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Several Thousand Homeless in Jenin; Interview of Edward Djerejian

Aired April 16, 2002 - 10:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: The Israeli assault on the Jenin refugee camp resulted in some of the bloodiest fighting in the West Bank. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says that Israeli forces will withdraw from Jenin and Nablus within a week. When journalists and aid workers were finally allowed into Jenin for the first time since the fighting -- do we have Rula Amin or Andrea Koppel? We have Rula Amin. OK. Rula Amin was among them, and she joins us from near the camp -- Rula, hello -- sorry for the confusion.

RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Daryn. We actually have been able to get inside the camp on our own without the Israeli soldiers. It's the first time we have been able to do so in about seven days.

When we got into the camp, we got help from the people inside the camp, who were very eager to get us inside. From inside their homes, from their windows, they were showing us the way. They were telling us where there were soldiers and were there were not, which path to take.

When we got inside, it was a scene of devastation. Many houses were knocked down. One neighborhood that we ran into, every house in that neighborhood was either bulldozed, knocked down or hit by a missile, very badly damaged. Most of those houses that we have seen are not good for being homes to any of the residents of that camp.

Now, the United Nations agencies have estimated that about 3,000 people of the Jenin refugee camp, about 20 percent of the population of that camp, is now homeless. As we were trying to find our way inside the camp, we also found residents from the camp, who had fled out or forced out of the camp and now have been trying to sneak in to check out the damage, to check out what happened to their homes and their houses.

Some of them had lost touch with some of their family members. Some parents, they came to look for them. We were told that still under the rubble, there are bodies buried there, have not been retrieved yet. We ourselves, when we went inside one house, a woman led us into her house, she told us, I want you to see what's inside. We went in. We found five decomposed bodies there, all black. The flies were flying around them, the smell very strong, a smell of death. Most of the people who were trying to get inside that house were just walking in the neighborhood and had to cover their faces so that to avoid that strong smell of death. Apart from that, the Israeli army is still in control of that camp. Aid workers have been allowed into today and yesterday. They were trying to assess the damage, trying to mobilize as much resources as possible in order to help the residents of that camp and retrieve some of those bodies.

Now, we saw them bringing some supplies. We are hearing from those aid workers that there is a shortage of milk, of food, of medical aid. Of course, that camp had been the scene of a fierce battle between the Israeli soldiers, who went into that camp, and the Palestinian fighters. The Palestinians are charging a massacre took place there. They are saying over 500 Palestinians had been killed, mostly civilians.

The Israeli army denies these charges vehemently. They say it is a lie, it's propaganda, that most of these people who have been killed were fighters, the number is not 500, it is dozens. And they are saying that some of them had been killed by their own explosives, by their own booby traps -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Well, clearly what we are looking at is a different perception here, Rula. I am sure, as we can see from the pictures, a number of homes have been destroyed. But the Israelis would point out that they believe there were gunmen and fighters holing out in those houses, and that's why they had to be attacked so fiercely.

AMIN: Well, yes, that's what the army says. The army says that they were actually targeting only the Palestinian gunmen. The eyewitnesses we spoke to were telling us that many of the casualties were civilians, people inside their homes.

Even Israeli newspapers have been bringing reports from Israeli soldiers, who went inside that camp, who are describing how the camp is a very, crowded area. The alleys are very narrow. For the tanks to be able to drive through that camp, they had to knock down houses in order to pave way for the tanks. Sometimes some of those houses were knocked down or actually some of the walls were hit by the tanks as the people were inside. They were asked to leave. Some of them did, some of them didn't.

Still, it's very, very hard to verify any of these accounts. We can only at this point report what both parties are telling us. The Palestinians are charging -- what they are charging actually amounts to war crimes. They are saying the fact that the Israeli army wouldn't allow ambulances in and that some of those who were killed were killed after they had surrendered, and the army is denying this vehemently. They are saying the Palestinians are trying to use what happened in the camp to make propaganda. That it is all false lies, exaggerations -- Daryn.

