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Vatican Meeting Finishing Up

Aired April 24, 2002 - 12:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Now, at this hour, the Vatican's two- day crisis meeting is nearing its end, and the American cardinals are drafting a statement on sex abuse with the Catholic clergy. As we reported, there are signs the church is prepared to take action against wayward priests now.

With the latest from Rome, CNN's Jonathan Mann -- Hi, Jon.

JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, the cardinals who came from the United States came to the Vatican to meet senior Vatican officials and, of course, they came to hear from Pope John Paul II, but fundamentally, they came here to get some guidance on the crucial question, what does the church do with priests who are discovered to have sexually abused children under their care. What we are being told is this, that there has been no consensus among the cardinals, that, in fact, there were ranges of opinion.

On one hand, people who thought that with time, with therapy, with prayer and meditation, priests could be helped. They could recover through a process that the church calls conversion.

On the other hand, there are many people in the Catholic church and even some cardinals who say that the church -- the church must cleanse itself of these priests, they have to be put out of any position where they could hurt children, they should be put out of the church entirely, perhaps defrocked as priests because of what they have done. Those were the two alternatives. There was some discussion among the cardinals, there was no clear consensus, and then we heard a short time -- from one of the cardinals who was in on the meetings, trying to forge a consensus, that one had more or less emerged. Here is Cardinal McCarrick of Washington, and this is what he told reporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THEODORE MCCARRICK, CARDINAL OF WASHINGTON: When you look at zero-tolerance -- now, I am saying this, the other bishops aren't -- I am saying zero-tolerance prospectively, everybody is on the same page. If this ever happens again, that's it. Zero-tolerance for something that happened maybe 30, 40 years ago, never happened since, the man has never had a problem since, the people know about it, the people say, let's leave him stay, he is OK, we know him, then I would go case-by-case on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: So, the phrase is zero-tolerance. Some people are using a different one, one strike and you are out. They are both phrases that will reassure worried Catholics, but what do they mean? If you say one strike and you are out, do you mean that a priest is out of his home parish, do you mean he is out of any parish priesthood, do you mean that he is out of the priesthood entirely?

The details are still not clear to us, though the phrases will ring in our ears, but one of the other cardinals also spoke to reporters, and we heard a little bit more. Here is Cardinal Keeler of Baltimore.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM KEELER, CARDINAL OF BALTIMORE: I am not sure that the language of the baseball field is going to do the trick for us. What I say is, if there is a credible allegation of abuse, and if that allegation is sustained then by investigation, there has to be some investigation looking at it, then the individual who is accused should not be in a position, ever, to do harm to a little one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: A few days of meetings were building towards these kinds of decisions, and also towards the preparation of a final communique. We expect to see that and hear from at least some of the cardinals in about an hour and a half, and hopefully we will know more then about exactly what they have in mind for their return to the United States and the difficult job of rewinning the confidence of 60 million Catholics -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Jonathan Mann from Rome, thank you.

Well, the Vatican may be the world's tiniest state, but its power is vast, and Pope John Paul II has shown the world he knows how to use it. For more on the aging pontiff, we turn to CNN's Steven Frazier. Steven spent several years as a correspondent in Rome. Steven, great to have you with us.

STEVEN FRAZIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Kyra. A lot of people think when the pope makes a pronouncement, he chooses very elliptical, careful terms, sort of like Alan Greenspan when he is talking about the U.S. economy, but in fact the pope sees things in very black and white terms of right and wrong. He is a very moral person, people are wondering how is it he got so forthright. We spent a little time preparing a story that explains where he is coming from, and why he is this way, let's have a look at that first, and then you and I, Kyra, can talk.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRAZIER (voice-over): He is the most widely traveled, the most visible pope ever, and the journey of his life is no less remarkable, from a small town in Poland to his current position as spiritual leader of more than a billion Roman Catholics. He was born Karol Wojtyla in 1920, in Wadowice, Poland. Son of an army officer, and a mother who died when he was 9. The pope's childhood friends say his early life was marked by the sorrow.

BOJES TEOFIL, CHILDHOOD FRIEND (through translator): He stood out among us. Starting in fifth grade, we were smoking cigarettes and looking at girls, but he was very quiet.

JERZY KLUGER, CHILDHOOD FRIEND: He was not a coward, absolutely, but I never remember him fighting with anybody.

FRAZIER: Jerzy Kluger was one of Karol Wojtyla's best friends, unusual since many Poles then were anti-Semitic, and Kluger is Jewish. He remembers soccer games, Catholics versus Jews, his Catholic friend, a gifted athlete, played goalie for the Jews.

KLUGER: Usually, was not enough Jews, so somebody had to play on the the Jewish team. He was always ready, you know.

FRAZIER: When the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939, they targeted millions of Polish Jews for extermination. Wojtyla helped smuggle Jews out of Poland, and he co-founded an underground theater in Krakow, acting in plays that frequently dealt with oppression.

DANUTA MICHALOWSKA, CHILDHOOD FRIEND (through translator): He was really talented. He was wise, not only in the usual meaning of the word, but also in the artistic sense. He knew what to do with a word, he knew how to say it.

FRAZIER: While the Nazis were killing priests who opposed them, Wojtyla studied for the priesthood in secret. He was ordained after the war, and rose through the hierarchy. In 1978, Wojtyla was elected pope, the first non-Italian to lead the church in almost 500 years.

GEORGE WEIGEL, BIOGRAPHER: He doesn't look at the world the way a politician or diplomat or an economist looks at it. He looks at it the way a pastor looks at it.

FRAZIER: And so, he confronted communism in Poland in order to nurture a climate where Poles could practice their faith openly, channeling money to the opposition group Solidarity. Many believe he triggered communism's collapse there.

