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American Morning

Interview with Dore Gold, Martin Indyk

Aired April 17, 2002 - 07:03   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: You have just heard the tail end of Colin Powell's news conference, where he described a little of the detail coming out of a two-hour meeting with Yasser Arafat, among other things, saying that a cease-fire will not happen until the Israelis withdraw from West Bank towns. Let's very closely go back -- or very carefully go back to Wolf Blitzer, who was listening along with me, as the secretary of state just spent a little over a half hour taking questions from reporters and making a formal wrap-up of his visit -- good morning, Wolf. What did you hear that really leapt out?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Paula, I heard that the secretary of state issued a pretty dramatic statement assessing where the U.S. and the Israelis and the Palestinians stand right now, but not a whole lot of tangible progress. First of all on the Israeli side, what did he achieve? What did he get from the Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon? He said he did get a commitment, a specific timetable for a complete withdrawal from those areas in the West Bank the Israeli military recently occupied.

That that would be resolved by the weekend, with a few days as the prime minister suggested in his interview with CNN earlier in the week as well, with the exception of two very important areas. Bethlehem, the Church of the Nativity, where the standoff continues with some 200 armed Palestinians inside, as well as the Yasser Arafat headquarters in Ramallah. The Israeli forces not withdrawing from those two areas until some wanted Palestinians inside those two areas are handed over, and the secretary acknowledging that's very, very difficult to work out that those areas, those matters, although he will continue to work on it.

The secretary also, I believe for the first time, using the words "destructive impact" when talking about Israeli settlements on the West Bank as well as the Israeli military occupation. Very strong words from the secretary of state condemning the Israeli continued military occupation, as well as the establishment, the activity of Jewish settlements in that area, words that presumably will anger Israeli officials. We'll get more Israeli reaction on that coming up.

As far as the Palestinian side is concerned, he said he has heard some words from Yasser Arafat, a statement issued over the weekend condemning terrorism, condemning the most recent suicide bombing here in Jerusalem. He said he anticipates there will be another statement coming forward probably later today or tomorrow, statements similar in tone. He did say that what is important, though, is to back up those words with deeds. He said the U.S. will now undertake some high-level security discussions with the Palestinian security forces.

He said that the U.S. CIA director, the Central Intelligence Agency Director George Tenet probably will be coming back here, as will General Anthony Zinni, to continue some of these security-related discussions to see if the Palestinians back up their promises of condemning terrorism, at the same time, living up with actions. Let's listen to what the secretary of state said at that news conference, when he was trying to sum up precisely what he managed to achieve.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Confronting and ending terrorism are indispensable steps on the road to peace. In my meeting with Chairman Arafat, I made it clear that he and the Palestinian Authority can no longer equivocate. They must decide, as the rest of the world has decided, that terrorism must end. Chairman Arafat must take that message to his people. He must follow through with instructions to his security forces. They must act to arrest and prosecute terrorists, disrupt terrorist financing, dismantle terrorist infrastructure and stop incitement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Now, the secretary spoke after spending two hours with Yasser Arafat earlier today in Ramallah. At the end of that meeting, the PLO chairman, the Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat emerged very angry, clearly furious at the continued Israeli military operation under way in the West Bank. Let's listen to what Mr. Arafat had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YASSER ARAFAT, PALESTINIAN LEADER: I have to ask the whole international world, I have to ask President Bush, I have to ask the United Nations, is this acceptable that I can't go outside?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Clearly, Yasser Arafat very angry, very concerned that he is holed up in that compound. He can't leave. His aides having a lot of trouble, of course, even getting into that compound to meet with him. At the start of the meeting, both sides took their seats, of course, across a table, and it was a very, very tense meeting. Clearly, U.S. officials want to see the Palestinians back up their statements promising to denounce, renounce terrorism with actual words. One additional note, Paula, the secretary of state is heading off to Cairo. He'll meet with the foreign ministers of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, before coming back to Washington later today. He did, though, leave open the possibility that he would -- would return to this area if that was useful. He said he wants to discuss with President Bush this notion of a regional peace conference as well -- Paula.