KAGAN: And the way this is going, neither side is convinced or will convince the other side of their stand. Rula Amin at the Jenin refugee camp -- thank you.

LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Just about 90 minutes ago, Secretary of State Colin Powell stepped behind some closed doors with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Even before this third round of peace talks, Mr. Powell reported that his diplomatic mission is -- quote -- "making progress."

Let's check in now with our State Department correspondent, Andrea Koppel. She has been traveling with the secretary. She joins us now from Jerusalem this morning -- this afternoon there -- hello, Andrea.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Leon. Well, that meeting is under way, as you said, between these two military men. It is taking place actually behind closed doors. Only the two of them, we are told, are in this meeting.

This follows a rather tough phone call, we are told, that President Bush had just last night with Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in which the U.S. president pushed the Israeli prime minister again to commit to a full and complete withdrawal from all West Bank towns and cities.

Really, Leon, at this point, we are beginning to see really the three key pieces to the diplomatic puzzle that Secretary Powell is trying to complete. The first piece has to do directly with the meeting that's taking place right now between Powell and Sharon. It has to do with this full Israeli withdrawal.

The sticking points are, as we learned last night from Wolf Blitzer's interview with the prime minister, that the Israelis have committed to withdraw within the next week from just about all of the West Bank towns and cities with the exception of Bethlehem and Ramallah. So Secretary Powell is trying to get a timetable from the prime minister to complete withdrawal from both Bethlehem and Ramallah and resolve those.

The second key piece to this puzzle is taking place today. The American negotiators are sitting down with Palestinian negotiators to work on a draft statement in which the Palestinians would condemn terrorism, they would renounce terrorism and they would also -- they are going to find of finesse the language on what a cease-fire, in fact, would be. And there are going to be some other points in there. So this is a statement that the Americans are trying to help the Palestinians put together to try to satisfy Israeli demands.

And then the third piece has to do with a meeting that will take place now tomorrow. Secretary Powell plans to leave Israel tomorrow. He will meet with the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, in the morning, and then he's going to go to Cairo. And when is he there, Leon, he is going to meet with the Egyptian president and foreign minister, and it is also our understanding that the Jordanian foreign minister will be there as well.

Now, earlier today, this is going to be actually the focus of that meeting, will be on this international Middle East conference, this peacemaking conference that we have heard talked about in recent days. And they're presumably going to try to firm up details.

Now, all of this, of course, is contingent on what happens over the next 24 hours, in the meeting today with Ariel Sharon and the one tomorrow with Yasser Arafat. But we did hear from Secretary Powell earlier today. In fact, he was asked by one reporter, "Do you think you can persuade the Palestinian leadership that they should begin talks prior to an Israeli withdrawal?" And here is what Secretary Powell had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are going to have good conversations of my staff and the Palestinian side today. And I look forward to seeing the chairman tomorrow morning. I think we are making progress and look forward to furthering that progress over the next 24 hours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: Just to give you an idea as to how quickly things change here, Leon. I just learned while we were listening to that sound byte that the meeting between Ariel Sharon and Secretary of State Powell has just ended. Now, it's our job to try find out what came out of that meeting -- Leon.

HARRIS: Real quickly, any word on whether a statement is going to be made after this meeting has now wrapped up?

KOPPEL: Well, when the meeting started, they told us there weren't going to be any statements. In fact, the two men didn't make statements before the meeting began during the photo opportunity. Secretary Powell said something like I'm looking forward to having a good meeting. But we are not expecting any public statement. But now, we will get on the phones and see if we can find out what happened.

HARRIS: All right. You do that. You go get on the phone. We are going to sit here and talk with someone else, and we'll get back to you. Or you call us immediately, Andrea, after you hear something -- appreciate that -- Andrea Koppel reporting live for us from Jerusalem.

Let's talk now some more about this meeting that just wrapped up, and the peace mission overall. Joining us from Washington now is Edward Djerejian, and he is a former U.S. ambassador to Syria. We welcome you back, sir -- good to have you with us this morning.

