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CNN Talkback Live

Robert Blake Faces Arraignment; American Cardinals Head to Vatican

Aired April 22, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.

We are looking at two court cases as well as what homosexuals have to do with the Catholic church abuse scandal. And wait until you here what the man accused in the September 11 attacks is putting the court through. I want to hear from you as always. So give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail talkback@cnn.com.

In just about an hour from now, actor Robert Blake will be formally charged with the shooting death of his wife, Bonny Lee Bakley. Bakley was killed last May in the couples' car near a Los Angeles restaurant, where the two had just eaten. CNN correspondent Frank Buckley is covering the story in Los Angeles and joins us right now. Frank, first, let me ask you this though, why was that arraignment delayed, Frank?

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's not really clear. We were told by some court officials that it seemed as though the district attorney's office was still preparing the complaint this morning. We are not really sure what the delay is about.

What was happening today, though, is we know that the police department was going to formally present the complaint that they were looking for to the district attorney's office. The district attorney would then actually write that complaint. That complaint would be filed in the court as it appears for this arraignment, which is now scheduled for about 1:30 local time, 4:30 Eastern.

NEVILLE: Frank, what can we expect to happen after that?

BUCKLEY: Well, before the arraignment even gets under way, we are expecting a hearing on whether or not a camera will be allowed in that courtroom. Harland Braun, the defense attorney for Robert Blake, is asking that the camera be excluded. It's our understanding that the district attorney's office will be arguing in favor of the camera, at least for this proceeding.

CNN has retained an attorney in Kelly Sager (ph), a well-known First Amendment attorney that people might recall from the O.J. Simpson era who will argue on behalf of CNN and other news organizations to have that camera inside the courtroom. After that is resolved, then the camera will turn on, if in fact, the commissioner, Michael Duffy, decides to have that camera in the courtroom. Then we'll have the arraignment. Both Robert Blake and Earle Caldwell, his handyman attorney, will appear in court. There is sort of a side area with a smoky glass and a sort of a half door. Both defendants will appear behind that door. We are told that Robert Blake will be in street clothes, not the orange jump suit of the L.A. County jail.

They will appear there. They will be asked to enter a plea. Chances are their attorneys will enter pleas for them, but they will also be asked to verbally give their plea. After that, in the case of Robert Blake, if in fact the district attorney's office seeks a special circumstance, his attorney will be asked to admit or deny the special circumstance. There may be a discussion of bail, then a preliminary hearing date will be set -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: And it looks like the case is already attracting a lot of attention because it looks like you have a crowd behind you, Frank.

BUCKLEY: I guess you can get the sense of that. There's -- I wish I could turn the camera around because the cameras are all here not to see Frank Buckley necessarily, but to see Margerry Bakley, who is sitting next to me.

NEVILLE: I thought they were coming to see you. Well, Frank, thank you very much for that update.

And with us now is Jeffrey Toobin, CNN's new legal analyst. Jeff, welcome to the show, first of all.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Great to be here, Arthel.

NEVILLE: And as you just heard Frank say, one of the issues to be discussed today is cameras in the courtroom. Who wants them, who doesn't want them and who is going to get their way?

TOOBIN: Well, I think this case has a long way to go. And I got a little feedback on my microphone here, but the answer is at this point, it looks like the defense doesn't want them and the prosecution does. But, in fact, that could change along the way.

I think Harland Braun, the attorney, is keeping his options open. Once you agree to have the cameras in, you are pretty much committed to having them in. I think it may not actually be against his interest to have the cameras in. Certainly, today's hearing, which is really a pretty routine matter, I don't think Harland Braun cares too much about this being in front of the cameras or not. But I think he is worried, potentially, about what could happen down the road.

NEVILLE: Now, Harland Braun is expected to really, I guess, attack Bonny Bakley's character. How far do you think he will go?

TOOBIN: Well, he's going to go as far as the judge will let him. And I think the interesting question will be how far will the judge do that. In the press, you know, there are really no limits. And he's been talking a lot about how she had lots of enemies. She was involved in this lonely hearts operation on the Internet and that would have been a source of potential suspects in the case.

But he really won't be able to do that kind of thing at the trial. At a trial, he's going to have to point to specific alternative suspects who had specific opportunities to commit this crime. And only if he can do that will he be able to bring out that aspect of her character.

NEVILLE: Could it possibly backfire if in fact he does try to paint her as a shady character, if you will, and because sometimes the jury may become more sympathetic towards the victim?

