CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Interviews With Harland Braun, Cary Goldstein, Margerry Bakley
Aired April 19, 2002 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, did he do it? Actor Robert Blake under arrest for murdering his wife, Bonny Lee Bakley.
Joining us, Robert Blake's defense attorney Harland Braun. What does Bonny Lee's family think? We'll hear from her sister Margerry and the attorney for the Bakley family, Cary Goldstein. Plus, actor Gary Busey, Blake's friend and acting colleague. And with him, another Blake friend and sometime publicist Dale Olson.
Then, world-renowned forensic expert Dr. Henry Lee, former LAPD police detective Mark Fuhrman. And the author of "Murder in Hollywood," a true crime book about the Blake case, Gary King.
Plus, a legal square-off between defense attorney Mark Geragos and former prosecutor turned Court TV anchor Nancy Grace. All next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Good evening. We follow up on last night's program dealing with the arrest of Robert Blake. Arraignment will be Monday in Van Nuys. His bodyguard Earle Caldwell also arrested. His attorney is Harland Braun. Do you represent Mr. Caldwell, too?
HARLAND BRAUN, ROBERT BLAKE'S ATTORNEY: No, I don't. He has a separate lawyer.
L. KING: Is he going to be arraigned Monday, too?
L. KING: Also in Van Nuys?
BRAUN: That's correct.
L. KING: Will this case be tried together?
BRAUN: Probably, depending on how it's filed, but I imagine it would be tried together. Remember, it's never been filed. There is no case at this point. There's been arrests, but the district attorney has not made a decision whether to file the case or not. That's going to be done Monday.
L. KING: I don't understand that. Obviously he's going to file a case, right?
BRAUN: No, not necessarily.
L. KING: You mean there may be no case filed?
BRAUN: Well, the police department sort of jumped the gun. They normally in a case like this they would get an arrest warrant issued by a judge with the DA's concurrence. In this case, they arrested Mr. Blake, are continuing the investigation today with search warrants, and they are going to present the case to the DA on Monday. It puts a lot of pressure on the DA, but it's conceivable the DA could say that we don't have enough evidence.
L. KING: Is that unusual?
BRAUN: It would be unusual, but this is an unusual case.
L. KING: Wouldn't you think the police would have told the DA they're doing this?
BRAUN: Unless they were -- if I were the DA, I would not be happy to be given an hour and a half to decide what to file on Mr. Blake.
L. KING: You think they're putting pressure on him? Do you think the police want to arrest him and the DA is not sure?
BRAUN: I think that may be the case. I just have no way of knowing.
L. KING: Now, as I understand it, he has been moved to a hospital ward in the men's jail?
BRAUN: That's correct.
L. KING: Why?
BRAUN: Just for isolation purposes. He's not ill. He's got high blood pressure and is on some medications, but it's not because he's ill.
L. KING: OK. Now, on Monday, the district attorney has to charge him, or what?
BRAUN: Or he is released, because he's got to be arraigned within two court days. So the DA either charges him or he walks out of court.
L. KING: So who scheduled the arraignment, the police?
BRAUN: Well, it's done automatically. When you are taken into custody, it's done automatically within a certain number of days.
L. KING: Logically, Harland, you would expect the DA to go along with this, wouldn't you?
BRAUN: Statistically, I would, yes. But it's conceivable the DA may not agree with the police or their investigation at this point. L. KING: So at this moment, he is what?
BRAUN: He's arrested by the police on probable cause. No judge has made a determination that he should have been arrested. The DA has not filed charges against him. There is no case pending. He's just under arrest for suspicion.
L. KING: Kind of limbo.
BRAUN: In limbo.
L. KING: You can't get a bond hearing quickly?
BRAUN: We could, but we didn't really want to do it earlier. No bail but bail at the situation. We don't have the evidence. Obviously, there's no discovery. So Mr. Blake said, just wait. He's willing to sit it out.
L. KING: You don't know what the case is?
BRAUN: I know what our investigation shows. I know that Chief Parks says that he's the shooter, that he actually shot, physically, Bonny Bakley.
L. KING: The bodyguard was in San Francisco, correct?
BRAUN: That's right.
L. KING: He couldn't have been the shooter, that they know.
BRAUN: That's right. That's right. So it's hard to figure out what their case is about. We'll know on Monday.
L. KING: They did site today contempt as the reason for this crime, that was the motive, that Bakley was just, according to the police, Bakley was to the accused, Mr. Blake, contemptible?
BRAUN: You know, I've never said there's not a motive in this case. What Bonny did to his life was horrific. Basically, she turned his life upside down, got him involved in a marriage he did not want to be involved in because he loved Rosie. So motive has never really been an issue. There are a lot of people who have a motive to kill Bonny Bakley, and I would not say that Robert Blake did not have a motive.
L. KING: Rosie the child.
BRAUN: That's the most important thing in this case.
L. KING: Do you think you were informed late on this? Because when we talked to you earlier in the day yesterday, you had no knowledge of this.
BRAUN: No, what they did was I think appropriate. They called me just before they were going to arrest Mr. Blake.
L. KING: That's OK then to you?
BRAUN: Well, because of O.J., you know, that we had that long chase. So I think they prevented any kind of confrontation by calling me and they prevented any kind of anything going wrong.
L. KING: Well, you asked us last night, you were pulling into Parker Center and we had that 20-minute conversation. That was quite interesting television, Harland. What was the first thing Robert Blake said to you?
BRAUN: He said, don't worry about me. I said, I'm your lawyer, I'm worried about you. He said the only thing I'm worried about are my children. He said I've had 70 years on this earth. I have lived 140 years. I want Deli and Noah not to be defined by this. And I fear that Rosie will ever fall into the hands of the Bakleys. He says I want her raised in a moral environment.
L. KING: Deli and Noah are grown, right?
L. KING: And where is Rosie now?
BRAUN: Rosie is with Deli, the grown daughter, who is taking care of her.
L. KING: And that house that he was arrested at, is that his sister's house?
BRAUN: No, that's his house and Deli's house.
L. KING: And that's where they're living?
BRAUN: That's right.
L. KING: With the child.
L. KING: Can they visit him tomorrow?
BRAUN: They can, but we've sort of -- he'd rather not have them visit. It's such a horrific emotional thing. So he'd rather not have them visit tomorrow. So they'll wait until next week.
L. KING: Give me the scenario for Monday morning.
BRAUN: Monday morning he'll be...
L. KING: He'll be brought from Parker Center to Van Nuys.
BRAUN: To Van Nuys. And there, the district attorney will either not file a complaint and the charges will then lapse, or they'll file a complaint and they'll set bail or not set bail, and they'll set a date for a preliminary hearing.
L. KING: I see. And will there be a decision on bail right there? If they file, will you then plead to a magistrate for bail?
BRAUN: Not probably, because at that point, I won't have any information about the DA's case. And if they at least give me a few days to study the DA's case, we can make a more intelligent...
L. KING: But wouldn't you want bail right away so your client can go home?
BRAUN: Well, I'd like it. But speaking realistic, and Robert's realistic, let's find out what all the facts are. And if they set $1 million bail or something like that, he would post it, but they will probably for tactical reasons try a no bail, because you'd much rather prosecute someone who can't be out there and talk to his lawyers.
L. KING: Will Earle Caldwell also get no bail, since he was not charged with actually killing -- is not going to be charged with killing?
BRAUN: We really don't know. He has a bail set. I think it's $1 million right now. So I don't even know that they're going to file a case on Earle Caldwell. They're desperately trying to get Earle Caldwell to turn on Robert Blake.
L. KING: Do you think they're using Earle Cadlwell, they're threatening Earle Caldwell by arresting him, charging him, getting him to turn?
BRAUN: Right. That's what they're doing. They told him last night that if he would cooperate, he could go home and sleep in his own bed. And Mr. Caldwell says, you know, I've been talking to you for 11 months. I have nothing...
L. KING: How do you know that?
BRAUN: I'm talking to his lawyer. And so he's basically been cooperative for 11 months. Why they think he would...
L. KING: So they asked Earle Caldwell if he would turn evidence after they arrested him and that he could then go home?
BRAUN: Go home. He can go home and sleep in his own bed. And Earle has no evidence against Robert Blake.
L. KING: Well, at this point, if they've arrested him and then asked him to turn, what evidence do you gather they have? They've announced something about finding something.
BRAUN: They keep talking about what they found, but they've done three search warrants today. Robert's house, Earle's house and one other house. And so they're bringing a lot of evidence in. And how could they be analyzing this before Monday? So they seem to be desperate to put a case together even after they've arrested Robert.
L. KING: Do you fear the death penalty? I mean, do you fear they're going to go for the death penalty? BRAUN: No, I talked to Robert about that. Robert said, I'm 70 years old. He said, I've lived my whole life. The death penalty doesn't scare me. He said, I'm innocent, I want to be vindicated, but if something goes wrong, you know, I'm at peace with myself.
L. KING: It's none of our business, but did you ask your client if he did it?
BRAUN: Of course, I asked the client.
L. KING: Some attorneys don't.
BRAUN: No, I asked him. And I spent 11 months with Robert. And I've seen nothing that would indicate that he committed the murder. You know, I'm not naive, so I'm going to look at what evidence the DA has and see what evidence is there.
L. KING: But you believe him?
BRAUN: I believe him.
L. KING: Thanks, Harland.
Harland Braun, the attorney for Robert Blake. Curioser and curioser.
When we come back, we'll have Margerry Bakley on the phone, that's Bonny Lee's sister. And we'll meet Cary Goldstein; he's the Bakley family attorney. Don't go away. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPTAIN TATREAU, LAPD: We believe the motive is that Robert Blake had contempt for Bonny Bakley. He was in a -- he felt that he was trapped in a marriage that he wanted no part of, and quite frankly, the entire situation was not one of his liking at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. The Rock scheduled to be the guest tonight. That will air tomorrow night.
With us by phone is Margerry Bakley. Margerry is the sister of the late Bonny Lee Bakley. And here in our studios in L.A. is Cary Goldstein. Cary is the Bakley family attorney and he was Bonny Lee Bakley's attorney as well. When, Cary, did you know this arrest was coming down?
CARY GOLDSTEIN, BAKLEY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, I knew basically when everybody else did, but the rumors were flying early in the day. We were getting calls that he was arrested but no one could confirm it.
