Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Talkback Live

Cardinals Conclude Meetings at Vatican

Aired April 24, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.

You know, for several days now, we've been talking about the priest sex scandal in the Catholic church, how it happened, why it was allowed to happen, and what the leadership should do about it. Today, American cardinals meeting at the Vatican discussed a one-strike and you're out policy for abusive priests and other church leaders.

We're going to talk about it, what it means and why one cardinal says he's not so sure the language of the baseball field is going to do the trick. We're going to be joined by some Catholics in Massachusetts, where Cardinal Law is under pressure to resign. We'll hear from some men who say they were once abused by priests. And, of course, I want to hear from you on this, especially if you are a Catholic. What's it is going to take to restore your faith in the clergy? Call me 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail talkback@CNN.com. Here's what else we have going on today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(voice-over): How are American Catholics paying for their sins of the fathers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of our hearts are ripped out, really ripped out right now because we are all affected by it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The rage now and the anger that American Catholics are feeling is against a hierarchy that they feel has failed them.

NEVILLE: What will it take to soothe that rage? American cardinals consider zero-tolerance, a one strike and you're out policy.

UNIDENTIFIED PRIEST: If there is a credible accusation, then the person, whether it be a priest or a school teacher, choir director is taken away from the position where any harm can be (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a little one.

NEVILLE: And some Boston won't be satisfied until Cardinal Law resigns. Find out what else Catholics want. Then beyond the Catholic church: Find out how the scandal has managed to put all religious leaders on notice. Do you trust your pastor, minister or rabbi?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(on camera): OK. Let's start with zero tolerance and how that is going to work. Joining us again today is Patrick Scully, director of communications with the Catholic League. Also with us is Mark Jordan, a religion professor at Emory University. He teaches modern Catholicism, theological methods and the history of homosexuality. His books include "The Silence of Sodom: Homosexuality in Modern Catholicism." And CNN Headline News anchor Stephen Frazier. Earlier in his career, he was a Rome correspondent and covered the Vatican. Welcome to all of you here on TALKBACK LIVE.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Arthel.

NEVILLE: Patrick Scully, I want to start with you. What is the one strike? Are we talking about an accusation, a conviction?

PATRICK SCULLY, THE CATHOLIC LEAGUE: That's a very good question. I have not seen a statement yet and we are waiting on the press conference. So I do not know the specifics of it.

I can speak to the general concept. If we are talking about one strike and you are out as it pertains to the sexual abuse of a minor, to me that it is kind of a no-brainer. Absolutely, the victim should be at the center of this discussion. We can't have it happen again. And if what they are saying is when it comes to sexual abuse of minors by a priest or anyone else, one strike and you're out. It's as simple as that.

But I will go beyond even that. Turn it over to the prosecutors right away. And if the allegation is true, prosecution, thrown in jail. Now as the ins and outs, the nuts and bolts and how exactly it is going to work, I have to wait for the press conference just like anyone else, and then we can get a full hearing of exactly what they are talking about. But I think everybody who cares about the victims of this case would, as a concept, support one strike and you're out when it comes to sexual abuse of minors, no question.

NEVILLE: Yes. And, Stephen, I'd like you to shed some light on this. I mean, of course, we are all speculating here what that exactly means at this point. But do you have any idea what this could possibly mean?

STEPHEN FRAZIER, CNN HEADLINE NEWS: I am not sure they have a complete idea right now. This news conference that Mr. Scully referred to is running a little late, the cardinals in Rome. We think it is because they are hammering out the final shape that the communique would take.

But in addition to describing or defining what the strike is, then they have to define what out is. Does that mean that you are defrocked and can't practice at all anymore as a pastor? Can you not observe your priestly vows in any other function at all as a counselor, or are you going to be a civilian now? All of this is what we are waiting to learn.

NEVILLE: Exactly. And, Mark, that's the question, one strike and you are out and then what?

MARK JORDAN, AUTHOR, "SILENCE OF SODOM": Right, and this is an old question in church history, whether it means exile to a remote monastery and being put on bread and water, which was a medieval practice, or whether it means being assigned to a desk job or something else. The other lingering question right now is whether it is only going to apply for the future or also apply to cases in the past?