ZAHN: Wolf, I also thank it's worth noting that the secretary of state urged the Israelis to sort of lessen their restrictions on Arafat, so he has better ability to communicate with his people and his administration officials. I'm just curious what you think the Israeli reaction will be to that when the Israelis have made it so abundantly clear they believe there are four, at least four major terrorists still holed up in Arafat's compound.

BLITZER: Well, that's a good question, Paula. And we happen to have with us here at our location Dore Gold. He is the former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, now a top foreign policy adviser to the Israel Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Let's ask him. Dore Gold, first of all, will the Israeli government, your government allow greater access for individuals to get into Yasser Arafat's compound? Will you allow him to have greater access to the outside world?

DORE GOLD, SENIOR SHARON ADVISER: Well, obviously Israel provided some of that access during Secretary Powell's visit. But clearly, the main problem emerging from this negotiation, from this attempt to bring about some kind of diplomatic breakthrough is that Yasser Arafat refused General Zinni's last compromise document, and he refused to provide with Secretary Powell with a meaningful cease-fire. Therefore, we have an impasse. We are trying to break that impasse and by unilaterally pulling back our forces according to a timeline. That's something that Israel tangibly gave to Secretary Powell.

BLITZER: But at the same time, how can you expect the Palestinians to accept a cease-fire, when the military operation is not yet complete?

GOLD: Well, you know, there is a sequence that works in the Middle East. When we had past Arab-Israeli wars in 1973 with Egypt and with Syria, first we reached a cease-fire agreement. Then we began to pull back our forces. Now, this is not just a question of a test of wills, this is a question of human lives, because as long as Israeli troops have been deployed in and around Palestinian cities, we have not had terrorist attacks. The only two attacks that we experience in Haifa and in Jerusalem were either from cities that we withdrew from, like Tulkarem, or from areas that we hadn't fully entered, like in the Palestinian-controlled parts of Hebron. And therefore, pulling back precipitously is a risk to the Israel population.

BLITZER: You know U.S.-Israeli relations very well. You served at the United Nations. Have you ever heard a U.S. secretary of state denounce Jewish settlements on the West Bank and the Israeli military occupation as having a destructive impact on the peace process?

GOLD: Well, we understand the American position. We follow it very closely. But at the same time, we have a mechanism for dealing with our disagreements with the Palestinians, and to some extent with the United States. There is the Mitchell sequence, which means that after we have a meaningful cease-fire and a cooling-off period, we will address the issue of settlement activity over which we have disagreements. Secretary Powell also referred to the fact that settlements are a final status issue, which will be raised in negotiations with the Palestinians. So while the rhetoric might have been a little frosty, the actual mechanism provided is something which we have agreed to in the past. BLITZER: You clearly seemed very irritated, as you well know, that the Israeli prime minister, Mr. Sharon, defied President Bush. President Bush, a couple of weeks ago, said get out, remove that withdrawal, end that withdrawal without delay, meaning now, he said. He was very firm on that. That military operation, as you well know, still continues.

GOLD: Well, again, going back to what the president said, he said Israel should begin to withdraw without delay. And therefore, Prime Minister Sharon decided that Israel would begin to withdraw from two major Palestinian cities, Tulkarem and Qalqilya. And in fact, the attack in Yagore (ph) Junction in Haifa came from the city of Tulkarem. So we are taking risks to make sure that Secretary Powell's visit succeeds. Unfortunately, Yasser Arafat has totally failed to agree either to the last compromise formula provided by General Zinni in his last negotiations here, or to a meaningful cease-fire. Cease- fire is the way to go to negotiations. You can't have negotiations and combat and having Israelis fired up or bombed at the same time.