L. KING: What did you make of Harland's statement, that the DA hasn't signed off on this yet?
GOLDSTEIN: Harland Braun, the king of spin. The concept that the police have put so much time, effort and manpower into this case, went and made the bust with the DA working with them for months and months and months on this, and now the DA is not going to file charges? That's an absurdity and Harland knows it. Harland also told us there will never be an arrest in this case, if you remember.
L. KING: Margerry, how do you feel now about this arrest?
MARGERRY BAKLEY, BONNY LEE BAKLEY'S SISTER: Well, I'm pleased with the LAPD and I'm relieved that he's been arrested. I'm not happy, though. I'm saddened for everybody involved in this case. Everybody loses, you know, Delinah and Noah, they've lost their father. I've lost my sister. And the kids have lost their mother. It's just a terrible situation.
L. KING: What did you make, Cary, of Harland's statement that Earle Caldwell, even while being arrested, was being asked to turn it around and testify against him and you can go home?
GOLDSTEIN: Well, I think that's a real possibility.
L. KING: That they will get him to turn?
GOLDSTEIN: You know, yes, I think so because if Earle in fact wasn't at the scene, and I think he has a lot to offer to support the case. I don't thing they necessarily need him if he's going to make a conviction stick.
L. KING: Then you're not worried if he doesn't choose to testify for the state?
GOLDSTEIN: No. I have a feeling that they've got their stuff together. They're just not going to risk another O.J.
L. KING: When did you think, Margerry, that your brother-in-law did this?
BAKLEY: Well, I believed it the moment I heard it. And I knew he was contemplating killing her for a long time before May 4.
L. KING: Had she told you that?
BAKLEY: She told me that. I listened to their conversations. I listened to my sister over and over again. They were in a bad situation. He wouldn't be the first husband to turn on his wife.
L. KING: Shortly after Bonny Lee Bakley's murder in May of last year, Robert Blake's attorney gave police what they said were tapes Bonny Lee had made of her own telephone conversations. CNN was told these tapes were found by investigators working for Blake. They were discovered in the small guest house on Blake's property where Bonny Lee lived during the marriage. After turning the tapes over to the LAPD, Blake's attorneys allowed CNN to copy the recordings. Here's an excerpt. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONNY LEE BAKLEY, ROBERT BLAKE'S WIFE: The kid that everybody hated in school because I was like poor and couldn't dress good and, you know, and everybody always made fun of me because I was a real loner type.
So then you grow up saying, oh, I'll fix them, I'll show them. I'll be a movie star, you know. And it was too hard because I was always falling for somebody. So I figured, well, why not fall for movie stars instead of becoming one, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: Cary, how do you respond to hearing that?
GOLDSTEIN: Well, sure, half of the American women want to marry a celebrity. Bonny was no different.
L. KING: But it didn't make it look like there was some motive behind her attachment?
GOLDSTEIN: Behind her attachment, sure. But, you know, there's nothing that Bonny ever did in her lifetime that justifies her having been murdered. Any of the alleged crimes she was involved in were petty. And that's what you heard from the P.D. yesterday.
L. KING: But they do say that it lends you to think that there are other possible killers other than her husband. There would be other people with reason not to like her.
GOLDSTEIN: Well, sure, plenty of people with reason not to like her. But what did she do? She manipulated them out of bus fare or something like that, sold them some photographs maybe, nothing that would ever motivate someone to have to search her out, because she led an anonymous life through the Internet and mailboxes around the country. No one's going to bother searching around to kill her for the type of things that she supposedly did to them.
L. KING: To your knowledge, Cary, was there ever another suspect?
GOLDSTEIN: I wouldn't know, but I think if there were another suspect, we would have seen that suspect come out.
L. KING: Harland says he doesn't have a scenario, that they don't know the particulars. Do you? Do you know what they say happened, what Earle Caldwell had to do with it, where the gun is? Do you know any of that?
GOLDSTEIN: The only thing I do know is that we have been telling the police, Marge in particular told the police, about a botched attempt that Bonny had told us about, when Caldwell, Blake and Bonny were out in the desert camping.
L. KING: Trying to kill her, you mean? GOLDSTEIN: Well, Bonny was certain she was about to be killed and something went wrong along the way and they didn't do it. And that's when I think she really put us on notice.
L. KING: Margerry, what do you think Earle's involvement was?
M. BAKLEY: Well, I just believe that -- I believe the man knew all along that Mr. Blake didn't want to be with her. He was looking to obtain the baby permanently without her. I think the man was beyond loyal and would have done anything and everything, and I believe he did, for Robert Blake.
L. KING: So you don't expect him, Margerry, to turn and testify for the state?
M. BAKLEY: I think he's going to be loyal, loyal, loyal until he realizes he's alone in this and he's got to sit his life in jail alone. He's not going to be sitting with Robert Blake.
L. KING: Now, Cary, you're the attorney for the family...
L. KING: ... who can't get anything out of this but the feeling that justice is done. The dead person can't get anything. So what do you get? Are you going to be in court every day?
GOLDSTEIN: Well, there's going to be a civil action filed on behalf of the surviving children.
L. KING: Against the estate?
GOLDSTEIN: Against Robert Blake.
L. KING: Whatever Blake's estate is.
GOLDSTEIN: Yes. Against Robert Blake.
L. KING: There would definitely be a civil lawsuit?
GOLDSTEIN: I think it is safe to say definitely at this point.