NEVILLE: Well, apparently they are saying that we are talking about future cases here. But that is the other question, so what happens to the past cases and people who were actually accused, and rightly so, of abusing kids?

JORDAN: Right. And there, I think, the American bishops will still find themselves in the position of responding to civil or criminal cases brought from outside, because whatever this policy decides, there is still American law to contend with.

NEVILLE: Well, see, that's another question, Stephen. A lot of our viewers have been asking us, about the legal part of it, and we are going to talk about that later in the show. So I do want to save that.

But based on your reporting and history and knowledge of the Vatican, are you at all surprised at where they are right now, maybe that they are grappling with this and having a little bit of a hard time reaching some sort of decisive point?

FRAZIER: No. That I am not surprised about that at all. Neither am I surprised by the firmness with which the pope spoke when he talked about this as a crime and a sin and something that the legal system will take on, because he has always been very clear about what is right and wrong to his way of thinking.

And there is a little bit of thought that all of this would open the door to new reforms in the church. Maybe because of the shortage of priests, due to the difficulty of the priestly life, to be married priests or there would be a release from celibacy or that there would be women ordained.

Those of us who have spent some time with the pope in Rome think, no, he is going to take it back. Two days (ph) before the confusions that arose, especially in the American catholic church in the '60s and the '70s because of American popular culture and because of relaxations in some of the thinkings in the Catholic church because of a reform called Vatican II that was in the early '60s.

NEVILLE: Hang on for me for a second because I have got Clarissa (ph) who is on the line now from Tennessee. Go ahead, Clarissa (ph).

CLARISSA: Yes. I definitely believe in the one strike and you are out policy. And I also was -- would go a little bit deeper to say that even before anyone can take a position where they are going to be around children, they need to have extensive background checks, even if the government needs to get involved and is sure that that is done. And also, I feel that they should not go back to desk work or any other type of, you know, just regular situation. If they are found guilty, they need to be convicted.

NEVILLE: Patrick Scully, what do you have to say about that?

SCULLY: I would tend to agree with that. But I would caution one thing that I think Stephen was getting to, and that is we may not get all the answers to the questions that we are throwing out from this particular series of meetings. I think from the beginning, the Catholic League has been warning against unrealistic expectations, that meaning we're going to solve this problem that has been taking years and years and years to create over a series of a couple of days. What we may get is some general guidelines, such as one strike and you are out, and then all the details...

NEVILLE: But then, will they get to it in June, though, when they go to Dallas?

SCULLY: That's right. And then, once that is established, all the American bishops meet in Dallas in June and that is where you could see the finer points tuned in. I'm not sure. I am just saying do not be surprised it don't we get all our questions answered at this point. And also, as far as the press conference...

NEVILLE: But will that be enough for the Catholics? That is what I would like to know.

SCULLY: Well, I think it is a step in the right direction. I don't know if it's -- it is not going to be satisfactory in that it is not going to solve the problem. But it certainly is a step in the right direction, starting with what the pope said and moving from there, that we are going to have guidelines of how we're going to proceed from here. This has got to be a long process that's not going to be solved overnight.

NEVILLE: OK. We have to take a break right now. Then we are going to go to Cambridge, Massachusetts, where CNN's Jason Carroll is talking with several people involved in the priest scandal, including a man who says he was abused. We'll talk to him next.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody. We're talking about the Vatican's response to the priest sex abuse scandal. Right now, we're going to go the Brattle Theater in Cambridge, Massachusetts. CNN's correspondent Jason Carroll is there with a group of people who have a personal interest in decisions being made at the Vatican today. Jason, what are they saying?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Arthel, let me tell you who I have here. A number of folks, we've got some attorneys. We have victims here as well. And as you can imagine, everyone sitting here in the Brattle Theater, they all have an opinion about what is going on in the Vatican.

First, though, I want to start out talking about is that one strike and you're out policy. You all know about it now. Let's get opinions here. I am going to start here right with you, Bob. What are some of your thoughts on that one strike and you are out policy? It's sort of unclear if that refers to incidences in the past. We know about the future.

