Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

18 Killed in Germ,any High School Shooting

Aired April 26, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: A couple tables for "The New York Times" and another full of reporters and editors for the "Wall Street Journal."

It has been a remarkable year in this craft. Many of the awards were won because of work done on September 11th and in the days and months after.

The still pictures taken that day, as we looked at them last night, were still stunning, and eight months later no less powerful. The pictures taken by Cheryl Diaz Meier who works for a newspaper in Dallas of the war in Afghanistan were absolutely remarkable.

And I'll admit, I got goose bumps when I handed an award to our vice presidents for CNN coverage of September 11th.

All of us in the room for a while sat silently and we remembered Daniel Pearl and other reporters who died this year in what has been in many ways and for many reasons the year of our lives.

In the day-to-day, reporters don't expect to be loved, but last night was for me, and I honestly wish you could have been there too, a reminder of the important work journalists do. It is a shame it takes something so terrible to bring out our best.

I've always loved this work. Last night, being in that room, with those men and women, I was proud to be considered a colleague.

We go on to "The Whip" and the day, the day today, and it is not pretty. We begin in Erfurt, Germany.

Chris Burns is there. A bad day, Chris. The head line -- please.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron. A day that people here will never forget, obviously. Over my shoulder, the candles still burning from mourners who left candles here on the steps of Johann Gutenberg High School. Candles, flowers and some notes, some saying just simply (UNINTELLIGIBLE), why?

Why a 19-year-old man could come with guns blaring, killing 17 people and taking his own life. How that could happen here in eastern Germany. Yet another school shooting. Another school massacre that people are still trying to deal with and still trying to find answers as to why it happened.

BROWN: Chris, thank you.

On to the Middle East. Sheila MacVicar in Jerusalem tonight, looking at what’s happened to the Palestinian security forces.

Sheila, a headline from you, please.

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning from Jerusalem, Aaron.

Well, there have been more raids on the West Bank, this time in the town of Qalqilya. That is as, again, President Bush has once more said it's time to end this, calling on Israel to get out, as it has become clear in the course of the last few days the damage that has been inflicted on the Palestinian infrastructure.

BROWN: Sheila, thank you. I'eve only known Sheila for 10 years, Yoko think I'd get her name right.

Back to the United States now. Maria Hinojosa in Philadelphia. United States cardinals gathered there after a long and important week for them.

Maria, a headline from you tonight, please.

MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A major catholic fundraiser here in Philadelphia, attended by six United States cardinals just back from the Vatican.

But most of the attention focused on just one, Boston’s embattled Cardinal Bernard Law -- Aaron.

BROWN: Maria, thank you -- back with all of you shortly.

Spent a lot of the day, it seemed like, trying to cut 90 worth of program down to 60 minutes.

Here's what made it in the final cut. We'll take their news from Germany. Only been a handful of mass shootings there over the last half century, so we’ll look at how they’re covering the story tonight.

A piece from Serena Alchell (ph), the Second Amendment Sisters.

We’ll hear also from the NRA president. Charlton Heston joins us a little bit later.

A young musical sensation you probably don't know. We'll meet the Sitar princess. She’s got talent in her genes, to say the least. That's segment seven tonight.

And he has been described as a cross between Dear Abby, Plato, and Mel Brooks. The aphesis, columnist Randy Cohen (ph), here to make some of us -- we won’t name names here -- feel a little, well, unnerved.

All of that coming up in the hour ahead.

We begin with a high school massacre in Germany.

The minute the images first appeared this morning, it felt like we were all being thrown directly back to April 20, 1999. It seemed hard to imagine, even after seeing the pictures of today, that this shooting could be even deadlier than Columbine.

17 were killed at a high school in eastern Germany. 13 of them were teachers. There was a secretary who died. Two children died as well, and a police officer, whose daughter birthday was today.

So now we can add a new name to the list of wounded towns. The list that includes Jonesborough and Paducah and Littleton, and now Erfurt.

Here again, CNN’s Chris Burns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS (voice-over): More candles. More flowers. More grief.

After yet another school massacre, this one worse than Columbine and as bloody as Dunblane.

A 19-year-old former student, expelled from school, came back, apparently seeking revenge.

As students were taking their college level exams at Johann Gutenberg High School, he burst in with a shotgun and a pistol, opened fire on his former teachers.

Among the 17 people killed, 2 students, 9 male and 3 female instructors, the deputy principal and school secretary, both women. And a policeman, one of the first to arrive at the scene, facing a hail of bullets.

Students recounted a scene of terror.

UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT (through translator): We heard a shooting noise and went downstairs. We could see a teacher lying outside a room on the second floor, shot and bleeding. But she was already dead.

UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT (through translator): We saw a gunman in the classroom, all dressed in black, with a gun. You could only see his eyes.

UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT (through translator): We ran out of the building. We just wanted to get out of there.

BURNS: Police commandos ring the school, helping evacuate the rest of the students. When they stormed the building, they found bodies scattered in class rooms, hallways and lavatories.

Police say the gunman took his own life in an empty classroom. Amid the grieving, officials are seeking answers. Why another school massacre? Why, just as the nation’s parliament approved an even stricter gun control law? Or simply why, as one mourner’s note asks.

Some officials blame lax gun control in neighboring countries like Austria and the Czech Republic. Other blames violence on TV, at the movies and video games.

Here, in former Communist East Germany, many youth are frustrated by a lack of opportunity and a lack of jobs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): And as crime caused a dramatic shift in the French elections last week, the massacre could also become a campaign issue in the September elections here.

Edward Shoiver (ph), who’s the conservative challenger to Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, said of this massacre, that it's an alarm for society.

Back to you.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Chris Burns in Germany tonight.

On to the Middle East, where Israelis forces were again on the move into the West Bank. The IDF swept through four towns, rounding up more than 40 people they said were terrorists.

The action came as the United Nations agreed to postpone the arrival of a fact finding team to investigate what happened in the Jenin refugee camp. The team will get there on Sunday instead of Saturday, after the Israeli government pushed hard for the delay.

Palestinians, as you know, say they believe a massacre took place at Jenin. Israel calls that blood liable.

In what must seem like a lifetime ago, the Bush administration decided it wanted to sit out the Middle East for awhile. The president and some members of his team decided the time wasn't right for full scale American involvement.

But things changed. September 11th and the events that followed, plus the increase terrorism and the Israeli march into the West Bank, in combination, sitting out was not an option.

But finding the right message, the right formula, has been elusive for the Bush team, and seems still to be.

Here's our State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One day after meeting with Saudi Arabia’s crown prince, a blunt message from President Bush that United States sympathy for Arab grievances will not come at Israel expense.

GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: One thing that the world can count on is that we will not allow Israel to be crushed.

KOPPEL: The president’s other message, aimed squarely at Israel, calling yet again for the Jewish state to complete its military withdrawal from areas in the West Bank it recently occupied.

BUSH: But it's now time to quit it all together. It’s time to end this -- well, we'll see what happens. It’s -- I know they’ve heard us.

KOPPEL: It's been nearly one month since Bush first called on Israel to pull its forces out of the West Bank, after initially giving tacit approval for its military operation.

BUSH: I can understand why the Israeli government takes the actions they take.

KOPPEL: Weeks later, the president’s message seems anything but clear. Critics say it's often tough talk towards Israel, not reinforced by tough United States action.

MARTIN INDYK, FORMER U.S. AMB. TO ISRAEL: The Israelis are interpreting the conflicting signals from Washington as meaning that the president actually is comfortable with the way in which they are conducting their self-defense.

KOPPEL: One of many complaints Arab leaders have made to the Bush administration.

Jordan’s King Abdullah gave Sect. Powell an earful during his recent visit to the region.

And Crown Prince Abdullah laid it out to President Bush this week, but the president is also under pressure from pro-Israeli interests in Congress and from within his own administration, pushing for unconditional support for Israel and its military operation to root out terrorist infrastructures.

INDYK: It seems that he's between a rock and a hard place. He's pulled in both directions, and it appears, for the moment, that he's basically paralyzed, in policy terms, by the conflicting pressures.

KOPPEL: Charges the Bush administration dismisses out of hand.

RICHARD BOUCHER, ASST. SCY. OF STATE: There can't be any doubt where the president stands and that our efforts are all devoted to helping him further that policy.

(on camera): But what remains to be answered is where that policy goes next and what will it include.

Among some of the ideas proposed, more shuttle diplomacy by Sect. Powell and others, a regional peace conference, and the introduction of international peacekeepers. What President Bush decides on these matters could help clarify what some say is a mixed message..

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Meanwhile, the Israeli march through parts of the West Bank has destroyed much of the infrastructure of what was the Palestinian Authority. And destroyed something else as well: the Palestinian security apparatus.

To the Israelis, this was never more than a militia, more concerned with killing Jews than arresting terrorists. Now it can do neither. It is one of the few things both sides agree on.

Once again, from Jerusalem tonight, CNN’s Sheila MacVicar.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACVICAR (voice-over): If you look hard enough, you can find a Palestinian policeman or two, doing nothing more sophisticated than traffic duty, in the quiet, oasis town of Jericho.

Jericho, in the Jordan valley, has so far been spared in the latest round of Israeli military attacks. There is still something of a police force here.

But in the rest of the West Bank, from Bethlehem to Nablus, Israeli incursions have essentially destroyed Palestinian security forces.

SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: I don't think we have any command center, any communication centers, any training center, any prisons, any police headquarters or intelligence headquarters or security headquarters.

MACVICAR: This is what is left of the brand new headquarters of the Preventive Security Force, the agency charged with combating terrorism.

It was those in charge of this force who met regularly with Israel’s intelligence chiefs. They were the backbone of security and cooperation between Palestinians and Israelis.

The last time they met: mid-March.

"Israel has been dealing with us as if we were an enemy," says Col. Dahlan.

DANNY NAVEH, ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER: I can't get into intelligence specifics at this stage. I can tell you...

MACVICAR: Without providing details, Israeli officials say the destruction was no accident.

NAVEH: We found, in front of us, Palestinian security forces that harbored terrorism and not preventing terrorism.

KOPPEL: Take a tour of the West Bank headquarters. Battle- scarred then occupied by Israeli soldiers, there is not a room undamaged.

The computer system, funded with United States dollars, has been destroyed.

The life blood of intelligence agencies are records, files, archives. This agencies files are scattered or burnt, nothing more now than crumbling drifts of ash.

(on camera): Palestinian security officials say one impact of all this devastation has been to effectively tie the hands of Palestinian police and intelligence officers.

Even if they wanted to do something, they say, they now can not. And not only do the Israelis not trust them, they don't trust the Israelis. And high-ranking security officers say they don't see how they can work together again.

SIBRIL RAJOUB (ph), WEST BANK PREVENTIVE SECURITY CHIEF: Mr. Sharon opened a new chapter, and I think now there is a sea of blood and hatred between us and the Israelis, and I don't think that they can repair this situation just through a visit or a statement.

KOPPEL (voice-over): In spite of the damage, and the anger, analysts say the Palestinians are now trying to reorganize their forces, because those forces represent whatever power Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority can salvage.

DANNY RUBINSTEIN, HA’AMETZ ANALYST: The security apparatus is the core. It's the substance of the authority. Without the security process, you don't have an authority.

KOPPEL: The United States government has offered money to the Palestinians to rebuild, and the assistance of the director of the CIA.

But Israel now says it has no intention of relying on any Palestinian force to help with security.

NAVEH: That we have to do the job. We have to take the actions to protect our own people.

KOPPEL: And that means, they say, if there are more terrorist attacks against Israelis, Israeli soldiers and the tanks will go back into Palestinian cities.

Each incursion, say Israeli officials, will be longer and rougher, and that will likely destroy whatever the Palestinians security forces have left, and further isolate Mr. Arafat.

(END VIDEOTAPE) (on camera): And further on the subject of Mr. Arafat, Aaron, when you talk to Israeli officials, especially those on the right, they make very, very clear that the destruction of the apparatus of security was not only not an accident, they make very clear that they also intend to have as little to do with Mr. Arafat in the future as they possibly can, saying over and over again, he is not a partner for peace -- Aaron.

BROWN: Sheila, quickly, one point on Jenin. Eventually, this U.N. team is going to get there. What is the is Israeli media saying about this? Is there a distinct message?

MACVICAR: The most distinct message in the Israeli press is that the Israeli government made a massive mistake by agreeing to this team, this fact-finding mission, in the first place.

The current delay -- the secretary general has agreed that the team should hold for 24 hours, which the Israelis have asked for in order to give the Israeli cabinet a chance to vote on this.

Israel’s cabinet is deeply divided. Cabinet ministers have told me that they are personally opposed to this, that this is a huge mistake, that this is just going to be a forum for Israel to be dragged through the mud, in their words, and that if there is a way for the Sharon government to try to get out of this, then they probably should.

They’re still negotiating terms. They want the mandate to be very carefully defined. And most importantly, they are asking for immunity from any future prosecution for any wrongdoing for any Israelis involved in Jenin.

BROWN: Sheila, thank you. CNN’s Sheila MacVicar in Jerusalem.

This has been an important week for both the Arab side in this, in the Middle East, and the American government. The arrival in Texas this week of the Saudi crown prince and his government, to talk to President Bush, to deliver, we are told, a blunt message that the Arab world wants from the United States government a more even-handed treatment of the situation in the Middle East.

We’re joined from Houston tonight by the foreign minister of Saudi Arabia, Prince Saud al-Faisal.

Your Royal Highness, welcome to the program. Thank you.

PRINCE SAUD AL-FAISAL, SAUDI FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: Do you believe that, as a result of these meetings, you will see a concrete change in American policy?

AL-FAISAL: Well, we were hoping that there would be a common approach to a complicated situation and a return to the peace process.

We hope that the efforts of both countries would lead to that. BROWN: Did you get any commitment from the president or the United States government that they will do anything differently than they have been doing?

AL-FAISAL: Well, we have a shared vision with the United States about two states, the Palestinian and the Israeli state, living side by side, in peace. And we are working towards that objective, in spite of the difficulties that are facing it.

This is the time that anybody who can do something to ameliorate the situation must do so, and must do so quickly, because the crisis is leading us on the precipice that we must avoid.

BROWN: Sir, let me try it this way, if I can.

If you could get the American government to do any one specific thing right now that it hasn't been doing, what would it be?

AL-FAISAL: I think the first and the most important aspect, and we agree on this, both our sides, is the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Palestinian territory, the reconstitution of the Palestinian Authority, so that it can work for the Palestinians in the economic, political and security spheres, so that it can carry its responsibilities according to the agreements.

These are issues that we are tackling.

BROWN: Do you believe that when President Bush has called on the Israelis to withdraw, he hasn't really meant it, or hasn't been forceful enough in pressuring the Israelis?

AL-FAISAL: Well, not the way I heard it. I heard him speak very forcefully. I think it is a tragedy that Israel has summarily shunned the call of the president, in spite of the fact that the United States and the president has stood by Israel and has stood by the security of Israel, and has supported Israel in every way that they can support.

BROWN: And, sir, as you know, many Americans think your country, other Arab countries, have not done enough on your side of the line to combat terrorism. How would you respond to that?

AL-FAISAL: I think it's not true.

The government of the United States, which is leading the war on terror, is satisfied with what we are doing. We are doing everything that is within our capability of doing.

We are exchanging information, squeezing the terrorist organizations of resources to mount any operation, and in every other way we are cooperating with the international effort to do so.

BROWN: And so, sir, would you say these meetings were successful meetings or that it was just a kind of quiet get-to-know-each other meeting?

AL-FAISAL No. I think, on the contrary -- just take, as an example, the time that was spent together. It indicated the seriousness of the discussions, indicated the seriousness and the concentration that was put on these efforts -- and by the way, they are continuing.

We are in contact with each other today, and we will be in contact with each other tomorrow, hopefully to finally find the conclusion and agreement of how best to approach settling this issue and moving toward peace again.

BROWN: Your Royal Highness, thank you for your time. I know it’s been a long day. We appreciate it very much.

AL-FAISAL: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: Thank you sir, very much. Travel safely.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, the day that changed a German town forever.

How the shooting is being reported in Germany a little later, their news tonight.

But first, cardinals gather again -- this time in Philadelphia -- and there is as much controversy as ever.

This is NEWSNIGHT on Friday from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Being as nosey as we are, we would certainly be interested in hearing the private dinner conversation at this one.

United States cardinals are in philadelphia tonight, a fundraising dinner for Catholic University.

The gathering follows this week’s meeting in Rome, which seemed to do exactly what the Catholic church did not want them to do, which is create more controversy, make many more Catholics angry over the priest abuse scandals.

Maria Hinojosa is in Philadelphia for us tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HINOJOSA (voice-over): The American cardinal’s dinner, a big annual Catholic fundraiser; for 13 years now, raising about $1 million every year.

But the atmosphere this time quite unlike any other. The security so tight, it might have been fit for a president, a sign that things are far from normal in the Catholic church.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Cardinal Law, are you being promoted to the Vatican?

HINOJOSA: A cardinal dodges the media and rushes away. At a news conference, a series of denials; first, that Boston’s Cardinal Bernard Law will be transferred to the Vatican.

REV. DAVID O’CONNELL, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: There is no plan whatsoever that he be replaced and be moving to Rome in June, or any time in the near future.

HINOJOSA: Then that any divisions among the headstrong cardinals even exist.

CARDINAL ANTHONY BEVILACQUA, ARCHBISHOP OF PHILADELPHIA: We all are agreed that no priest guilty of even one act of sexual abuse of a minor will function in any ecclesial ministry or any capacity in our diocese.

HINOJOSA: Outside, religious protestors gathered early, asking for everything from ordaining women to marriage for priests, to Catholic sisters pleading to punish abusive priests.

MAUREEN TURLISH: I believe in the sacramental life of the church. I believe in going to confession for one's sins and doing penance. But in a criminal justice system where people have been violated, you have to go through the criminal court system.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HINOJOSA: And Philadelphia’s Cardinal Bevilacqua today making a statement that could perhaps add to this controversy, saying he thinks gay men should be screened out of priesthood because they are more at risk for being sinful -- Aaron.

BROWN: Maria -- you end on a zinger there. Thank you very much, Maria Hinojosa, in Philadelphia tonight.

Up next on NEWSNIGHT, how German’s saw the tragedy at the school in Erfurt today. It’s their news on NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are some stories that initially, at least, defy our ability as reporters to process them. September 11th was a day like that. Things happening for which none of us had any real reference point.

And so we find ourselves in moments like that at a loss of how to adequately describe what we see and hear, so we just kind of muddle through it, trying to get our bearings, hoping to get it right.

On a much lesser scale, reporters for German today had such a day today.

While Americans, reporters and non-reporters, know far too much about school shootings, the Germans do not. That is just one thing to note in their news tonight. German TV coverage of what some German’s thought was just an American problem.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (through translator): Good evening, and welcome to our special broadcast.

Whenever a student goes on a shooting spree in Germany, confusion and bewilderment increases in our society. Nobody knows for certain how this happens, how somebody completely loses it and drags other people to their death. Also when one of these acts happen, the level of brutality increases. Seventeen people gave their lives today because a 19-year-old didn't know how to deal with his frustration.

Who's to blame? This is a question that nobody can completely answer. But what is clear is that it is an occurrence that is happening more and more. But today's shooting spree is one that surpasses every previous shooting. The Guttenberg gymnasium will never be the same.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just can't believe it. It's inconceivable. A blood bath of this proportion has never happened before. The 26 of April has changed Erfurt forever. It's not until a quarter after 4:00 that the police had this tragedy under control. Eighteen dead within a few hours. Teachers, students, a police officer and finally the shooter, who killed himself.

At least four people were brought to safety. The police and special forces continue to patrol and maintain a ring of safety around the school. Rumors of a second shooter have not been confirmed, but the police are not taking any chances. It was a little bit after 11:00 a.m. as this drama unfolded. The school final exam in mathematics had just begun. The test was handed out. And suddenly, a former student opened fire. A witness reports.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of the students ran out of the classrooms and the shooter was following us, and shot a teacher who was next to me. She looked deep into my eyes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police quickly shot the shooter. The following hours, friends and relatives gathered to ponder what had just happened in school. After four hours, the police stormed the building. And in the hallways, bodies were lying around. