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CNN Talkback Live

Is There a Place in the Priesthood for Homosexuals?; How Much Should Children Know about Their Own Sexuality?

Aired April 23, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. Pope John Paul II told American cardinals something that might seem obvious. He told them sex abuse by priests is rightly considered a crime by society, and he said there's no place in religious life for abusers, and called it an appalling sin in the eyes of God.

Some church leaders are saying there might not be a place for homosexuals in the priesthood, either. We'll talk about that in just a minute. You know I'm want to hear from you, so call 1-800-310-4cnn and e-mail talkback@cnn.com. Now, take a look at what have for you today.

Purification, how will the church atone for sex offenses committed by priests?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to root out the kinds of priests or other people who would take advantage of our young people, our young children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is most importantly, a struggle to make sure that the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The important thing in Seminary formation is to ask whether or not a candidate is capable of marriage and family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: As the church struggles with what to do about sinning priests, a new book claims the fear of pedophelia is doing more harm to our children than good, and suggests that sex between adults and minors is not always harmful. But your reaction to it might be.

In just a minute we're going to Rome and get more reaction to the pope's comments. Right now, I would like you to meet Patrick Scully, director of communications with the Catholic League, and Mary Louise Hartman, president of the Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church. Welcome to both of you.

Mary Louise, I would like to begin with you. The president of the Conference of Bishops says is an ongoing struggle to make sure that the Catholic church is not dominated by homosexual men. Is this priest crisis suddenly being pinned on homosexuality?

MARY LOUISE HARTMAN, ASSN. FOR THE RIGHTS OF CATHOLICS IN THE CHURCH: We would certainly hope not. We think that it is a crisis of accountability, and we feel that any person is eligible that is called to be ordained as a priest as long as it is a mature person.

NEVILLE: Patrick, your thoughts are?

PATRICK SCULLY, THE CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Well, I would tend to agree with that. I think that the problem that we have had up until this point is that many men who have entered the priesthood are sexually immature, and having said that, a disproportionate number of them are homosexual. I don't know what is so bad about putting that on the table and talking about it.

NEVILLE: On second. Help me understand your basis here, for your theory. You are saying what, now? That...

(CROSSTALK)

SCULLY: I'm saying that...

NEVILLE: They are sexually immature?

SCULLY: That's right. In other words, they are incapable of celibacy, they never should have taken the vow in the first place. But the evidence that we have seen from the cases in the scandal is that a disproportionate amount of them are homosexual. Now pedophilia has also been a problem that former Father Geoghan that just rips everybody's heart out in Boston, was putting his hands on young children, pre-puberty.

But the vast majority of the offenders are putting their hands on 15, 16, 17-year-old males, That is homosexual activity. If we are going to talk about this problem, and solve the crisis, then we need to talk about it all honestly. All we have heard so far is that we should be discussing celibacy, women's ordination, everything is on the table. But as soon as you bring up the aspect of homosexuality everybody starts freaking out about it. And what the cardinals are saying here is that we have to be careful about who becomes a priest, but that is not an indictment of the gay community.

NEVILLE: But are you talking about -- I am still trying to understand, because if you say that these people, these men are sexually immature, and are you saying therefore, they can get around other men and they are going to be tempted to try sex with a man?

SCULLY: No, I am saying that the people that were coming out of the seminaries in the 70s and 80s were sexually immature and could not take the vow of celibacy and abide by it. And a disproportionate number of them are homosexual as we have seen in the cases that have come out. That is what we need to talk about, that is what we need to address.

NEVILLE: When you say that, Patrick, do you have any idea of how many we are talking about? How many gay priests there are? Is there anyway to know?

SCULLY: Let's make a distinction here. A gay priest who is celibate is not the problem. A gay priest who is not celibate, just as a heterosexual priest who is not celibate, is the problem. But if you look at the cases involved in the scandal, well over 90 percent of the them are homosexual in nature, not cases of pedophilia?

NEVILLE: Right. Go ahead, Mary Louise. Would you like to respond to that?

HARTMAN: I think we to reexamine the whole seminary system across the board throughout the universal church and it is time to install seminary boards which consist of people from the community in addition to the priests and the bishops who run the seminaries. There needs to be committees of professionals representing the communities so that choices for candidates can be made in a more mature way.

NEVILLE: Bill, from California?

BILL: Well, I think that the Catholic issue should be looking at the small percentage of people that are breaking the rules as priests. They need to focus on getting some rules, which they have not had in the past, to take care the small percentage. Heterosexual or homosexual, it is against the priesthood to not be celibate, and that is just, I disagree with him.