TOOBIN: Certainly, there is always a risk with the "blame the victim" strategy. But keep in mind, Harland Braun has a history on these sorts of issues. He was one of the lawyers for the policemen in the Rodney King case, and he won an acquittal of his client in Simi Valley, which was the case that prompted the L.A. riots by saying that Rodney King fought back against the cops and he really deserved essentially what he got. So he's not worried about being popular. He thinks it's going to work in front of the jury, he is going to do it.

NEVILLE: All right, Jeff, standby for me, if you will because right now, I wants to you meet Bonny Bakley's sister, Margerry. Margerry, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE first of all.

MARGERRY BAKLEY, BONNY LEE BAKLEY'S SISTER: Hi.

NEVILLE: You know, it's clear the defense is going to try to paint your sister in a very bad light. Are you and your family prepared to go through all of that?

BAKLEY: I don't think you could ever be prepared to go through this type of thing. It's just something you have to take one day at a time.

NEVILLE: Tell us, if you will, the Bonny you knew, Margerry.

BAKLEY: Bonny was a loving mother. She provided well for her family. She was overworked and she was a great person to pal around with. She made you laugh continuously. Her first concern was always her family and making a living is one thing and a love life is another thing. And Mr. Braun is trying to combine the two and they really were two separate issues.

NEVILLE: Now, Robert Blake has said that many people had a reason to have wanted to kill your sister. Do you believe that?

BAKLEY: No. I believe, you know, she probably angered a lot of people in her life and, you know, I have angered a lot of people in my life too. But she was never afraid of anybody else except for Mr. Blake.

NEVILLE: What would you like to see happen to Robert Blake?

BAKLEY: Well, just exactly what is happening. I think he's where he belongs. You know, if you commit murder, you are going to have to go to jail. I mean, that's just the way it is. Again, I do not believe in the death penalty, though.

NEVILLE: What about Rose? What do you say to Rose? Does she understand everything that is going on?

BAKLEY: No. She's not quite two yet, and I have yet to even visit with the little baby.

NEVILLE: Where is the baby now? Where is she? Who has her?

BAKLEY: I believe Delina (ph) has custody of her.

NEVILLE: I'm sorry.

BAKLEY: I believe his daughter, Delina, has custody of Rosie.

NEVILLE: Now what about your family seeking custody? Is that a possibility that you would go after that?

BAKLEY: No. That's just not accurate. I have no intentions of traumatizing that child. Visitation is one thing. Custody is another. I'm not seeking custody.

NEVILLE: Margerry Bakley, thank you so much for joining us here this afternoon.

BAKLEY: Thank you Ms. Neville.

NEVILLE: And, of course, Jeffrey Toobin is sticking around with us. CNN will bring you live coverage of the arraignment of Robert Blake scheduled to happen in the next hour or so.

Don't go anywhere, because when we come back, you won't believe what the man accused in the 9/11 terrorist attacks is demanding in court. Stick around for that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(voice-over): Later this hour, do homosexuality and an immoral country have anything to do with sex scandals in the Catholic church?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The church has to deal with a very touchy issue, a very meddlesome one, and that's the prevalence of gays in the priesthood because a lot of these cases don't involve molestation of little boys, pedophilia. It involves having sex with teenage boys, which is more sort of homosexual behavior.

NEVILLE: Should the Catholic church bar homosexuals from the priesthood? Find out what Monsignor Eugene Clark of St. Patrick's Cathedral suggested during yesterday homily. It's all ahead on TALKBACK LIVE.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody. Zacarias Moussaoui, charged with the conspiracy in the September 11 attacks on America, appeared in court today. Now, he was there to complain about what he calls the oppressive conditions in jail. But he soon admitted the whole thing was just a rouse so he could call and fire his lawyers.

Now he claims his lawyers are in cahoots with the government to kill him and he says he was never asked if he wanted a court-appointed lawyer. Moussaoui says if he doesn't get a Muslim lawyer, he wants to defend himself. And quote, "America, I am ready to fight even with both hands tied behind my back." He also called on Allah to destroy the United States, Russia and Israel. And right now, I want to bring Jeff Toobin back into this conversation.

Jeff, now is the judge going to let Moussaoui fire his lawyers?

TOOBIN: He might let him fire his lawyers, but he is certainly not going to say, well, you can -- we are going to find you a Muslim lawyer. You have no right to a Muslim lawyer. You have no right to a Protestant lawyer or a Catholic lawyer. You just have a right to a lawyer.