ROBERT SHERMAN, ALLEGED ABUSE VICTIM'S ATTORNEY: Well, I think certainly one strike and you are out is the right policy. If somebody is engaged in an act of sexual abuse, they can't be part of the moral leadership of society and part of the Catholic church.

The question you ask is a good one. What happens to the people in the past? Do they get an intentional walk here? Are they allowed to just continue on? Certainly, that has been the policy of the past and I think that in order to deal with this issue, you need to address those people in the past that have been abusing victims and make sure that they are brought to justice as well.

CARROLL: And I'm going to move right over here. You are a victim. You were a victim. Give me some of your thoughts about this zero-tolerance type of policy that has been proposed?

ROBERT BARTLETT, ALLEGED ABUSE VICTIM: I think it is a good step in the right direction by the church. But having it apply to only the future cases is not sufficient.

CARROLL: Not sufficient?

BARTLETT: No. Those that have occurred in the past -- as Bob just indicated, some justice has to be done. It has to be applied across the board.

CARROLL: Is everyone in agreement with that? Let me step back here.

MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, ALLEGED ABUSE VICTIM'S ATTORNEY: I think it has to go a step further.

CARROLL: How so?

GARABEDIAN: One strike and you are out, that's fine. But how did you get to that one strike point. There has to be a sifting process of how did these people got into the archdiocese, into the churches, first of all. How did they get there? Why did they get to one strike? That has to be prevented because it is too late for that one child upon that one strike.

CARROLL: Many people have called Boston the epicenter of this scandal. Namely, there have been a lot calls for Cardinal Bernard Law to step down, to resign. That was not brought up during the meetings at the Vatican. Are you disappointed by that? What are some of your thoughts on that, Patrick?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I think that the only way to take a good, good step forward in the right direction is you take a look at all of the people that were involved with the scandal and you start cleaning house and you start from the top. We need new leaders.

CARROLL: So you're saying Cardinal Law should step down?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Should step down. It just shows, you know, that he was very negligent by letting these incidents take place, when 18 years ago he knew.

CARROLL: Some of his supporters say though that if there is going to be reform, he would be the man to do it. Chuck, you don't agree with that?

CHUCK COLBERT, "NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORT": I really think that the hierarchy needs to understand that there is a policy issue, and there is a leadership issue. And, I mean, from Catholics to non- Catholics all over this archdiocese, more and more realize that he really cannot stay.

You have a situation where Catholic Charities is taking a hit of over a million dollars they have lost in contributions. It seems to me that someone's career is more important right now than healing, than social services and letting the archdiocese in this community move on. People are not rancorous about their desire for the cardinal to move on. They just -- it is sad. People are very sad about it, and they just see it has to happen as one of many other steps toward tolerance and a lot of other areas and openness, which is I think at the root, what we need in this archdiocese.

CARROLL: Let me get Ann in here. Ann?

ANN BARRETT DOYLE, COALITION OF CONCERNED CATHOLICS: No, I should let Bob speak to this actually, because I think that the cardinals leaving has become a crucial thing for victims to see, and just as the first authentic recognition that the hurt they have suffered matters to this church.

They have yet to hear anything that says what they have suffered really matters. Cardinal Law's leaving would not solve anything, but it would be a sign of respect for victims, and for once, victims should be first in this story.

CARROLL: Now, I also want to bring Bob in here for one particular point, because, Bob, you actually believe that Cardinal Law should stay and at least be given the chance to enact reform?

BARTLETT: With certain conditions, I would agree with that statement, yes. The fact is, this crisis has come to a head under his watch. He has always instituted policies that were in effect prior to his becoming cardinal, whether it would be Cardinal Medeiros (ph) or previous cardinals before that.

So given that fact that he followed the rules of law at that time, if they can produce to me a realistic gauge of policy, a verification policy, this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if you will, of victims being victims, lawyers, other clergy, all sitting on the same council, by all means give the man a chance.

CARROLL: All right. Thank you very much. I'm going to have to let that be the final word on this.