L. KING: Margerry, are you going to be at the trial if there is one?
M. BAKLEY: Yes, sir, I will be.
L. KING: Are you going to be there too, Cary?
GOLDSTEIN: Oh, sure. We'll be watching closely, a lot of information to gather.
L. KING: Are you concerned about anything here, since it took so long for this arrest? GOLDSTEIN: No. I think that's a great sign that it took so long for the arrest to come down. That means they're being superthorough. Larry, there are political careers weighing in the balance. Heads would roll if they botched this one. The P.D. is looking for vengeance on the O.J. trial. The district attorney knows they can't risk a botched prosecution. I think that they're going to be extremely thorough. I mean, the way Parks came out there and said, we have solved the Bakley murder case, very strong statement.
L. KING: Do you care if it's a death penalty trial or not?
GOLDSTEIN: That's a personal choice. You know, first, let's see if the man's guilty. Let a jury decide.
L. KING: Do you care about bail?
GOLDSTEIN: In a case like this, there probably ought not be bail.
L. KING: Margerry, what about the little girl, the daughter or the product of this union which is currently with Robert's children? What do you think should happen with her?
M. BAKLEY: Well, I believe she's safe and I believe she's happy where she's at. I would like to know personally my niece and establish a relationship with her. I have no intentions of snatching that child from the only home and the only people that she knows and loves. I just am concerned with letting her bond with her maternal side of the family.
L. KING: Thank you so much, Margerry. And, Cary, we'll see you again Monday. Cary Goldstein, the attorney for the Bakley family and for the deceased. And Margerry Bakley, the sister of Bonny Lee Bakley.
When we come back, the famed actor Gary Busey and Dale Olson, the publicist, and they're going to present their side of the story as they look at their friend, Robert Blake. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF BERNARD PARKS, LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT: No other case in the department's history has required such extensive travel. Detectives also followed up on over 150 clues provided by the community. All other possible suspects were investigated and have been eliminated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: Did you talk to him about the incident? Did you talk to him about the gun or going back to the restaurant? Did you talk to him about that night? NOAH BLAKE, ROBERT BLAKE'S SON: Not much. You know, really, I was just trying to console him and comfort him. He said, you know, that he forgot his gun and he went back there. And that he came back and he was so shaky and so shaken up about it that he was -- he said, you know, when I saw her and, you know, I just got terrified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: That was a tape of Noah's appearance, his son, Robert Blake's son on this program in May of last year. We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Gary Busey, friend and acting colleague of Robert Blake. And if I can throw in a personal note, one of my favorite actors, one of the great talents. And Dale Olson, a friend of and sometimes publicist for Robert Blake.
Gary, how did you hear about the arrest?
GARY BUSEY, ACTOR: I heard it on the news.
L. KING: Were you shocked?
BUSEY: Yeah, I was.
L. KING: Dale, how did you hear?
DALE OLSON, FRIEND OF ROBERT BLAKE: I also heard it on the news. And I was shocked and I'm in denial, because I really don't want to believe it.
L. KING: Don't want to. Naturally nobody knows what happened.
L. KING: Have you spoken to Robert?
BUSEY: No, I haven't. I haven't spoken to him. But I feel like it happened so fast that it seems like that when Chief Parks and the police department have already convicted him and tried him and got him into execution.
L. KING: Have you talked to him in the last year?
BUSEY: No, I have not.
L. KING: Why haven't you called your friend?
BUSEY: Because I don't have his number.
L. KING: Have you tried to reach him?
BUSEY: No, I've reached him through Harland Braun.
L. KING: I see. So you connect to him through his attorney.
L. KING: Dale, have you spoken to him?
OLSON: Yes, Robert has called me a couple of times and given me his telephone number -- except that when I've called him back, the telephone number has been changed. But he has called just to say hello. We're very good friends. And I'm happy about that, because I wanted to tell him that I was supporting him.
L. KING: Have you worked with him, Gary?
BUSEY: Yeah. I did a "Baretta" with him in the early '70s, with Strother Martin and Mackenzie Phillips. And then we did a film, David Lynch's film, "Lost Highway."
L. KING: With your knowledge of him, are you saying that you can't conceive of him doing something like this?
BUSEY: No. No, I can't.
L. KING: Because?
BUSEY: Because I know his heart. And we both went through recovery together.
L. KING: Alcoholic recovery?
BUSEY: Alcoholic, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) recovery, and also the spirit. We felt the spirit and know about that power. And we've shared those comments together many times. When I found out that I was on the top of the list to be abducted by Bonny Bakley, where it said young and rich, find Gary Busey's phone number, call his mother Virginia in Tulsa, Oklahoma -- and I went, wait a minute, what's going on there.
L. KING: Yeah, you were on her list, apparently?
BUSEY: I was on the top of the list.
L. KING: Dale, as you know him, are you saying it's incomprehensible to you? Because he played tough guy, didn't he?
OLSON: Robert Blake is a superb actor. That's a persona that he created for himself. The Robert Blake that I know could never have done this. The Robert Blake I know is gentle, sensitive, a humane human being, has more integrity than most of the people I've met in this business.
If he was living in an untenable situation and something snapped, I don't know about that. But this is not the Robert Blake I know.
L. KING: Do you think Harland made a mistake in apparently, as some have said, trashing the deceased?
BUSEY: Trashing the deceased?
