realistically is going to happen, in the course of Colin Powell's visit to Israel and to the territories? Where do you see this going?

ABDULLAH: Well, I hope that Prime Minister Sharon will listen very seriously to what Secretary of State Powell has to say, on behalf of the president of the United States. Will accept what the Americans are trying to say to the Israelis, that they need to do. And on Sunday, same thing from Yasser Arafat, that he complies, again, also from what the Americans want.

And if we can get a basis of understanding by the Israelis and the Palestinians, then I think we can all move together to take it to the next step -- Mitchell, and on from there.

AMANPOUR: And do you at all have any conversations -- after all, you're at peace with Israel. Have you picked up the phone and talked to Ariel Sharon?

ABDULLAH: We've been in contact with the Israeli side as we always have been, on the political aspects, so that we can assist in diffusing. I think that the strength that people don't understand is, because we can speak to both sides, as I explained earlier, when Israelis have a problem and need messages sent to the Palestinians, this is where Jordan can play a role, and vice versa.

And obviously, we've been working the phones, as I said, over the past several weeks. Not only with the western world, but with the Israelis and with the Palestinians. The Israelis, in recent days, on getting humanitarian aid into Jenin, Bethlehem, Nablus and the other cities that are under crisis.

AMANPOUR: In terms of the political plan for the future, are we just going to try to expect sort of a status quo ante to two weeks ago, or is there a real feeling that this moment could produce some meaningful way forward?

ABDULLAH: You have to have a meaningful symbol. You need to identify a goal, that both the Israelis and Palestinians can reach out for. If it's just going to be a series of visits by leaders, we're not going to get anywhere. It all comes down to the importance of the success that Colin Powell has tomorrow with Ariel Sharon and Arafat.

If he can open the door, just ajar, then the rest of us can get the momentum going.

AMANPOUR: And -- I guess -- I think everybody is sort of flummoxed by just how do you get the momentum going, with these two intransigent figures? How do you think that you can convince -- Arafat, I suppose he's the one you have to pressure.

ABDULLAH: Well, it actually comes down to how successful -- and I do not envy Secretary of State Powell, because it's a make-it or break-it trip, I see, to both these leaders, to say this is what's going to take and this is what we expect from you. We, as the United States, are saying to both sides, you're going to do 1, 2, 3.

Once we understand a bit more of what Colin Powell has achieved with both those parties, then we can build on that. And so unfortunately, as frustrated as all of us are, we're going to have to see what Saturday and Sunday provides. And I hope to god that there is that window that we can...

AMANPOUR: You hope. But do you think that the U.S. has an influence over either Sharon or Arafat right now?

ABDULLAH: I think the United States has an influence if it puts the right weight and authority to be able to get both sides. It is the United States of America, at the end of the day. I think that the president is a very strong president. He has a strong administration. Him and Colin Powell, if they say this is what's going to happen, it will happen. But you need that strength from the United States.

AMANPOUR: And you think he's going to tell Ariel Sharon that he has to be prepared to sit down in political negotiations?

ABDULLAH: I hope so.

AMANPOUR: You don't know for sure.

ABDULLAH: Well, no, I mean, I'm sure that's going to be the case. I just hope that the other side takes what has been said to them.

AMANPOUR: On that note, thank you very much indeed.

ABDULLAH: OK, thank you. AMANPOUR: Your majesty, King Abdullah of Jordan.

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