BLITZER: So is Secretary of State Colin Powell leaving Jerusalem empty-handed, with nothing to show for his 10 days in this part of the world?

GOLD: Absolutely not. I think one of the most important areas where Secretary Powell has made a great accomplishment is in the north, because it is in the north in the area of Lebanon and Syria where we had a serious danger of regional escalation. And Secretary Powell was active in Lebanon. He was active in Syria. And it seems that the intensity of the threat from Hezbollah has diminished, and therefore, I think he has a great accomplishment that he leaves with.

BLITZER: But as far as the Israeli-Palestinian front, he was irritated obviously with the Israelis, irritated with the Palestinians, very upset about what may have happened in Jenin at the Palestinian refugee camp, deeply concerned about what's happening in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, certainly doesn't seem to have a whole lot of movement easing the siege around Yasser Arafat's headquarters. What does he have to show on the Israeli-Palestinian front?

GOLD: What Secretary Powell goes away with that's tangible is an Israeli timeline to withdraw its forces from Palestinian cities and bring the current operation to a close. That's a clear, tangible accomplishment. Unfortunately, Yasser Arafat has not reciprocated, has not offered a meaningful cease-fire, and certainly hasn't agreed to General Zinni's last compromise formula for a cease-fire. And therefore, unfortunately, the cup is half empty, and it's half empty because of Palestinian refusal.

BLITZER: All right. Dore Gold, the former Israeli ambassador the United Nations, a top foreign policy adviser to the prime minister, Ariel Sharon -- thanks so much for joining us. So there you have it, Paula, it doesn't look, at least on the Israeli-Palestinian side, a whole lot of progress. The secretary of state holding out hope that he might have to return to this part of the world in the not too distant future himself, although he says he wants to discuss that with President Bush, although there has been a calming situation along Israel's northern borders with Lebanon and Syria -- Paula.

ZAHN: All right. Wolf Blitzer, thanks so much. Dore Gold, appreciate your insights as well. Let's quickly turn to Martin Indyk, who is standing by in Washington, D.C. He is the former U.S. ambassador to Israel -- good morning -- thanks so much for joining us again, sir.

MARTIN INDYK, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: Good morning, Paula -- my pleasure.

ZAHN: I wanted to go back to a point we just heard Dore Gold make in his interview with Wolf Blitzer, where he clearly said a cease-fire is the way to go. And then he would push for the full implementation of the Mitchell accord. Let's quickly review what Secretary of State Powell had to say on that very point earlier this morning at his news conference.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Only with the end of the incursion, and with the engagement in security talks, can a cease-fire be achieved in reality as well as rhetoric.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: All right. Secretary of State Powell also said he had gotten assurances from the Israeli government that the withdrawals will be complete in a day or two from now. Is that good enough as far as you are concerned?

INDYK: Well, there are a few drops in the cup, Paula. It's not entirely empty. He does have a timetable from the Israelis for pulling out of these major cities. He does have a statement from Yasser Arafat for what that's worth. And as Wolf pointed out at the end there, he has an important achievement in terms of preventing a wider conflict by calming the situation down on the northern border. But that's pretty thin gruel all around, and I think he leaves the Palestinians in a very angry situation, which will send a signal to the Arab world that they are not satisfied. And so it's not going to calm things down there very much either.

I think perhaps the most important thing I would say, Paula, is that you cannot expect -- Secretary Powell and President Bush cannot expect after 15 months of essential disengagement that they can suddenly waltz into a very hot situation and wave a magic wand or the presidential finger and get some kind of agreement out of that. The most important thing here for the secretary and the president is to remain engaged. If at first you don't succeed in this situation, they are going to have to try and try again and expect that eventually, because the parties really have no other alternative but to find a way out of this crisis that we will succeed.