Obviously, a number of different opinions on this issue. We are going to keep getting opinions from everyone here in Boston on this particular story. Arthel, I do also want to point out that we did reach out to the archdiocese of Boston. We asked them if they would like to participate in our discussion. They said they could not provide us with anyone. But we do want to thank all of those who did join us here to talk out the crisis here in Boston -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: Jason, thanks a lot. Lots of interesting comments made up there.

And, by the way, we want to bring in Diane (ph), who is on the phone now from Maine. Diane, you would like to speak out regarding Cardinal Law. Go ahead.

DIANE (ph): Yes. I agree that he needs to resign because I think it would be a visible symbol. But it speaks to the system of the hierarchy, of the Catholic Church, and I am Catholic, that that protected what happened, the abuse that happened.

NEVILLE: Thank you, Diane, for those comments. And that seems to be the problem, the issue. Everybody who is speaking out, they are saying the problem is there is such a cover-up here. How do we get -- sift through and get to the top, to the root of the problem?

JORDAN: Right, Arthel, and I think that is the essential thing to keep remembering, is that whatever the individual failures were in this case, and there were many of them going back many years, it is the system. It's the system of clerical discipline and clerical secrecy that is the real problem.

NEVILLE: Yes, because it was just last summer, there was a memo of sorts that went around to the cardinals saying that if you know of any sexual abuse cases, you keep it quiet. The Holy Sea (ph) needs to know about it, but you keep it in house.

FRAZIER: Not just keep it in house. I think what is infuriating an awful lot of lay members of the church now is that in many cases, when these accusations were brought, the church would hire lawyers and attack the victim. It was almost like a rape victim being raped again in court. They would ask was this consensual sex? We're talking about an 11-year-old child here. How could he consent or not to a priest with all the power that a priest has in his light. Or did you enjoy the sex? These are outrageous questions to be putting to children or to victims of any age when these accusations are brought. It is upsetting there.

It is also upsetting that they accepted cockamamie theories such as one priest who said this was not a sin because there was no passion involved in the act. I mean, what kind of hair-splitting legalistic nonsense is that that was tolerated by what is supposed to be a moral institution? NEVILLE: You know, Patrick Scully, what is going to happen here? I mean, Catholics are looking at these leaders, they are losing trust. They are losing faith in them. What is going to happen?

SCULLY: Well, there's certainly a crisis of confidence in the people that sit in the pews and Catholics across the country. And what the folks had to say in Boston is not lost on anyone. What we need to do though is figure out how to fix it. And I think we're moving in the right direction with this meeting in Rome, with the statements from the pope. When everybody said the pope has never addressed this, he has never addressed it directly, well, he could not have been more blunt on this. He talked about every aspect of it...

NEVILLE: But you heard the one guy say that, yes, but you are talking about future cases. What about those of us who already suffer?

SCULLY: We do not know what the one strike and you are out is going to pertain to, what it is going to apply to. We do not know about that. This is rank speculation.

And also, let's not pretend that nothing is being done right now. There are hundreds and hundreds and thousands of files turned over to prosecutors. They are sifting through them now. And hopefully, we will get the guilty out and at the same time, we'll protect the thousands of innocent priests who now are sort of being painted with the same brush. They've got a lot of work to do here, but I think we need to keep things in perspective.

And I just might point out that in Philadelphia, you've got a bit of a problem where the district attorney, Lynne (ph) Abraham, has now impaneled a grand jury to look at every priest, whether he be dead, dismissed or retired. Let's not turn this into a witch-hunt. If you know of a priest or have an allegation against a priest that is backed and is true, go after him and get him out. But if you are going to throw all priests into the same group...

NEVILLE: Well, that's not fair. That's not fair.

SCULLY: ... you better start looking at teachers, educators, everybody.

NEVILLE: I've got to take a break, Patrick. And up next, homosexuality in the priesthood. What, if anything, does it have to do with the scandal abuse that we're talking about here. We're going to discuss all of that. So don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues after this break.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody.

Over the past several days, some Catholic church leaders have blamed some of the current sex scandal on homosexuals in the priesthood and in seminaries. Some have even said homosexuals should not be allowed to be priests. And right now, I would like to invite Douglas in Minnesota to speak out on TALKBACK LIVE. Go ahead, Douglas.