Now if Moussaoui comes to him and says this is the lawyer I want and he happens to be Muslim, that's fine. He can always choose a lawyer of his own choice. But he certainly can't insist that the government scour all of Virginia and find him a Muslim lawyer.

NEVILLE: Now, how does Moussaoui go about finding a lawyer?

TOOBIN: Well, probably the same way that anybody else goes about finding a lawyer. You have relatives, you have friends, you have people out in the community who help you out or someone comes forward. I mean, there are in fact probably a lot of people who would want to be involved in a high-profile case like that. But you certainly have no right to have the United States government go ask all the lawyers what their religion is and then bring some Muslim lawyer to him. That just is not going to happen.

NEVILLE: Sure. Standing here with Michaela (ph). What do you have to say?

MICHAELA (ph): Well, I think that he doesn't have a right to choose a Muslim lawyer, as our correspondent said, because religion is not a factor just as race is not either. And I don't think that should be a question on whether or not the lawyer is accountable or an adequate defense.

I think that they should let him represent himself so he can dig his own grave and probably send himself to jail.

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Thank you very much. Well, you know, that's what we love about our TALKBACK audience. They love to speak out.

Now, you know, aside from Moussaoui saying he can't trust his attorneys, what other problems did he have with them?

TOOBIN: Well, he doesn't like his terms of confinement. He wants a computer. He wants greater access to witnesses. And that's actually a common complaint of many people awaiting trial. But I don't think there's going to be any special arrangements made for him. And I think those oppressive conditions will -- he'll be treated just like everyone else.

NEVILLE: And he could have asked for his own attorney, right?

TOOBIN: He can still ask for his own attorney to this day.

NEVILLE: Exactly.

TOOBIN: But one of the things that's worth remembering about this case: It's in the eastern district of Virginia, a federal court that's known as "The Rocket Docket." And the clock is ticking there and this is not a court where he's going to get a delay of any kind. So if he thinks that by stirring the pot in this way, trying to fire his lawyers, he's going to delay the day of reckoning, it's just not going to happen in that courthouse.

NEVILLE: Now, is it likely that the judge would let him represent himself?

TOOBIN: Well, if worse comes to worse, the judge probably has no choice. If he fires all the lawyers available to him, he will let Moussaoui represent himself. Most judges really hate that because they like to be able to have an orderly procedure. But ultimately, it is the defendant's choice, and if he wants to represent himself, he can.

NEVILLE: And what about this notion of having a trial without a jury? What about that? How would that go over with the judge?

TOOBIN: Well, that is -- has to be an agreement between the prosecution and the defense and there is no way in the world the prosecution will agree to waive a jury in this case. So that is simply not going to happen.

NEVILLE: And he's made some horrible anti-American remarks. Will this come to harm him or I should say -- excuse me -- I meant to say haunt him?

TOOBIN: It may in the sense that he is tainting his own jury pool. People who are learning about the case who later may become jurors will be able to -- will make harsh judgments of him. But it's unlikely those specific statements will be admissible in court, but he is certainly not helping himself with these comments.

NEVILLE: And he says, Moussaoui says he has all this money that's frozen. He can't touch it. Now, can the judge help him get a hold of this money, I guess, if he needs it for an attorney?

TOOBIN: It is possible, but remember, these -- the investigation of Moussaoui is part of the larger investigation of the post-9/11. And a lot of that is a financial investigation which attempts to tie up the assets of terrorists. If the government can make a showing to the judge that this money comes from terrorism in some way, the judge is certainly not going to release it to let Moussaoui defend himself.

NEVILLE: Great. Herman, what do you have to say?

HERMAN: I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the American judicial system. And I think two of the main ones that you are innocent until proven guilty and the other one is that if you are guilty of a crime, the court of -- the law system is designed to find that. Because if you have the resources to hire investigators or do DNA tests and all these things, you can create distractions and diversions that may steer a jury away from the truth.

And back to being innocent before proven guilty, the media has already tried this man whether he's guilty or not.

NEVILLE: How do you say that, sir? We are not trying him in the media.

HERMAN: I think every time his name comes up, there's a negative reaction. Now I know with...

NEVILLE: How do you feel when you hear the name of Moussaoui, Zacarias Moussaoui?

HERMAN: Well, I'm trying my best to do what the American system is...