NEVILLE: Patrick?

SCULLY: Well no, I would agree with what he said. We need to address the small amount. First of all, one case is one too many. So, what we need to do is take this head-on, and I think we are already seeing that in Rome, even this morning when the pope spoke to the issue. It may sound like, no kidding, it is a crime.

But he has been -- the pope has been criticized in the past as having been silent on the issue. He was blunt, direct, he was precise, and he spoke to the victims who should be the center of all of this, and people should be looking at that. He spoke to the fact that it is a crime and he spoke that there is no place for it in the priesthood.

NEVILLE: And the question, Patrick, is what happens next? We'll talk about that after the break. We have to take a break right now, and later this hour, listen to this, guys, a controversial new book about children and sexuality says that Americans' fear of pedophilia is way overblown. We'll talk about Judith Levine's "Harmful To Minors," and you are going to be talking about it for days. Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back. Pope John Paul II today told American cardinals there is no place in the priesthood or in religious life for those that who would harm the young.

CNN correspondent Jim Bitterman is in Rome covering the cardinal's meeting, and Jim, what is the latest headline coming out of the conference?

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I do not know if there really is a headline. I think what the pope had to say earlier today was probably the most important thing that has happened today. The meetings have ended. We have had two rather lengthy sessions: The first session we got a very good readout on after that session. There was a news conference by Wilton Gregory (ph) the archbishop, who heads the American Bishops Conference, and Cardinal Francis George from Chicago after that morning session.

After the afternoon session there was supposed to have been a briefing but they canceled that, so we really have very little in the way of news out of that second session this afternoon, and as these talks go on, we are not going to get a whole lot until they end. The next real news briefing we will get is after the final communique comes out some time tomorrow.

NEVILLE: Jim, we are talking about homosexuality and celibacy here in the audience, and wondering if there any word or rumblings going on over there regarding those topics.

BITTERMAN: Well, several of the cardinals said before coming here, that they were going to try to raise these issues in the talks. Now frankly, I have a feeling that they will not get around to talking in any meaningful way about either issue simply because they are going to have their hands full trying to come up with some kinds of consensus on the policies they are dealing with on sexual-abusing priests in the United States.

Having said that, there is a opportunity tomorrow afternoon, a free-for-all session where the cardinals can raise any issue they would like to, so it may come up. It certainly came up at a press briefing today, when there was some talk about homosexuality in the priesthood and the difficulty there is in screening priest who are applying to seminary, for homosexual tendencies, and that sort of thing.

So it is in the background. I think a lot of American Catholics would like to see those two issues brought up to the front burner. It is not something that the Vatican really wants to talk about. They have made it clear in the policy, and the pope made it clear, his policy on celibacy was not going to change.

He talked to Nigerian bishops here on Sunday and he reiterated that the policy on celibacy was not going to change, so I think that while there are those in the United States who would like to leverage the sex abuse crisis into a wider discussion of sex abuse, and sexual topics in general, including celibacy and homosexuality, I don't think it is going to happen at these meetings.

NEVILLE: Jim Bitterman, thank you very much for that update from Rome. OK, audience. You heard that it looks like the pope won't change his mind on the rules on celibacy. Catholics in the house, what do you think about that? Raise your hand, let me come to you. Any response to that? All right, Mary Louise, I would like to ask you about that. What do you think about that, the whole idea of, hey, celibacy is here to stay?

HARTMAN: Some form of celibacy should probably continue in the church, because some people are called to live a celibate life. But we feel that it should be made optional. There is no reason why a priesthood of married and unmarried people can't function very well in the future.

NEVILLE: You know, Patrick, before the break, we -- you said, OK, the pope has finally spoken out. He was firm.

And I asked you, what next?

SCULLY: Well, what next?

I think what will see is that the cardinals will come home with some marching orders, so to speak. The thing to look for for nuts and bolts exactly, A, B, C, D, what is going to happen, will come in June when all the bishops from the United States get together in Dallas. So, I would caution against unrealistic expectations as far as specifics when we come out of this particular week. This problem did not get created overnight. It is not going to be solved within a week.

And let me just say one thing about celibacy. The pope did not just say: "Guess what? Celibacy stands." What he said was: "Guess what, guys? Being a priest is not an easy gig, OK? It is hard."

NEVILLE: That's true. That's true.

SCULLY: "Celibacy is difficult. And if you don't want to do it, you don't have to do it. You take these vows voluntarily."