DOUGLAS: Hi, there. The first thing I would like to say is that I personally left the seminary myself because at the time when I was in the seminary, there was not a welcoming climate for gay people. I will say to the defense of the pope, and I am an openly gay man and I have a partner and live in Minneapolis, Minnesota, that unlike any other pope before, openly in the catechism, he has welcomed gay people into the church and he said that we should basically give ourselves to love and good works within the church.

However, the thing that is really most concerning to me is is that I see so many people trying to lump in pedophilia with homosexuality when gay people have existed and have done heroic works as recent as Father Michael Judge, who was an openly gay man, who died in 9/11. He gave his life doing priestly duties, doing priestly work and was very heroic, as we all know.

But for people that aren't concerned about it, that there is this whole current tone in America that anybody, especially some of the conservative factions within the church, to try to decry and say that gay people cannot serve in the priesthood or priestly ministry, you know, do good priestly work or cannot do anything that it is actually relevant to the ministry and trying to lump this in with pedophilia.

A pedophile is a pedophile. And personally speaking, over 2,000 priests that have I known and also nuns involved, I have never once known a pedophile. I was never molested. In fact, the priests that I told including my bishop when I told him that I was gay, they were very accepting with that. When I chose to leave the seminary, at the time, it was my decision to actually -- because I believed that not because I was pressured to leave for being gay. It was so much as that if you take a vow of celibacy before God, and I chose to take to leave because and not complete and be ordained was because for the simple reason that I could not fulfill that vow of celibacy and honor my church and honor my God.

NEVILLE: Well, thank you, Douglas, for being so open and honest with us here on TALKBACK LIVE.

And, Mark, what if anything does homosexuality have to do with this?

JORDAN: The only connections I can see are indirect. I mean, how how many times do we have to say homosexuality is not pedophilia.

NEVILLE: Exactly.

JORDAN: It should be the first sentence of every story. But, look, if you build a system for keeping secrets about priestly sex, it covers all kinds of secrets about priestly sex, whether you are talking about gays, straight, whether you are talking about pedophilia or any other sort of sexual crime. So the connection is not pedophilia to homosexuality. The connection is pedophilia system, system also covering homosexuality.

NEVILLE: And this what you have written about over the years?

JORDAN: It is indeed.

NEVILLE: Want to get Scott here. Stand up for me, Scott. And you have a thought or a comment?

SCOTT: Yes. Mine is you talked earlier about basically a church has a church law. And I was wondering why do they not recognize the law of the land? You know, if they commit a crime in Boston, why don't they basically turn them over right then? Why do they put their needs before basically the victims?

JORDAN: Great question, Scott. What we're seeing here is the residue of an ancient medieval claim by the church, which is that priests are exempt in most respects from local law, that priests who commit a crime should be tried by priest courts, not by civil courts. And the residue we're seeing in that is the Vatican policy issued last year which said that a bishop should report such cases primarily to the Vatican, if the good of the church required it.

NEVILLE: Right.

We have some other questions and comments here in the audience.

Here, sir. Sam, stand up for me.

SAM: My impression is that the church has only recently come to regard this as a crime, that they regarded it really as a sin, and maybe even as a sin that did not have victims.

And, as victims are coming forward, the whole understanding of it within the hierarchy has been transformed in recent months. And, even the pope, even the top leadership of the church has come to recognize that this has to be dealt with in a completely different way than it has been dealt with in the past: as a sin.

JORDAN: The crime of sex with minors -- especially priests having sex with minors -- has been, for a long time, a crime in church law, by which I mean there are specific laws against it. There are specific procedures for taking it up in church courses.

What we are seeing now, though, is the notion of its being a crime eclipsing, taking over from its being a sin, which is also theologically dangerous. Of course the church should respond to civil law, but the church cannot forget the fact that it is also dealing here with a sin.

SCULLY: Arthel, I would just like to make a comment about that.

Let's not let this get out of hand. The church has never taught that it is exempt from civil law or criminal law. The function of not turning these people over -- which was absolutely wrong, covering it up and moving him around -- was a function of not trying to bring scandal on to the church, in a lot of cases, putting the church's reputations ahead of the needs the victims. That is a given.