NEVILLE: I just asked you that question. You have a personal opinion and feelings. I'd like to know what happens to your blood when you hear that name?

HERMAN: I'm seeing him as a man that has the whole American nation against him. He's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. I have heard a lot in the media. The facts have not been brought to the table yet. Why do we not give a person innocence until they are proven guilty?

Now he is making some inflammatory statements which probably won't serve him well. But as of this point, he's innocent until he's proven guilty. We should remember that.

NEVILLE: You're absolutely right, of course. And as a journalist, we do know that and that's the way this story will be covered, OK? Thank you.

All right, Jeffrey. There you have it. TALKBACK LIVE speaking out as always. Jeffrey Toobin, thank you so much for joining us here today.

TOOBIN: Thank you, Arthel. Thanks for having me.

NEVILLE: OK. And we'll be right back with more of TALKBACK LIVE in a moment. So don't go anywhere.

(APPLAUSE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(voice-over): Up next on TALKBACK LIVE, while Catholic cardinals look for guidance from the Vatican, we'll look for answers to the sexual abuse scandal plaguing the church.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should make sure that this does not happen again. And the way we do that is cleaning up the seminaries and making sure that homosexuals are not in the priesthood any longer.

NEVILLE: Is homosexuality part of the problem?

Also, how hard is it for a priest to walk the straight and narrow when the whole country is wide open? And tell us what you want to hear from your priest, right after the break.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody.

Most of America's cardinals began arriving in Rome today. They face two days of meetings over the handling of a sex abuse scandal involving some priests. CNN correspondence Jonathan Mann -- correspondent -- is there. And, Jon, what is on the table at these meetings?

JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, it's amazing how much we know about what is on the table. The Vatican -- and you can see it behind me in the darkness -- it's shrouded in darkness right now. Usually, it's shrouded in secrecy.

What is on the table for the next two days is a scandal which is really tearing at the heart of the U.S. church. What are the bishops, what are the priests of the country going to do about regaining the public's trust? It's not clear that any firm decisions will be reached over the next two days, but the 13 U.S. cardinals who have been invited here will get a chance to hear from the pope himself and from some of his most senior Vatican officials about the approach they should take when, in fact, new guidelines are set. Those guidelines are expected to come from the U.S. at a meeting of bishops in Dallas in June.

This is a chance to hear what the pope wants, what the Vatican wants, before they go back to the drawing board, do their homework and make some big decisions.

NEVILLE: And, Jonathan, they are also talking about possibly raising the idea of a one strike, you are out policy for offenders. Can you tell us more about that? And do you have any idea where the Vatican stands on that idea?

MANN: Well, that is a very specific point that's going to be very high on the agenda. And you are right to bring it up. The question is this: Does a priest who is known to have abused a youngster or a teenager have to leave the priesthood immediately, no matter what, or can the church, as it has in the past, try to see the priest through treatment, try to work with the problem and keep men who are devoted to their faith, devoted to their flock, in the calling?

One strike, you are out means they would have to leave and there's no consensus on that. Many bishops, and I imagine the cardinals, are torn about really whether these men have to leave the church because they make a single mistake. There is no consensus and let me quickly explain why. Pedophiles, men who assault young, young children, are generally regarded by the scientists who study the problem as being beyond most kinds of treatment.

But in many of these cases we are talking about priests who took terrible advantage of young teens. And scientists, once again, say that is often a different kind of issue and it might be more amenable to treatment. It's a problem that is more amenable to solution. So should those men have to leave the priesthood? That's what they are going to be discussing at the Vatican for the next two days.

NEVILLE: Interesting. I have Joe here with a comment or a question.

JOE: Well, I grew up Catholic and there have just been so many good priests that I have met in my life, and I feel all the attention paid to the bad ones is sad. But I think that if they do do this once, they should be kicked out just so that the good priests don't have to suffer like they are right now.

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Thank you, sir.

MANN: Arthel, that's a really important point. Let me jump in and talk about that. There are about 46,000 priests in the United States. Some of the estimates talk about there being allegations against 1,000, maybe 2,000. But the vast majority of these men are incredibly decent, giving men who are devoting their lives to the service of God and the service of their communities. And he's absolutely right. It's really a mistake to forget about them, even as the church concentrates on trying to weed out the ones who are a danger.

NEVILLE: Jonathan, you know, we are reading the article in the "L.A. Times" that says that one of the -- or some of the cardinals may ask for the resignation of Cardinal Law from Boston. Any confirmation on that?

