Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Saturday

Interviews With Wesley Clark, Paul Bremer

Aired April 13, 2002 - 12:37   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're standing by, we're waiting for the official announcement from Secretary of State Colin Powell's delegation, an announcement that he will go forward tomorrow and meet with Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader, in the West Bank town of Ramallah.

For some perspective on all of these developments, I want to bring in the former NATO supreme allied commander, the retired General Wesley Clark. He joins us from Little Rock, Arkansas. And Paul Bremer, the former U.S. ambassador at large for counterterrorism over at the State Department. Paul Bremer, he joins us from our studios in Washington.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. And General Clark, first to you. A lot of people don't know or don't appreciate the fact that you, as the European supreme allied commander in Europe, you were responsible for this part of the world, at least for the Israeli-West Bank part of the world. What is your assessment of all these very tragic, sad developments that have occurred and the impact on U.S. interests here?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Well, it's a military struggle, and it's both sides using the weapons that they have at their disposal, Wolf. And it appears that neither side right now is willing to concede defeat, neither side can see its total victory in the offing, and so the struggle is continuing, and that's what Colin Powell really has to do is do the assessment and get the sides to do an honest assessment and see if they're ready to move ahead toward a political process. That's the key.

BLITZER: But General Clark, can you see Secretary Powell even achieving a relatively modest goal, which isn't so modest, because a lot of lives are at stake, namely a cease-fire?

CLARK: I can't see that, Wolf, because, as we have looked at this, and I've used the experience of the mission that Ambassador Holbrooke and I went on in 1995, which although there are differences, there are also similarities. The two parties haven't fought themselves out, unfortunately. And until Yasser Arafat believes terrorism is no longer going to be an effective weapon or until the Israelis acknowledge they simply can't handle what's happening, both parties are going to want to grind ahead.

The key on this problem, I believe, is bringing the Arab states in to convince Yasser Arafat if he doesn't stop it, he'll have no more support. And in that role, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt will be decisive.

BLITZER: Ambassador Bremer, as you know, before coming here to Jerusalem, Secretary Powell did meet with those leaders of the friendly Arab countries, the more moderate Arab countries, friendly with the United States. Do you agree with that gloomy assessment that we just heard from General Clark?

PAUL BREMER, FORMER STATE DEPT. OFFICIAL: I'm afraid I do. I don't put much stake in the statement that Arafat has put out. This is a man who, after all, renounced terrorism on the White House lawn nine years ago and proceeded to violate it every year since then, who has violated every cease-fire agreement he's reached over the years.

There's no getting around the fact that Yasser Arafat is a terrorist, and the documentation that the Israelis have captured in the course of the last two weeks is very persuasive on his direct, immediate and personal role in ordering and condoning and paying for terrorist attacks in Israel.

So he's a terrorist. And it used to be our policy that we didn't negotiate with terrorists. So it's a little hard for me to see what actually can come out of this meeting tomorrow that can be good.

BLITZER: Well, do you think, Ambassador Bremer, that Secretary Powell should not be meeting with Arafat tomorrow?

BREMER: I think now that he's in the region, he is forced to go ahead with the meeting. I don't think this was a trip that was wisely undertaken, because, in effect, the trip itself is rewarding terrorism. It's quite clear that Powell would not be in the region had it not been for the suicide bombings. And in effect, it's going to now be, I think, very difficult to persuade Arafat, even if he has a meeting, even if he gives his signature to another cease-fire, it's going to be very difficult to persuade him that terrorism doesn't work because, in fact, it has worked.

BLITZER: You know, I have been speaking, General Clark, to Palestinians and Israelis who make a point that it seemed to have worked in Lebanon and that seems to have had a tremendous impact on the Palestinian leadership, namely that years of punishing Israeli troops in Lebanon finally resulted in an Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon. The Hezbollah, the Iranian and Syrian backed groups, working against the Israelis in Lebanon, the Israelis pulled out. They think if they continue to do a similar kind of operation in the West Bank and Gaza, perhaps that will convince the Israelis to pull out from there as well. Are they wrong in their thinking?

CLARK: Wolf, I think that you're exactly right, that is what they think, and that's what is fueling this conflict and keeping it going. But they're wrong in their understanding of why Israel pulled out. Israel pulled out, I believe, in a strategic move by Ehud Barak to gain legitimacy. They wanted to take away the use of their occupation of Lebanon, southern Lebanon, as a cause celebre, as something that world leaders can point to and say, Israelis are illegally in southern Lebanon.

Barak said, OK, pull out, let's pull out, let's gain legitimacy. He then carried this legitimacy into Camp David. He made extraordinary concessions to Yasser Arafat, and he turned the tables on Arafat. This, of course, was why Arafat, I guess, couldn't accept the agreement, because suddenly Israel was being magnanimous and generous and fully in accordance or trying to be in accordance with the international law. And Arafat is using international law and public impressions around the world as pressure points against Israel. But where he's made a mistake is the use of these suicide bombings is discrediting the Palestinian cause.

BLITZER: And Ambassador Bremer, you're a man of enormous experience in this part of the world, going back to your days when you worked with Secretary of State Kissinger during the early, formative days of shuttle diplomacy after the 1973 Israeli/Arab war.

As much as the attention is focused now on the West Bank and what is happening right outside of Jerusalem, where I am, I have to tell you, a lot of officials, a lot of senior Israeli officials are even more concerned potentially about what is going to happen along the border between Israel and Lebanon, especially an escalation involving Israeli attacks against Syrian positions in Lebanon, if those Hezbollah mortars continue to come into northern Israel. How concerned should the U.S. be about an escalation on the northern front of Israel?

BREMER: I think we should be concerned, and I presume we have used our diplomatic relations with Syria, it's the only state with which we have diplomatic relations which we consider a terrorist state. I presume we are having very direct, frank and tough talks with the Syrians about restraining the Hezbollah activities in the north.

I must say, there's another conclusion you can come to from the analysis that General Clark gave, which was that the retreat, the headlong retreat, in effect, out of Lebanon by Barak in the spring of 2000 was a great strategic mistake, because, in effect, he then went forward and put forward the most forthcoming position ever; Arafat turned it down, at least probably concluding he had the Israelis on the run.

And that's the problem that we face now. We have to change the way Arafat considers the situation. And this is a man who escaped near death in 1970 in Jordan, he escaped again in Beirut in 1982. He was brought back from isolation in Tunis in 1993 to join the Oslo process.

He must think that he has nine lives and he can continue to lie to us that he's not supporting terrorism. But it's all there. Very clearly, he does support terrorism.

And you know, the administration faces an interesting problem here, Wolf. By Wednesday, the president has to decide whether or not to do what he did in October, which was to sign a waiver, a presidential waiver, which said that PLO is not a terrorist organization. I, frankly, don't see how in light of the information, the very clear evidence that has been turned up in the last two weeks he can make that waiver. And that he's going to have to face by Wednesday.

BLITZER: All right. We'll see what he does on that front. Ambassador Paul Bremer and General Clark, as usual, thanks so much for joining us in this note.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com