L. KING: You know, making comments negative about her.
BUSEY: I don't think it's good to trash the deceased. That usually comes out of desperation and hurt and anger.
L. KING: But your side -- I mean, the Blake side did do things like that, did they not?
BUSEY: Did they not?
L. KING: Cast aspersions on her?
BUSEY: About being immoral grifters?
L. KING: Yeah.
BUSEY: Yeah, well, that seems to be the record. That seems to be...
L. KING: So you're saying rather than cast aspersions, they were just revealing the record.
BUSEY: Revealing the record, and they probably did it on a high emotional level.
L. KING: Dale?
OLSON: Well, I think Gary's absolutely right. Robert knew all of this going in. I mean, when I first met -- she corrected me instead of saying Bonny Lee, she said Lee Bonny was her name. But when I first met her, he explained her background to me, and I said, why are you doing this? And he said, I'm doing it because this is my flesh and blood, this is my baby.
And he raised two absolutely fabulous children, with Noah and Delinah, and was a great father, and he really believed in this child. And that's why he wanted to do this.
BUSEY: One thing about Robert's fatherhood abilities, they are great. Because I remember when Noah was born and it was like a gift from heaven, the way Bobby talked about Noah to me. And he is there in his heart to be a father.
L. KING: How did you feel when you saw your name was on her list? I mean, how did you feel?
BUSEY: How did I feel?
L. KING: Weird?
BUSEY: No, not weird. Not weird. I felt surprised and shocked. But then again, I wasn't surprised when I thought about it, because I met Bonny years ago (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with Robert.
L. KING: You did?
BUSEY: Yeah. She was scouting me out with her eyes.
L. KING: While married to him or before they were married?
BUSEY: I don't know if it was before or after, but there was a look of investigation.
L. KING: Did you mention that to Robert?
BUSEY: No. As I said, like you, I call him and his number's changed. He's like living on the pony express.
L. KING: Why is he doing that, Dale, by the way? Being bothered by people?
OLSON: I think he's being bothered by a lot of people. He was very visible where he was, where he lived. And I think too many people did call him, and I think a lot of crackpots called him. And I think he just was forced to change his number.
BUSEY: Yes, that comes with the dinner in this business.
OLSON: This business, you're right.
L. KING: He's up against it, Gary, are you very worried about your friend?
BUSEY: No, I'm not worried. I have faith and confidence in the right way will persevere.
L. KING: Right will prevail.
BUSEY: Right will prevail. And I know that -- I know he's very strong in his relationship with himself. And also the truth of what he knows in his heart as well as what God knows.
L. KING: You're confident?
OLSON: I really am quite confident. I think as a matter of fact what has happened, I think, this happened very strangely and before there really is anything that we know about, but I really feel that Robert believes in himself and I think he'll be OK.
L. KING: Thank you both very much. Gary Busey and Dale Olson.
And in a moment when we come back, we'll be meeting three experts on this matter. Here's a scene from, obviously, Robert Blake's most renowned role as one of the killers of "In Cold Blood." Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "IN COLD BLOOD")
BLAKE: Hot shot prison buddy Floyd Wells. Big fat safe in the wall; $10,000, a cinch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Floyd's a jerk. But we scored, didn't we?
BLAKE: An 800-mile drive, and the rest of it -- lousy $43. You call that perfect? And that? You don't believe that con about no clues, do you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You worry too much. (END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, in New Haven Connecticut, Dr. Henry Lee, the internationally renown forensic expert, former commissioner of public safety for the state of Connecticut, and author of "Cracking Cases: The Science of Solving Crimes."
In Spokane, Washington, Mark Fuhrman, the former LAPD detective has become a major bestselling author in his own right.
And in Las Vegas, Gary King, author of "Murder in Hollywood: The Secret Life and Mysterious Death of Bonny Lee Bakley."
I want to start with Mark Fuhrman. Mark, has the L.A. police, as you know of this case, handled this well to this minute?
MARK FUHRMAN, AUTHOR/FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: I would say so, Larry. Last year I was actually hired by a magazine to write an article. So I went down there in the end May, beginning of June last year. So I interviewed a lot of the players in this case. I've been to Vitello's.
And there's a lot of things that the LAPD had to do. And a lot of people think this was a rush to judgment in the Simpson trial. Well, there wasn't. We had the suspect and all the evidence right there. This case is quite different. They had a lot of witnesses, they had a lot of witnesses, they had a lot of people involved, with not only the victim but the suspect, that were not in Los Angeles. They had a gun they had to connect up to somebody. They had possible conspiracy, so I think they had a long process to go through. And it took a lot of time.
L. KING: Dr. Henry Lee, now what will they need to -- you're the forensic expert. What are they going to have to show with regard to guns and connecting the two?
DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSICS EXPERT: Well, first, you have to link the bullet to the gun, link the gun to the original owner. Somehow the gun linked to Blake. Either through the history tracing or the bullet (UNINTELLIGIBLE) system, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) system to link him to this weapon.
Of course, they're going to check his hand for DSR, the gunshot residue. Whether or not that night he did, in fact, discharge a firearm.