MANN: No. It's an extraordinary story that the "L.A. Times" is reporting, that one of the cardinals is not only trying to seek the resignation of his colleague, but is in fact willing to go public and tell the world about it.

We have been asking the cardinals that we have met at the airport. We have been asking other people who have access to these conversations and we have not had it confirmed. The cardinals have spoken out in the past, some of them with faint praise for Cardinal Law and some of them with difficult to interpret answers. We have not heard directly, at least I have not heard directly, that there's a single cardinal on the record as saying it should happen.

NEVILLE: Jonathan Mann, thank you so much for that update.

And right now, we want to update you on the Robert Blake story, so we're going to toss it over to Frank Buckley who is standing by in Los Angeles -- Frank.

BUCKLEY: Arthel, CNN has obtained a copy of the criminal complaint that will be filed today for the arraignment of Robert Blake and his handyman bodyguard, Earle Caldwell. The district attorney's office is in fact seeking four counts against Robert Blake. They are murder, with the special circumstance of lying in wait. Also, solicitation of murder is the second count. The third count, also, solicitation of murder and the fourth count against Robert Blake, conspiracy to commit murder. That is also the count that Earle Caldwell is going to be facing, conspiracy to commit a crime of murder. And they cite the date of January 2, 2001 on that.

We'll obviously get some further detail as this develops and as we find out more during the arraignment that's coming up in about an hour. But so far, we do have again, CNN has obtained the criminal complaint. Four counts against Robert Blake and one count against Earle Caldwell -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: Frank, thank you very much for that update.

And we're going to take a break right now. But when we come back, we're going to talk about the scandal in the Catholic church, the priest scandal, and whether or not homosexuality is directly related. We'll be back in a moment.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.

Yesterday, during his Sunday sermon at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York, Monsignor Eugene Clark put some of the blame for the sex scandal on homosexuality. He said, quote, "homosexuality became in the American exchange of views a protected area. And, unfortunately, homosexual students were allowed to pass through seminaries. It was a grave mistake, not because homosexuals in any way tend to criminality, but because it is a disorder."

And we are going to talk about this now with Harry Crocker, author of "Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church, a 2,000 Year History," and Anthony Padovano, a Catholic theologian. He resigned from the priesthood more than 25 years ago and is married. Welcome to both of you gentlemen here.

ANTHONY PADOVANO, CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN: Thank you. HARRY CROCKER, AUTHOR: Thank you very much.

PADOVANO: Nice to be here.

NEVILLE: Great. Mr. Padovano, I'll begin with you. And what do you have to say about that statement?

PADOVANO: I think that there's a real problem in saying that homosexuality is the source of the difficulty. I think the large number of homosexuals in the Catholic priesthood is due to the fact that heterosexuals do not find it as attractive any more. And I think the conservative policies of the present pope has led to a great deal of attrition so that the pool from which the church is able to draw in having men enter the priesthood has become extremely small.

As a result of that, the number of dysfunctional people that you will tend to attract tends to be percentage wise a lot larger than it would have been had the system been less artificial and more natural, more connected with life systems and so on.

NEVILLE: Mr. Crocker, is it not a reckless statement to, or a reckless intimation to try to find a direct correlation between pedophilia and homosexuality?

CROCKER: Well, I mean, that's where the distinction being made between pedophilia and homosexuality. And a couple things need to be borne in mind, the first of which is that you are no more likely to be molested by a Catholic priest than you are by anyone else, as far as we have good, hard data.

Second of all, we know that between 90 and 98 percent of these cases are not cases of pedophilia. They are not cases either of heterosexual molestation. They are cases of homosexual behavior. Priests, predatory homesexual priests, targeting teenage boys. So I think the Monsignor is right in the fact that if homosexuals had not been accepted into the priesthood, we would not be on this show today talking about it.

How many homosexuals that are in the priesthood, what percentage are violating their vow of celibacy is an open question. But I also take issue with the idea that we don't have enough of a pool of good men for the seminaries. I mean, let's remember that the discipline of celibacy goes way back in the church, at least back to the council of Nicea (ph) in the fourth century. We had no...

NEVILLE: Right. Let me share something with you here regarding the idea of homosexuality in the Catholic church. This is written by an Emory University professor who says -- he believes that an all-male celibate priesthood is an attractive choice for men who don't want to get married and have a family, who want to be with other men and want to be within a system that will either help them not act on their desires or else cover up when they do act on those desires. How do you respond to those charges?