But the pope has taught that celibacy enables a priest to be the very best, dedicated priest that he could be. And there are thousands and thousands of priests that are able to do it and are great at it and should not be dragged down just because some break the rules.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: You are right about that, Patrick. And, also, they are saying -- a lot of the priests are saying now that their jobs -- it is a very difficult job.

SCULLY: Sure.

NEVILLE: And here is somebody, Michael, here from Alabama, who -- you are an altar server, so you are around priests all the time. I'm just wondering, do you feel differently towards your priests?

MICHAEL: No, ma'am. They are are the same as any other people.

NEVILLE: And do you feel like, oh, my goodness, now that you are hearing all this news, that you watch -- be careful what he is doing or be careful how you interact with your priest?

MICHAEL: No, because I have known him for a while and I know he would not do anything like that.

NEVILLE: Right. So, you don't feel that all priests suddenly are bad, right?

MICHAEL: Yes, ma'am.

NEVILLE: OK, thank you much.

SCULLY: Arthel, if I could just get in on that.

I think that is fantastic, because here in New York, we watched planes fly into the World Trade Center. And the next day, we were told: "Do not paint all Muslims or all Islam for the misdoings and the crimes of some." And I think this young Michael here is right on target. We do not paint the entire Catholic Church with a pedophilia or sexual abuse brush because some crimes -- and that is what they are, crimes -- for the crimes of some. I think that is fantastic the young man said that.

NEVILLE: Well, it is time for a break right now for the news.

Patrick Scully, Mary Louise Hartman, thank you very much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

SCULLY: Thank you, Arthel.

NEVILLE: And up next: Is sex between adults and minors always harmful? A controversial new book suggests it's not. Oh, yes, you're going to want to comment on this.

We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

There is a new book on children and sexuality that's causing such a stir, we thought we'd better take a look at it. "Harmful to Minors" isn't even on the market yet, but the author, Judith Levine, is already on the road defending it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDITH LEVINE, AUTHOR, "HARMFUL TO MINORS": My book, "Harmful to Minors," says that sexuality is a part of life. It is a fact of life for everybody, starting from the very earliest ages. Of course, in order for it to be a good part of growing up, kids need certain things. They need sexuality education. They need an open and positive atmosphere around sex.

But I think the people who are attacking me are doing so because, No. 1, either they believe that kids are not sexual or they wish that they would not be sexual. (END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: OK, well, that's one of the least controversial things Levine has to say about children and sex. And you can see her entire interview with Aaron Brown tonight at 10:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

OK, what we want to do now is introduce you to my next guests. That would be Dr. Drew Pinsky, an adolescent health specialist and host of the syndicated radio show "Loveline"; also, psychologist and radio talk show host Dr. Judy Kuriansky; and Dr. Leigh Baker, a child psychologist and author of "Protecting your Children from Sexual Predators."

Welcome to all of you to TALKBACK LIVE.

DR. DREW PINKSY, HOST, "LOVELINE": Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Dr. Judy, start with you. You heard what Levine had to say. Is she on the mark or off of the page?

DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, TEEN RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, Arthel.

Well, we can't pretend that kids do not have sex and put our head in the sand. On the other hand, we can't really encouraging them either. The major point is that abstinence-only programs that ignore that kids are having sex have not been proven to be helpful. We have spent over $300 million on these programs in the last five years. And the WHO has done studies that show that, when you put all the research together, there is nothing that shows that talking about sex makes kids go out and do it.

So, we have to keep our head out of the sand, be realistic, not encourage them, but not pretend that it is not going on either.

NEVILLE: Dr. Leigh -- do I call you Dr. Leigh as well?

LEIGH BAKER, AUTHOR, "PROTECTING YOUR CHILDREN": That's Fine. That's Fine.

NEVILLE: OK. What do you think?

BAKER: Well, I think that the point that she makes in her book that children are sexual is true. I think it is very hard for some people to see that and understand that.

But children's sexuality is completely different than adult sexuality, just as children's play is different than adult play. And sexuality develops over a period of time. And exposing children to adult sex before they are ready makes them prematurely sexual and can do considerable emotional damage.

NEVILLE: Dr. Drew, what do you think about that?

PINSKY: I could not agree more with both Judith and Leigh. This is exactly the case.

The problem with the book, really, is that it confuses many different issues. They start -- at one point, she's talking about sex with children. Another point, she is talking about later adolescents with younger adolescents, middle adolescents with adults. These are terribly, terribly different phases of developments. And each has completely different implications when they interact in overt sexual ways with adults.