But let's not put the Catholic Church out as something that sees itself above the law, because there is no teaching that indicates that. And I think we are finally seeing people coming forward more and more. That is the right way to do it. But let's not misconstrue the reason why it happened.

NEVILLE: Sure.

Patrick Scully, thank you so much for joining us, as well as...

SCULLY: Thank you, Arthel.

NEVILLE: Sure.

Mark Jordan, thank you for being here as well.

And, Stephen Frazier, we are going to ask you to stick around.

We're going to be right back after the news to talk behavior, bad behavior and criminal behavior, in the sex abuse scandal. Where do you draw the line?

Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody. We are looking at live pictures. We are waiting for a press conference, the U.S. cardinals meeting in Rome with all sorts of information. We are all waiting to hear what they have to say.

And right now, we are going to go to Jim Bittermann, who is standing by live in Rome with a little update for us -- Jim.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, you are absolutely right -- not much of an update, though, I'm afraid. We are waiting ourselves to see what the cardinals are going to say here.

Basically, they are about three hours late coming down with a communique that they said they were going to have. Actually, we're expecting two statements, one a letter from the cardinals to American priests and another communique from the Vatican. And those two items, we think, are going to be talked about in the next few minutes when the cardinals arrive in the press room.

One of the things we are starting to think is that maybe the cardinals are having a little difficulty coming to a consensus in their public statement. During the day today, we talked to a number of cardinals. And there were some differences of opinion, particularly on the idea of the one-strike rule, the zero-tolerance rule for sex-abusing priests, essentially that any priest that is found, under civil or church law, to be guilty of sex abuse would be immediately defrocked.

There does seem to be some disagreement about that among the cardinals themselves, although one of the top bishops in the United States told us that in fact it seems that the group is heading in that direction. So, that is about where things stand. We won't really have clarification until those meetings start in -- well, we hope within the next hour or so. We are standing by over at the Vatican press room.

We expect that the cardinals -- at least some of the cardinals -- will come out and talk to members of the press, as well as the Vatican spokesman, Joaquin Navarro-Valls. So, we will just stand by and see what happens here. We hope to bring it to you live.

NEVILLE: Absolutely, a packed house there. Everybody wants to know.

And, Jim, of course, we will be talking to you later here on CNN. Thanks so much for that report.

And right now, I would like to bring in CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin into the conversation.

But, Jeffrey, before we start, I would like to share with our audience an e-mail that is typical of many we've received on this topic. In fact, Tracy in New York state asks: "Why are these men not being put on trial and thrown in jail? If it was any other Joe Schmoe, he would be locked away in a minute."

Jeff, that is the perception. What is the reality?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think you have to draw a distinction here.

If a priest is a pedophile, if a priest has abused children, then that person can, should and usually does go to jail, if he is caught. There is nothing about being a priest that protects you from being prosecuted. What I think you need to draw an important distinction here is, what a lot of people are starting to talk about is: Can you prosecute essentially church management, Cardinal Law? Can Cardinal Law be prosecuted?

NEVILLE: How high can it go? How high up can it go?

TOOBIN: I think, as a criminal matter, it is very difficult to prosecute those people, because the rule is, generally, in cases where you are accused of aiding and abetting another person committing a crime, you essentially have to intend that that person commit the crime.

If you are negligent, it is not a crime. If you're reckless, it's not a crime. If you're incompetent, it is not a crime. You have to really want that person to go out and abuse children again. And that I think is -- that's very hard to prove when it comes to someone like Cardinal Law.

NEVILLE: And that certainly does not sit well, though, with the people who are victims. And they are dealing with therapy and all sorts of other nightmares attached to this. TOOBIN: There is a lot of demand for vengeance out there, in the criminal context. But I think it is important to emphasize those kinds of things I was saying -- negligent conduct, reckless conduct, incompetence -- those can be the basis of civil litigation. You can sue the church. And many, many people are suing.

And the church is being forced pay enormous damages in these cases. So, I think it is not like the church is getting way scot- free, but I think you have draw an important distinction between criminal prosecutions and civil lawsuits.