L. KING: That would have been done some time ago, right?
LEE: That night when police talked to him, the first thing they should collect a hand swab -- SEM disk, to collect a hand --
L. KING: Would you gather, Henry, that since they've made an arrest, they have a lot of this evidence? LEE: I think they probably have some, traced the gun and the bullet. Of course, that's inside the vehicle, you should have the bullet recovered, whether or not the casing recovered. Then we can calculate the distance. It's a close range shell. In a close range shell, whether or not there was high velocity blood spatter on the clothing.
L. KING: Gary King, you wrote "Murder in Hollywood." And your conclusion was, as the police have concluded, correct?
GARY KING, AUTHOR: Correct. I felt that Blake and Caldwell were involved somehow all long. And this was the conclusion that I've been expecting. And, of course, a lot of people have been waiting for.
L. KING: Do you have a scenario? In other words, what did Caldwell do, what did Blake do that night?
G. KING: No, I really don't. Nothing other than, you know, what's already been said. There's just no way to tell until the police start divulging some of their information.
L. KING: A major part of this story, Gary, is her, is it not?
G. King: Yes, it is.
L. KING: The kind of life she led?
G. KING: This is true, yes.
L. KING: It adds to the intrigue?
G. KING: Right. And the thing that we need to keep in perspective here is that Bonny is a victim, and so is her family and so is little Rosie. And that -- that they need to see justice at some point. And I think with the arrests, you know, we're one step closer to having that justice.
L. KING: Mark, when police say they have compelling and significant evidence and, of course, it is circumstantial because there's no eyewitnesses to this crime, it is all physical and circumstantial, do you gather that means it is connected directly to the weapon?
FUHRMAN: I believe it's connected to the weapon. But we're forgetting that he relinquished his boots that had mud on them the night of the shooting at the police station, he did that. The GSR was taken then. We have a dispute, was there casings found at the scene? Well, obviously the suspect had to be outside of the vehicle.
He wouldn't have picked up the casings and then disposed of the weapon, that is ridiculous. But I think Harland Braun made a point when he said he doesn't know if the D.A. is going to file this. It is ridiculous. Last night, Captain Tatreau, when he gave the press conference, said that they issued an arrest warrant. Arrest warrant means the case has been filed. The arrest warrant stimulated from the D.A.'s office. They issued that, they served it. The case is filed. They are just going to arraign him on Monday and argue bail. That's it.
L. KING: So why would Harland even say that?
FUHRMAN: Well, it is spin, as Gary said. It's spin. We see this case in a way that we're trying to compare it to the Simpson case. You cannot. This case was completely different. This is a case that had to be tracked down piece by piece.
And we forget that Captain Tatreau said things went our way. That means that when they went out to investigate something, they got breaks they didn't count on. They got breaks that led them to places that were rich in evidence. And they've got it. And they said the case is solved. I'm very confident that they've got this dead bang.
L. KING: We'll take a break and come back with more of Dr. Henry Lee, Mark Fuhrman and Gary King. You are watching LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Mr. Blake certainly was a suspect from the start. But there was significant evidence, as you recall, delivered to this department at the back of Parker Center days after the murder. That included many of the 900 items of evidence that we had to evaluate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, MAY 16, 2001)
EARLE CALDWELL, ROBERT BLAKE'S BODYGUARD: So wild, there's so much craziness going on. It is hard to say anything. I know who didn't have anything to do with this and this is Mr. Blake. He just doesn't have it in him to do something like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: That was Earle Caldwell, also charged in this and appearing on this program almost a year ago. What's the dynamic, Gary King, between Caldwell and Blake?
G. KING: Well, I believe Blake, you know, took him in and agreed to basically hire him and put him up, take care of him for the rest of his life. And there's a certain amount of loyalty there, there appears to be, between Caldwell and Blake.
L. KING: What do you gather the police think Caldwell's involvement was since we know Caldwell was in San Francisco the night of her killing?
G. KING: I honestly don't know and it would be speculation on my part. But it would seem to me that some of the planning of this, I mean, this definitely would have had to be planned out in pretty great detail.
L. KING: Do you have a scenario, Mark Fuhrman, as to how he is involved or do you think they're using it, as the attorney said, as a threat to get him to turn?
FURHMAN: Well, I think they're using it in both ways, Larry. I think they've got a good case on Caldwell. I would say -- and I do not have any information -- but just reading it the way I saw the press conference last night, it seems that Caldwell was in northern California. We can't put him at the scene.
So, one piece of evidence that can definitely connect you up in the conspiracy would be the weapon. Blake, if he had Caldwell get the weapon or he had the weapon and Caldwell filed the numbers off of the weapon or did anything regarding this murder, setting it up, leaving the weapon somewhere for him to use it that night when he went back to the car, of course, they've got a good case. It is conspiracy to commit. And they'll either prosecute him or they'll let him roll and turn state's evidence and get some kind of immunity.
L. KING: Dr. Lee, in your experience, did this case take a long time to lead to an arrest or was this about right?
LEE: Well, it's about right. Sometimes, you have a conclusive evidence right away so the arrest is usually sooner. But this is a circumstantial evidence and you need other physical evidence, trace the weapon. We still don't know who is the triggerman. Is it Mr. Blake himself fired the shot or murder for hire? So, a lot of questions here. You have to piece it out, try to find out. Last night, I have the chance to listen to an arrest statement. I was on a lecture tour to Arizona Bar Association. But I just now heard say 900 pieces of physical evidence. That's an awful lot of physical evidence.