Some of the things she quotes in her book as the facts are sort of scary. She says, for instance, she sort of tosses off that one of the clinicians she spoke to states that the incidence of people who have pedophilia as their primary sexual focus hovers around 1 percent in America. Now, that would be two million people. That is a pessimistic estimation by any estimation and one that would be very, very serious. If we said there was any other condition that affected two million Americans, we would be very upset about that.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

PINSKY: So...

NEVILLE: And, Dr. Drew, excuse me. I want to go ahead and read some excerpts from the book.

But first, let me let Todd jump in here.

TODD: Well, yes, I think one of the major problems with young children, their sexuality, is affected -- physically and hormonally, they are developed to feel this way and start to think about this. And even back in older times and different cultures, women were getting married at 13 or 14.

NEVILLE: That's true, and having kids and married at 16 years old.

Now, do you have kids, Todd?

TODD: No, I don't.

NEVILLE: Do you think that young people are sexual beings and that they should explore that? Or how do you feel about this?

TODD: I think that they are physically prepared, but emotionally, they are not.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Arthel.

NEVILLE: Yes, go ahead, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: It's interesting, though, that you, even in talking about this question, you immediately sort of put marriage at 16 in the olden days, so to speak.

NEVILLE: Right.

PINSKY: And, in fact, that is probably the case; 16 is very different than 14 in terms of the neurocognitive development of the individual.

NEVILLE: True. True.

Let's pull some excerpts now. Regarding pedophilia, Levine says: "Indeed, say some psychologists, there may be no such thing as a typical pedophile, if there is such a thing as pedophilia at all." Moving on, she says: "Pedophilia can be renounced in the medical language we now sue to describe this sexual proclivity. It can be cured. Indeed, contrarian to politicians' claims, the recidivism rates of child sex offenders are among the lowest in the criminal population."

PINSKY: Again, she confuses two issues here.

NEVILLE: Exactly, because I have always understood and heard that pedophilia is indeed very difficult to cure.

PINSKY: It is difficult. It is akin to other addictions and compulsions. In fact, the National Society on Sexual Addiction and Compulsivity deals with this on a regular basis. And their call to people with these proclivities is: "Please come for treatment before you do harm somebody else."

And, yes, this can be put into remission. But a cure is like asking an alcoholic to be cured.

BAKER: That is true.

And, in particular, to talk about it as a cure is a lifetime commitment and dedication to the treatment for a pedophile to be seen as rehabilitated. It means lifetime commitment and an open admission of what he or she has done.

NEVILLE: Dr. Judy?

KURIANSKY: It might be interesting for people to understand what this so-called cure is.

A lot of times, it is what we call an avoidance therapy, where the pedophile is put in a chair and given shocks when they see a picture of a child. Or they may do something that is even more controversial, that used to be the big treatment for pedophiles. And that is, they would have the person masturbate while they are looking at a picture of a child to the point where it becomes a very unpleasant, disgusting and painful experience.

This may be shocking for some people to hear, but those were some of the treatments that have been done. Now they do...

PINSKY: Historically, that is true, yes. But now it is really -- the 12-step model is really the primary focus of treatment. KURIANSKY: And now much more, there are attempts to get the pedophiles together, to have them sometimes even confront the families and even the youngsters, and to have them understand that this is something that is inappropriate, and have a more intellectual understanding.

But this is why it is so difficult to so-called change or cure.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: I want to jump in for a second because, now, Levine also says, as a society, we are overly fearful of pedophilia.

PINSKY: Well, this is the concern I had, Arthel, is that she takes a medical health and well-being issue and makes an ideological hot potato out of it.

If she really is concerned with what is and is not good for people, put the ideologies aside. Throughout her book, she refers to conservatism and repression. Look, what works for people? What is good for people? What is healthy and what isn't? And she does not talk to clinicians very much in her book at all.

BAKER: Well, one of the things that is important in looking at her point is that the media does make pedophilia and sex abuse issues seem horrific and overwhelming. And they capitalize on it at the same time as they are trying to heal it. So, I think it is important that parents understand that it is not only the images we see on TV and hear on the radio, and understand how it exists in real life.

NEVILLE: Dr. Leigh, you are making me say "Hmm." But I've got to take a break right now.

BAKER: OK.

NEVILLE: So, we will talk more in a moment.

Maybe a simple way to drop the crime rate is simply lower the age of consent. If a 12-year-old in Holland can decide whether to engage in sex, why can't a 12-year-old in the U.S.? We're going to look at that and find out what else is in this book after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody. We're talking about Judith Levine's "Harmful to Minors."