And he went farther than any pope to heal relations with other religions, apologizing for Christian persecution of Jews, recognizing the state of Israel. Revolutionary behavior, but in matters of morality and church institutions, he is traditional, quashing movements to ordain women as priests, to end celibacy for priests, and to permit priests to marry. Telling Americans not to be seduced by materialism, or by sex outside marriage.

POPE JOHN PAUL II: I ask you to have the courage to commit yourselves to the truth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRAZIER: Now it is easy, Kyra, to think that it is hard to understand where this pope is thinking -- where his thinking is taking him now, because the symptoms of Parkinson's Disease that fighting him makes him -- that he is battling now makes it a little hard to understand him, but actually, on this issue, he has spoken out as forthrightly as ever, he called those who abuse children in the Catholic church criminals and sinners, you can't speak any more strongly than that.

PHILLIPS: Steven, what an interesting piece, and you talk about his revolutionary behavior, so when you talk about going forward and leading to reform on these particular issues that the church is dealing with right now, do you see that happening?

Well, we hear a lot of questions about that from experts, especially some who have been speaking to us here at CNN, that perhaps these issues will open the door to wider reforms within the church, -- and those are words chosen by theologians -- reforms such as married priests, or women ordained as priests, but actually, it is more likely the fact that I think that this episode will take the pope backwards a little bit, back to an earlier day, a less confusing time in the church.

He pointed out before the cardinals actually arrived that these issues of pedophilia, and other problems concerning priests who abuse children and teenagers actually arose in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s. He instituted some seminary reforms in the 90s and there haven't been as many problems since then.

And what he is telling the cardinals to do is to go back to the period in the American church before these confusing days, created in part by Vatican II and the doctrinal changes of a liberalized church that occurred late in the 60s. He would like to eliminate the confusion, and say, Let's get back to basics here.

PHILLIPS: What about recruiting priests?

FRAZIER: Well, it has been hard in the United States. In the established diocese like Chicago and Boston, there has been a terrible falloff of priests. It is a different life, it is a very difficult life, it is one of self sacrifice in order to make you a better servant of the people in the parish, and a better servant of God, but it is an unnatural life. You live alone, you are celibate, you are chaste, in poverty, you give vows of poverty. These are all things that are hard to ask many Americans to accept. So, as a result, America has become the target of missionary priests. Many parishes are served by Vietnamese priests, by Irish, and I don't mean Irish- American, I mean people coming from Ireland, or from Colombia, Ecuador. Only a few parishes, and Atlanta is one of them -- I mean, diocese, actually are meeting their quota of new priests with American-born priests. So it is hard to say where this is going to take things, but it is a difficult time for the church in the United States -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: No doubt. Compelling insight from you, Steven. Thank you so much.

FRAZIER: Thanks. PHILLIPS: Comments of some church officials suggest that a subject long considered taboo is being discussed in those Vatican meetings. That topic: homosexuality within the Catholic clergy.

As CNN's Deborah Feyerick reports, some gay Catholics fear that they are being blamed for problems others may have caused.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, It began with a question about a possible gay subculture in American seminaries. A top U.S. bishop, now in Rome, saying perceived homosexuality frightens away some aspiring priests.

WILTON GREGORY, U.S. CATHOLIC BISHOPS CONFERENCE: It is an ongoing struggle. It is most importantly a struggle to make sure that the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men.

FEYERICK: Gay Catholics say, it was only a matter of time before they got blamed, accusing bishops of shifting the spotlight away from the real problem of child-molesting priests.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They don't know how to handle the frustration and anger that so many Catholics are facing, so instead of acknowledging the role that they have played in this, in the cover-up and in moving priests from one parish to another and putting more children and families at risk -- they are trying to deflect the blame off to gay priests.

FEYERICK: The church has never said exactly how many priests are gay. No one even knows whether officials keep these figures. But, Catholic experts believe gays make up 30 to 50 percent of men training in seminaries, leading to a larger question.

RICHARD SIPE, FORMER PRIEST: If they want to open this discussion, they have to be prepared for the revelation, for the knowledge, for the historical documentation that popes, bishops, cardinals, saints have been homosexual in orientation.

FEYERICK: Psychological experts and a key bishop say there is no direct connection between pedophilia and homosexuality. Still, some Catholic conservatives view homosexuality as a disorder, and insist it can lead to the sexual abuse of children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a problem with priests who have disordered sexual desires? No, not necessarily. We all have disordered desires, sexual and otherwise. The question is, is this person equipped to cope with these desires?

FEYERICK: A distinction made also by one bishop in Rome, framing the debate in another light.

FRANCIS GEORGE, ARCHBISHOP OF CHICAGO: The important thing in seminary formation is to ask whether or not a candidate is capable of marriage and family, because an ordained priest is a married man. He's a committed man to the bride of Christ.

FEYERICK: Philadelphia's archdiocese bans seminary candidates who say they are gay, even if they pledge to remain celibate.

(on camera): Do you see the raising of the issue of homosexuality as a way to deflect the attention from pedophilia?

PATRICK SCULLY, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Absolutely not. I think if we're going to talk about this crisis in its entirety, we have to talk about every aspect of it. And what we're seeing is sexually immature men are making it into the priesthood. That's a problem. Let's look at that. A disproportionate amount of those men are homosexual. We know that by the abuse cases that have been uncovered. That's not an indictment of the gay community. It's just a fact, so we need to deal with it.

FEYERICK: The Church has kept secret the majority of cases it has settled, and officials have never revealed how many victims were girls, how many victims were boys, or whether the accused priests were gay or not.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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