EDWARD DJEREJIAN, RICE UNIVERSITY: Good to see you, Leon.

HARRIS: What do you make of what you just heard Andrea Koppel here report? And do you interpret what we have seen and just heard so far as actual progress being made there by Secretary Powell?

DJEREJIAN: I think there are initial signs of progress being made, as secretary of state mentioned and in Andrea's report. Certainly the fact that Israeli Prime Minister Sharon has begun to outline a timetable of withdrawals of Israeli forces from the West Bank. Secondly, the declarative statements that are expected from Arafat and the Palestinian Authority against terrorism, which really would have to be not only words, but translated into deeds on the ground. And third, putting this political context into place. The reports of Sharon's idea of a regional conference is one aspect of it, but conceptually getting that political road map delineated. I think these are the three parts that constitute some progress on the ground.

HARRIS: All right. Let's talk a bit first of all about this statement that we know that Secretary Powell's aides have been working with the Palestinians on trying to put together their statement that Andrea Koppel is reporting on. Now, what do you think has got to be in this statement for this to be conceived as some sort of a successful accomplishment here? And then, if it is different, what do you expect to see in this statement?

DJEREJIAN: Well, I expect to see certainly an explicit reiteration of what Arafat said the other day in Arabic to his people, broadcast to all of the Arabic constituencies that the Palestinian Authority condemns, is opposed to, and I think (UNINTELLIGIBLE) able to do everything it can to prevent acts of terrorism. It has to come down very strong against suicide bombings, against civilian targets, against the Israelis.

HARRIS: And that's got to be put in writing.

DJEREJIAN: That is -- it has to be a sine qua non of what comes out of the Palestinian side.

HARRIS: How about the international conference here? For this to have the maximum -- I guess the maximum effect here, where does it have to be held?

DJEREJIAN: Well, Leon, it could be held anywhere. I think it is a question of at what level. If we have these two protagonists, we have, you know, Sharon on one side and Arafat on the other side, these two key protagonists, Sharon refusing to deal with Arafat, this conference or this meeting or this political gathering may have to take place at a level just beneath them, be it foreign ministers or whomever they so designate.

HARRIS: Would that diminish it though?

DJEREJIAN: But that would be a step forward if that occurs.

HARRIS: Why? Why would you say that?

DJEREJIAN: Well, because, Leon, they will start talking again. I mean, because what we are talking about here is putting in confidence building, getting a cease-fire on the ground, getting the necessary declarations on the Palestinian side against terrorism, getting the Israeli withdrawals and then moving to political context of discussions on the next steps in making peace between the two sides. And it's going to have to be toned down in how comprehensive the approach is, because of the situation on the ground. But it would be a start of political negotiations.

HARRIS: Let me ask you about Secretary Powell's movements yesterday. You know, he was in Lebanon and in Syria, and we know you are, of course, quite familiar with those two places. Let me ask you about your interpretations on whether or not any progress was made there, because if you go by the words that we have been hearing coming both from Hezbollah, and if you look at that press conference that we saw, it seems as though there really wasn't that much -- I don't want to use the word comedy -- but it seemed as though Secretary Powell had a pretty harsh time there. Is it clear whether or not he actually got his point across and whether there will be not another front open up on that northern border?

DJEREJIAN: Well, I certainly think that the secretary of state got his point across that we are looking to Syria and Lebanon to do everything within their power and their influence that both have to really prevent Hezbollah attacks against Israeli targets. And I think what's happening, and this is just my assessment, is that the approach by the secretary of state has probably had some effect in having both Syria and Lebanon weigh in on Hezbollah to stop attacks on Israeli targets and certainly across the border.

I'm not too sure whether Hezbollah has agreed to step down from attacking targets in the Shebaa Farms area, which is the area they contest that is still occupied by the Israelis. But there may have been some progress made on there. I hope there has been.

HARRIS: Edward Djerejian, thank you very much -- a former ambassador to Syria. We appreciate your time and your insights as always -- hope to have you back with us later on -- take care.

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