NEVILLE: But I think that is what people are wondering -- and help me out here, Stephen -- I think a lot of people are wondering: Why aren't they being charged criminally?

FRAZIER: Remember that the thinking within the church was -- there was a predisposition to try to help the person who had failed in his difficult life, help the sinner here.

There was not as much concern for the victims initially as there was for the priest who had struggled with celibacy and all of the other difficult parts of that very hard life. It is a life of sacrifice, self-denial. They saw this as a human failing that the church would try to help them over rather than something requiring that they be locked up.

And, in a very practical sense, too, there is a shortage of priests. They were not going to just start looking around in a witch- hunt fashion to eliminate as many as they could find. They had work that had to be done.

NEVILLE: Jeffrey?

JEFFREY: Year,s it seems to me, sir, that is a strange way to show an example of being a leader of a flock. The Bible teaches that we should train a child in the way he should go, not abuse a child in such a sexually abusive way, to be an ambassador and stuff like that, and to be a leader and a guider, to deliver somebody from sin. We are not trying to bring upon sin in the congregation. We are trying to lift up, the churches, right now today. And I am not trying to defend nobody in this world in their own doings.

NEVILLE: Right. Right. You are a newly ordained minister, right?

JEFFREY: Yes, ma'am.

NEVILLE: Of where?

JEFFREY: I was ordained through (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ministries. I am now a member of Word of Faith Ministries.

NEVILLE: All right, thank you very much. Thanks for speaking out here on TALKBACK LIVE.

And, again, our audience is just loaded with all sorts of questions.

We are going to come over here to Corey and let you speak out.

COREY: I just wanted to know -- I have a question. Why doesn't the U.S. Justice Department, with enough evidence that they have, to step in and treat this like a regular crime, like it is? They were abusing children. And why don't they just step in and treat them as the abusers that they are?

NEVILLE: Are you talking like racketeering, perhaps?

COREY: Sure.

NEVILLE: I don't want to put words into your mouth.

Go ahead, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: Arthel, I think we have to recognize that abuse of children, any sort of rape, crimes like that, are almost state offenses. They are not federal offenses. And so, almost all of the prosecution of pedophilia is at the state level, the district attorney level.

And I think -- you know, it's interesting. A lot of times district attorneys are elected officials. And, historically, they have been very reluctant to want to take on the Catholic Church, which is A, very powerful, B, very popular, and C, very rich. That is starting to change now.

NEVILLE: So, in a nutshell, Jeffrey -- I want to get to the crux of this matter -- is it too difficult to prosecute these priests in these cases?

TOOBIN: It is not too difficult to prosecute the priests who actually do the pedophilia, the people who abuse children. It probably is too difficult to prosecute the cardinals and the higher- ups in the church.

NEVILLE: Hmm, interesting.

FRAZIER: Before you let Jeffrey go, though, what about the RICO statute that was invoked I think in Philadelphia, the racketeering, treating cardinals who covered up, like monsters?

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Exactly. They were discussing that.

TOOBIN: Well, that is a civil RICO suit. That is using the racketeering law to try to get damages, money damages. And I think those lawsuits have very good prospects of success, because it does seem that there was tremendous negligence on the part of management in the Catholic Church. But in terms of actual criminal prosecutions, putting cardinals in jail, I simply don't think you are going to see that.

NEVILLE: OK, Jeffrey, thank you very much for joining us here on TALKBACK LIVE.

And coming up next: Catholics aren't the only ones trembling in the aftermath of the priest sex abuse scandal. Clergy and houses of worship all over the country are responding to the wake-up call. We are going to talk about the domino effect after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

As you might imagine, Catholic priests aren't the only clergy walking on eggshells under the glare of the sex abuse scandal. Let's find out how the scandal is affecting other leaders and other faiths.

Meet Dr. Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Conventions, Ethics, and Religious Liberty Commission. He is an ordained Southern Baptist minister. Also with us is Rabbi Joshua Lesser of -- Bet Haverim?

RABBI JOSHUA LESSER: Bet Haverim.