L. KING: You said there still could have been another person doing the actual crime, someone paid to do this, someone maybe unknown, right?
LEE: Yes. It's a possibility, because if he -- if I recall correctly -- say he went back to the restaurant to retrieve his weapon. I'm sure that weapon has been tested. The bullet is not from his weapon. Must be from a different weapon, what he carried.
L. KING: So, Mark Fuhrman, there could have been someone else doing the shooting unknown to the police, but they believe they can connect it through a hire?
FURHMAN: No, I don't believe that's the case at all. They said last night on the press conference they're filing murder charges on Robert Blake. He is the shooter, special circumstances lying in wait. He has to be the one that is the shooter in this case, lying in wait.
And, you know, it was interesting the way that Blake actually had his story. He's missing 13 minutes. He's missing between 9:30 and 9:43. Those minutes are just up for grabs. And it is interesting that Blake wanted to be away from his wife with not having a gun, actually going to retrieve it, to make sure that is a plausible part of his argument or his story. And then he comes back and the wife is murdered.
And they have connected the gun that was found in the dumpster through ballistics to the bullets found in the victim. So that's an absolute -- I say the gun is the connective tissue between Caldwell, Blake and the murder.
L. KING: I thank you all very much. We'll be calling on you again. Dr. Henry Lee in New Haven, Mark Fuhrman in Spokane. Mark's doing -- his next book will be about the death penalty in Oklahoma. And in Las Vegas, Gary King, the author of "Murder in Hollywood: The Secret Life and Mysterious Death of Bonny Lee Bakley."
When we come back, our remaining moments with two of our definitive experts on the subject of criminal law, Mark Geragos and Nancy Grace. Don't go away.
KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE defense attorney Mark Geragos in our bureau here in Los Angeles; and in Atlanta, Nancy Grace. She's back home tonight, Georgia country, former prosecutor and anchor for "Trial Heat" on Court TV.
Mark, does it appear that Mr. Blake is up against it?
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that's an understatement. I agree with Harland. It is a little unusual, in fact, more than a little unusual that they didn't have the complaint filed and that the police went out there and are now going to kind of foist it upon the DA's office.
But I would be shocked, absolutely shocked, if they didn't file because this DA's office has been intimately involved in this investigation for months. In fact, there was rumors of a grand jury had been convened and witnesses had been subpoenaed early on in this case. My guess is is that they know everything that's going on and have quite a good deal of input.
KING: Nancy, in fact, do you think the DA signed off on the arrest?
NANCY GRACE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely, Larry. And I think that because this has been a very long and sustained investigation, the DA, the district attorney, has been part of this from the get-go. You can't tell me after these many months he didn't know what was going down. He's got it all timed.
And I want to add that this is a case that screams out for special circumstances. These two will not, under any circumstances, be tried together. This is a case that could qualify as a death penalty case. Very rarely do you see two co-defendants tried together if a death penalty is sought.
GERAGOS: Yes. I -- it might be special circumstances. In fact, I believe it probably will...
GRACE: You're darn right.
GERAGOS: ... if for no other reason than that will prevent him from being bailed out. If it is special circumstances here in California, there is no presumptive bail that's allowed.
GRACE: And one other circumstance, Mark, the fact that someone was murdered and if he did lie in wait and did try to hire a hitman, he will qualify.
GERAGOS: Except under these circumstances, I think that their theory does not support the lying in wait. You know, they've got a -- there's 28 technically special circumstances they could have charged.
KING: Do you allow the host one little question? Just hate to bother you, but what is special circumstances, since one would think all murder would require some special circumstance?
GRACE: There are certain cases, Larry, that are deemed to be so cold, so calculated such as hiring a hitman, torture killings, mass murders, that seem to set themselves apart from your run of the mill murder, if I dare call a murder run of the mill.
KING: Is it based on the nature of both of you, Mark, as a defense attorney to automatically want him to be innocent? And, Nancy, as a prosecutor, to want them to convict?
GERAGOS: I don't think it works that way. I really don't. I think that you find, to some degree, people react to who the person is. They react to what the crime is. And I think most people, even Nancy included, and I say that with some degree of hesitation -- actually hope that the police and the prosecutors get it right and that the evidence is there. I don't think anybody for a minute wants to see innocent people get convicted. And I don't think anybody wants to see guilty people go free.
GRACE: Absolutely not because that would require that a true killer be walking amongst us. But what I want more than anything is for the truth to come out in a court.
KING: So, Nancy, what makes you suspect that the prosecution has a pretty strong one here?
GRACE: Well, right now, since we don't know all the facts, I would guess that there are three things out there that we're going to hear about. One, a wiretap where he blabs on the phone with someone, maybe in code, but enough to understand. Two, that they have traced the gun somehow back to Robert Blake or Caldwell, his henchman. Or three, and this is very likely, that he solicited other people to commit the murder. And now they've cracked and they've told police.
GERAGOS: She hasn't made up her mind, though, when she says henchmen. That's just a descriptive term.
GRACE: We'll see on Monday. KING: If a guy comes to testify and says, they contacted me about killing him, that would be major?
GERAGOS: That's the two counts of solicitation, exactly. The other piece of evidence that you would suspect that they would have is a gunshot residue test, a GSR test.
KING: That would have been from a year ago.
GERAGOS: Yes, that would have been from a year ago.
GRACE: But that really means nothing, Mark.
GERAGOS: Harland would argue that the GSR test is not going to tell you much because admittedly he was in the environment where there was a gun because he'd gone back to get his gun and the test itself says (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
GRACE: But also, Mark, even if you just brush your hands on your shirt, you can get rid of gun residue. So if he's negative, it means nothing. But if it's on his shoes, he's in trouble.
KING: Is it a slam dunk if they get Earle Caldwell to turn?
GERAGOS: If Earle Caldwell will turn on him, that becomes a very difficult case. But I think that Harland is right. I think that the reason they arrested him was to try to get him to turn.
KING: Oh, you do?
GERAGOS: I believe that's the case. And because -- Nancy's got a point there that kind of tells you that. The fact that if they're going to seek a special circumstance here, they generally would not do it with two people together. And I think they arrested him to see if they could get him to turn.
GRACE: Mark, so you say police arrested him just to get his statement? I disagree. They're charging him with conspiracy to commit murder. That means if they're right, he was in on it from the ground level.
KING: Let me get a call in from Ottawa. Hello?
KING: Go ahead.
CALLER: Hi. I was wondering if you think that Robert Blake's celebrity status will have any kind of an impact on the jurors?
GRACE: I definitely do. When you invite somebody into your den every night for years, you feel like you get to know them. And you don't want to believe that they can do such a thing, much less a man kill his wife. Even if they weren't getting along, the mother of his baby girl. You just don't want to believe it. We think we know him, he's Baretta. It is going to take a higher level of proof to convict him, but by the way the police were talking, it sounds to me like they've got it.
KING: Mark, we also know him from "In Cold Blood", in which he played a killer, magnificently, by the way.
GERAGOS: Exactly, and that's going to -- that's going to also cut against him.
KING: Where does celebrity stand in this celebrity town?
GERAGOS: The celebrity means that you're going to get -- in L.A., it does make it to some degree harder to get a conviction for the prosecution. And it does -- there are always jurors who are going to be to some degree star struck. So I would agree with that.
But at the same time, what cuts against you is that you do get prosecutors and you do get judges who tend to go the extra nine steps, if you will, to make sure that they get the convictions.
KING: Hooking ahead, Nancy, will this be a case where they sequester the jury?
GRACE: Definitely. I absolutely think with this amount of media already, that it's best for both sides. Juries don't like it, but I think it is best to insure a fair trial.
KING: Will there be a gag order, Mark, on the attorneys and the prosecutors?
GERAGOS: I would -- my bet would be yes.
KING: Depending on the area, of course.
GERAGOS: It obviously...
GRACE: Good luck enforcing it.
GERAGOS: ... is going to depend on who the judge is, but the judge probably, hearing the cases that I've had, usually what they will do is they will give you kind of a modified gag order.
GERAGOS: You can talk within certain parameters what happened during the day in the trial.
GRACE: And the attorney sits up all night trying to think of ways to get around that gag order.
GERAGOS: Well, they generally have the family that will do that or they will have surrogates that will do it. So, it isn't...
KING: The prosecutor will, too.
GERAGOS: Yes, and the prosecutor does the same. So, you've got the police who do this or that.
KING: What can you tell us about the Van Nuys Court?
GERAGOS: Well, I think that's more pro-prosecution. I think that's one of the reasons that they did not go by way of indictment and have this brought downtown. You get a more diverse jury pool downtown. It is generally thought to be a more pro-defense jury pool downtown. And that by going way of complaint in Van Nuys, you get a more pro-prosecution jury, if you will.
KING: Nancy, media circus again?
GRACE: Well, I think that we see it gearing up. I suspect there will be a gag order in place, and I think that will insure a lot of the defendant's rights. And he's also got one heck of a lawyer.
KING: Robert Blake is not O.J. Simpson, because he'd been out of things for a while.
GERAGOS: Yes, but O.J. Simpson was before kind of a real explosion in cable TV news as well. You've got, I think, a media that is now in the year 2002...
KING: That's tabloid heaven.
GERAGOS: Exactly. It's substantially different than it was -- as you well know. You're the expert on it from 1995 and 1996. I think that even with lesser celebrities, so to speak, that you can have even a bigger media circus.
KING: So meaning, Geragos and Grace, we can count on both of you.
GERAGOS: We'll fight nightly, but we'll dine on weekends.
GRACE: Front and center.
KING: And if there's a gag order, we'll be seeing you almost every night, won't we, for the complete hour? Thank you both very much, Nancy Grace, the former prosecutor, anchor for "Trial Heat" on Court TV; and Mark Geragos, the famed defense attorney here in Los Angeles.
Well, we're going to stay on top and abreast of these things. We'll tell you about what's coming up over the weekend, again on Monday night. We'll do that when we come back. Don't go away.
KING: On Monday night, more on this extraordinary case. John Walsh will join us and our two attorneys who were with us earlier, representing kind of both sides here, will be back.
Tomorrow night, the Rock is with us. His big movie opens today. And Sunday night, a tribute with highlight tapes of Robert Urich. That's editions of LARRY KING WEEKEND. "NEWSNIGHT" is next with a man who must be pretty tired because he was up until 2:00 a.m. live last night on this case. Here he is in New York, Aaron Brown.
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