CROCKER: It's a rationalization. I mean, you cannot proof that. I mean, we know that the authority of a priest -- he's called a father because his entire congregation is to be his family. He has to be so selfless and giving, he's is supposed to be imitating Christ, that he wants a family. But his family goes beyond his wife and his children.

This is a fairly, as far as we can tell, recent crisis. We haven't been talking about the pedophilia crisis in the Catholic church going back hundreds and hundreds of years. It's also deceptive because we are telescoping 40 years worth of cases. A lot of these cases date from the 1960's and the 1970's into a single news cycle here in 2002.

NEVILLE: OK, I'm going to jump in here with Antoine (ph).

ANTOINE (ph): I believe this Monsignor Clark is of the same unfortunate school of thought that, per se, tried to keep Elvis from reaching the world with his music because it was evil and that it was pervasive to the degeneration of the youth of that time. It's an unfortunate misunderstanding and supreme stupidity, I feel.

NEVILLE: Thank you for sharing those comments. I want to walk over here to Mary Ann (ph) now. And you are a Catholic, correct?

MARY ANN (ph): No, I'm not.

NEVILLE: You're not? Oh, OK. Pardon me.

MARY ANN: I think that no one is above the law. No matter who you are or what your profession is, you are required to abide by the laws, and I just have a question also. They are talking about teenage boys and that that's not as difficult. But, you know, how many children do you have to abuse before you are a child abuser? How many?

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Who wants to address that?

CROCKER: Well, I mean, I can tell you that, I think that's true. The problem here is not that the Catholic church has been too authoritarian, which it is often stereotyped as, but rather that it has been too tolerant, too liberal.

If the Catholic church had been enforcing its own scriptures, its own beliefs, its own discipline and orthodoxy, these men would have been bounced, their collars would have been removed. I mean, it seems to me this is the real scandal, is that this Catholic church has tolerated dissent, dissent to the point of criminality.

When you have a priest like Father Shanley in Boston who is publicly endorsing the North American Man-Boy Love Association, and the hierarchy in Boston is treating this as a tolerable eccentricity -- this is a priest who eventually went on to run a gay hotel in California -- something is seriously wrong. And what is wrong is that immorality was being tolerated.

NEVILLE: Mr. Padovano, I want to give you a chance to jump in there. PADOVANO: Yes, may I just say a word on this?

I think the whole question of trying to make distinctions between whether people are pedophiles or whether they are dealing with adolescents or even dealing with men or with women, overlooks the fact that it is the fact that boundaries, sexual boundaries have been crossed, that's the really difficulty.

The celibacy seems to have been observed much more strongly and far better as long as the Catholic community and Catholic priest at large were convinced that this came from Christ. After the second Vatican council, it became quite clear that celibacy was optional until the 12th century, which is most of church history. It obviously, therefore, did not come from Christ. There were married popes. There were married bishops.

It was the effort to impose upon the Christian community a system that was fundamentally artificial that became problematic, especially when it was obvious that this did not come from Christ or God, but was a church law passed somewhat late in church history.

NEVILLE: And I want to jump in right there because I like the track you are on, Mr. Padovano. We are going to continue to talking about that after the break. We are going to talk about living without sex. Is it too much to ask of any human being or do some men really respond to a higher calling? That's after this break.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody, TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.

Continuing now our conversation about priests and possibly should they throw out the celibacy clause in the church doctrine. And according to two comments I read that the pope made just recently, just this weekend, it doesn't look like he's going to go for that. Mr. Padovano, what do you think about that?

PADOVANO: I don't think celibacy should be eliminated. I think mandatory celibacy should be. I think if someone freely chooses celibacy, if person finds it a creative experience as I did for 15 years in the ministerial priesthood, if you are surrounded by a loving community, celibacy can be an option that works.

Actually, the analogy here I think is the same as with marriage. If your marriage is optional in the sense that it is free, you have chosen it yourself, it is a creative experience, you're surrounded by community, the question of sexual fidelity is not a great problem. It's when the system begins to become dysfunctional.

I think what we are seeing here is not so much sexual aberration as such that it's only a symptom, but the underlying system under which the ministerial priesthood has been built tends to be very artificial. And, therefore, these symptoms begin to erupt. Mandatory celibacy will never work. It is built on the idea that women and sexuality are second-rate choices for a Christian. Optional celibacy does work. It's a creative experience in which a man can give himself fully to something that he believes is his own destiny and his own vocation.