And I have a young lady in the audience, Dana.

I would like you to stand up and tell me what you told me in the break.

DANA: OK.

See, a bunch of us 12-year-olds don't even care about sex right now. It is just not something we pay attention to. We are more interested in our hair and what we are going to do in the next day and if we are going to be, like, popular and all. And we don't care if that's happening. We don't pay attention to it.

NEVILLE: Well, good for you. And can I tell you that your hair is cute? And you will be popular because you have been on television now. And thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate that.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: And, Dawn, the mom, if you can stand up for me. And you had another comment that was interesting as well.

DAWN: Her book is aptly named: "Harmful to Minors." The whole concept is harmful to minors. Education is what is important right now. And these students need to know -- from early childhood, they need to know that the body is fine. It is what it was created for, but not until they are old enough to have enough brain to know what it is all about.

NEVILLE: But see, now, that's an interesting point, because now I would like to go to the panelists and talk about this.

Now, what is the appropriate age to talk about sex with your children, especially seeing that we are admitting that kids are growing up faster these days than...

KURIANSKY: Arthel, it is important to address the issues about sex from the time kids are young, and be age appropriate. That is what is important here.

You don't start talking about adult-type sex or intercourse-type things or the sex as we typically think of it with younger kids. You talk about their changing bodies. The most important thing to talk about is self-esteem. And I am sure -- Drew does a lot about this and would agree with this.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Absolutely.

KURIANSKY: If you build kids' self-esteem, if you give them that sense that they are important, that they are meaningful, that they can make their own decisions, that you respect them, that you honor them, that is what is going to make our kids healthier. So shift the emphasis from sex to their feelings about themselves.

NEVILLE: OK, now, listen to this, speaking about -- jumping off what you said, we are going to look at another excerpt from the book.

Levine says that: "Teens often seek out sex with older people. And they do so for understandable reasons. And older person makes them feel sexy and grown up, protected and special. Often, the sex is better than it would be with a peer who has as little skill as they do." And moving on, she says regarding the need to evaluate the legal age of consent: "The Dutch Parliament in 1990 made sexual intercourse for people between 12 and 16 legal, but let them employ a statutory consent age of 16 if they felt they were being coerced or exploited."

BAKER: Right.

Well, let me speak to that, because I think it is really important in that many victims -- and I have dealt with victims over 16 years -- many victims will talk about the excitement and the pleasure and the stimulation that they had received from being in a relationship with an older person.

But, inevitably, it was not emotionally healthy for them. And it took them away from their peers. And it made them feel very guilty and conflicted. And it also set the stage for further relationships. And they were in no way emotionally ready to handle such a demanding relationship.

PINSKY: Yes, I agree with you. And it's not so much the feelings and the experience of the individual who -- the young person. It is: Who is the perpetrator? Think of that 30-year-old who is reaching down and dating a 16-year-old. That is an exploitive person...

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

BAKER: That's true.

PINSKY: ... who doesn't really care about this person at all and sets up a disturbed dynamic for modeling relationships in the future.

Also, I almost jumped out of my skin when I saw her reference to the Dutch government law, because in Holland, as opposed to this country -- in this country, the average age at which teenagers choose to begin sexual actively -- believe it or not -- is about 15.8. We are a heterogeneous, diverse society; 15.8 is our average. In Holland, which is a relatively homogeneous population, the average age is about 17.5.

So, the fact is, young teenagers are not having sex in Holland, even though they are an open society. So, this is not a big issue for them the way it is for us here.

NEVILLE: Yes, I've got Don here, Tom standing up. I've got Glenn (ph) on the phone in Virginia. So many people want to speak out on this subject. And I am going to take a break at the moment, but we have a lot more to discuss on this after this break.

Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody, TALKBACK LIVE.

I want to go to the phones right now.

Glenn, from Virginia, go ahead and speak your mind.

CALLER: OK. The lady that is promoting this book on children's sexuality obviously has never successfully raised adult children from childhood. I have. I question the capability of anyone that has not gone through it to have such great authority that they get a million-dollar publicity campaign on TV to promote a book which is of questionable value.

NEVILLE: Well, Glenn, we are going to stop promoting it right now, because we are out of time.

And I want to thank Dr. Drew, Dr. Judy and Dr. Baker for joining us.

Thanks to all of you for watching as well.

I'm Arthel Neville. We'll be back again tomorrow, 3:00 Eastern, with more TALKBACK LIVE. I'll see you then.

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