ZAHN: And, Martin, I know that in a particularly testy part of the news conference the secretary of state was asked about Mr. Sharon's comments that it was a great mistake to have met with Yasser Arafat, and Mr. Powell said I felt it was important to see Arafat, because he is the Palestinian's recognized leader, whether one disapproves of it or not. It's a reality. I could not have come home here without talking to Arafat. And right now, for the part of our audience that didn't get to see Mr. Arafat's reaction to the end of Mr. Powell's mission, this is what he had to say about his ability to communicate anything to his people -- let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YASSER ARAFAT, PALESTINIAN LEADER: I have to ask the whole international world, I have to ask President Bush, I have to ask the United Nations, is this acceptable that I can't go outside from this door?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: All right. We also know that in that same news conference, Secretary Powell urged Israel to ease its restrictions on Yasser Arafat. Your reaction to that.

INDYK: Well, it really emphasizes the heart of the problem here is that the Israelis have given up on Yasser Arafat. They don't treat him as a partner anymore, as the prime minister said, he is the enemy.

The United States doesn't see an alternative to Yasser Arafat, at least for the time being. And if we are going to mediate and try to get some solution, we've got to have two parties to this. So it's the heart of the problem, Paula, in terms of trying to negotiate something here is that tension between the Israeli attitude that Yasser Arafat is yesterday's man as far as they are concerned, and I believe that we haven't got anybody else to work with.

So I think it is best expressed by the way in which Yasser Arafat is bottled up in that compound. We think he should be able to come out and express his appeal to the Palestinians to stop the fighting. The Israelis don't expect that those kinds of words are going to make any difference anymore. So in this kind of circumstance, we have got to keep on trying, but it creates a situation in which we look like we are resuscitating Yasser Arafat, and he of course looks pretty much to the average American much like the Israelis see him, as a terrorist.

ZAHN: And you talk about the perception that the U.S. resuscitating Yasser Arafat. I think we need to call attention to President Bush yesterday waiving a six-month law that forbids U.S. aid from going into the Palestinian Liberation Authority. Now, this of course is an action that other presidents have taken as well. But if the president is not prepared to stop funding the PLO, does that say to you that we are, in fact, the United States government rewarding Arafat for terrorism?

INDYK: Well, that's certainly the way it's going to look. On the other hand, if we cut off funding that goes to projects that the United States controls for the benefit of the Palestinian people, not for the benefit of the Palestinian Authority and Yasser Arafat, then we are in a sense making the plight of the Palestinians worse. So it's a real difficult dilemma. As long as the administration has not given up on Yasser Arafat, it doesn't make sense to cut that last tie. As long as the secretary thinks that he can get something useful out of Yasser Arafat, then I think that the administration is going to maintain that connection and maintain the assistance. But there are conditions that have been put on this, conditions relating to the need for Yasser Arafat to fulfill the statement that he has made and stop the terrorism, and so the administration will be watching how that goes.

I would say, Paula, the way to understand this is that the president is one decision away from cutting relations and cutting Yasser Arafat adrift. And Ariel Sharon is one decision away from kicking Yasser Arafat out of the Palestinian territories. It's very likely that suicide bombers are going to try their best to continue their operations, and in that situation, we may well find that both Ariel Sharon and George Bush just throw up their hands and say there's nothing more we can do with Yasser Arafat.

At that point, we are going to have an even bigger problem on our hands, and that's where the sleeper issue that Secretary Powell has introduced here of the international conference with Arab states present is going to be, I think, our lifeline. We are going to have to -- the president is going to have to be prepared for the very summitry that he has sought to avoid for so long to in a way create a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to come in when the situation explodes, as I fear it will, and try to find a way to impose a kind of trusteeship on the Palestinian territories and go from there to the implementation of his vision of a two-state solution.

ZAHN: All right. Martin Indyk, as always, thank you for your insights. We were delighted you were able to listen to the whole news conference so you could give us that very thorough perspective -- thank you again for your time.

INDYK: My pleasure.

ZAHN: Appreciate it.

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