NEVILLE: OK. Kay from Pennsylvania.

KAY: I agree with him. I think that, you know, mandatory celibacy should not be the issue. But, I mean, the bible says if some people are called to celibacy and some aren't, and if you are not, then you need to get married. And if you are, then you need to abstain. But, I mean, some people can better fulfill their calling by not getting married and doing all that. But if God is calling you to...

NEVILLE: Right. You know, that's a good point you make there. And I want to follow-up with some Catholics here in the audience. Jim, you are Catholic. Would you stand up for me? I want to ask you this.

Would you have a problem if priests were allowed to be married and to have a normal relationship with a woman?

JIM: I would definitely agree because times are different and I think it would be good. I totally agree because it would cut down on the cases and therefore you would have less.

NEVILLE: You had something else on your mind, too. What would you like to say?

JIM: Yes. In reference to the one-strike rule from previous, basically, if you molest or assault someone, it's a crime. And whether it is the president of the United States, it's a crime and you should pay the consequences.

NEVILLE: Thank you for speaking out for us, Jim.

And right now, we want to go back to Los Angeles where Frank Buckley is standing by live with more details on that Robert Blake case -- Frank.

BUCKLEY: Arthel, just going through that criminal complaint that CNN has obtained, we are going to give you some of the detail that's provided in that complaint now.

It says that in March of 2001, that Earle Caldwell, that's the handyman/bodyguard who is charged with conspiracy in this case or will be charged formally with conspiracy, that Caldwell provided a small- caliber gun to Robert Blake. And secondly, it says that Robert Blake asked a person that isn't identified in the complaint to hide his van in a desert area to kill Bonny Lee Bakley.

He also told that person that Earle Caldwell would be able to dig holes and would have already dug holes to bury Bonny Lee Bakley. In March of 2001, Blake allegedly told that person that that person could also kill Bonny Lee Bakley behind Vitello's restaurant. Ultimately, that's in fact where Bonny Lee Bakley was killed. And it allegedly, according to this complaint, drove that person to view possible murder sites.

Blake showed that person a gun also, according to this complaint, in a zippered case and said he could use that to commit the murder, that person could commit the murder using that gun.

Harland Braun, the attorney for Blake, we haven't been able to contact yet to talk about the specific allegations that are contained in this complaint, but we expect to hear from him later when this arraignment gets under way -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: Interesting details, Frank. Thanks so much for the update.

And you know what? Our e-mail system is jammed with all of you e-mailing on this subject about the priest scandal. I have got to take a break right now. But I promise you on the other side of the break, we'll listen to all of those e-mails and take your phone calls. Back in a moment.

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NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody. We are talking about sex and the Catholic church. Right now, I'd like to share an e-mail with you from Scott in Ontario. It reads: "It's a complete cop-out to blame homosexuality for the church's problems. I fail to see why sexuality should even be an issue if the church insists on clergy remaining celibate."

And James from Georgia, stand up and speak out.

JAMES: Yes. I would like to address the issue of homosexuality. Homosexuals have been scapegoats in this country for years and now the Catholic church is using them.

NEVILLE: And they shouldn't be the scapegoat, is what you are saying, right?

JAMES: Yes, basically, because there are many that are straight priests and in the Catholic church that are abusing...

NEVILLE: It could happen in any situation, doesn't matter if you're homosexual or not. Exactly. Thank you for that comment.

And I want to bring Kelly in on this conversation. Kelly, you are live on TALKBACK LIVE. Speak up for us please.

KELLY: Hi, Arthel. I have a 5-year-old daughter and I want to enroll her in Catholic school. And I want to know how do I find out if any of the priests in my city have any kind of record of abuse or anything?

NEVILLE: Mr. Padovano, please answer that quickly. We are short on time.

PADOVANO: I would guess one of the best things to do is to contact a local bishop in the chancery. I think, at this point, the chances that you are going to get a true answer are much better than they would have been just a few months ago.

NEVILLE: OK. We are out of time. Thank you so much to Harry Crocker and Anthony Padovano for being with us here this afternoon.

PADOVANO: Thank you, Arthel.

NEVILLE: Want to let you know that Connie Chung will anchor an hour-long special from Rome tonight on the crisis in the priesthood. That airs at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Don't forget to take a look at that.

I'm Arthel Neville and I will see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE. Judy Woodruff is next with a look ahead at what is "INSIDE POLITICS."

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