NEVILLE: OK. Easy for you to say, Rabbi. All right -- Reconstructionist Congregation.

Welcome to all of you.

Let me get again, Bet Haverim. All right, very good. All right.

Pastor Land, I would like to start with you on this one. How has this affected your congregation, the way you do your job and how you interact with the members of your church?

RICHARD LAND, SOUTHERN BAPTISTS CONVENTION: Well, any time that you have a scandal like this that hits any part of the religious establishment, whether it's your denomination or not, there is a spillover effect on other denominations. And it has certainly, I think, hurt us, all of us who are in religious movements with the general public in terms of confidence.

But, in terms of our own denomination and our own congregations, we had a couple of high-profile child sex abuse scandals with ministerial staff in some churches in the late '80s. And that really caused us to focus on this. And we hammer it home in seminary every semester with our new pastor seminarians. And we hammer it home with those who deal with child care that this is a criminal matter.

It is a sin, but it's also a criminal matter. And they have a legal and a moral obligation to report this to the authorities if they suspect that it is occurring. If anyone related to our churches suspects that this is going on, they have an obligation, both morally and legally, to report it, because we must focus on the victim. The child must be the first focus and the first concern, and that it has to be reported to the authorities.

So, we talk about this. Every time we talk to our child care workers, we say you must do background checks on all of your people who work with children. And if you have any reason to believe, any suspicion that there has been physical or sexual abuse, you must report it immediately.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. I'm sure some of the Catholic people would feel better if that were the case in the Catholic Church.

And speaking of the Catholic Church, we have just received an open letter to American Catholics that was just handed out. And, in fact, what I would like to do right now is to go ahead to Rome with Jim Bittermann, because he is standing there, where, in fact this letter from Reverend Wilton Gregory has been handed out. He is the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

And, Jim, what can you tell about this letter? And what impact, if any, does it have among the cardinals?

BITTERMANN: Arthel, I am just actually going through this letter right now to see exactly what the key points are.

As far as we understand it, the three points that the cardinals have made here are that they have made considerable progress in dealing with the sex abuse issues so far in the United States, that they are prepared to strengthen policies and procedures in the United States to deal with sex abuse, and that it is going to be the main agenda item when the bishops of the United States gather in Dallas in the middle of June.

So, it does not look to us to contain any kind of specifics, the kind of specifics, perhaps, that have you been talking about in your program just now. We are still expecting, however, to see the cardinals themselves come out. And I suppose that is going to be one of the questions that is going to be asked. And I also think that we are going to see something from the Vatican at some point this evening in the way of a communique from the Vatican. We were promised that earlier in the day.

So, at this point in time, it looks like this letter to the priests of the United States from the cardinals basically contains those three points: the idea that they have made considerable progress in dealing with the issue; and that they are prepared to strengthen policies and procedures; and that is going to be the main agenda item when the bishops gather in Dallas in the middle of June.

NEVILLE: That's right, Jim. And, as well, they are going to make sure that they achieve the goal of protection of our children, is what they are saying here.

And, Rabbi, I wanted to know -- thanks, Jim, for that report, by the way.

Rabbi, I want to get in here with you, because I am very curious as to how your job is affected. Or has it been affected by all of this?

LESSER: I would say that it is affected, not necessarily just because of the situation. But I think that the way that we are trained today is to be very sensitive to the issues. Whenever I work with a child for bar mitzvah tutoring, for instance, we do it in a public, open area.

Or if, for some reason, we need to be in my office, my office door is open. My administrator's office is open so that there is no even sense of impropriety that someone could take.

NEVILLE: But you didn't have that before this scandal.

LESSER: I am actually new. I have been a rabbi for three years. So, already in our training, we talked about these kinds of things, because one piece of this issue that really is not addressed is this sense of power imbalance. A lot of this, it's -- people are saying it is a sin and it's a crime. But it's also an abuse of power, which I think is really important. And so, as Rabbis, as ministers, clergy, we need to understand that power dynamic.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. Absolutely. I have got some more questions for you.

LESSER: Sure.

NEVILLE: But I have to take a break right now. And we will continue on the topic in a moment. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INTERRUPTED FOR LIVE EVENT)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com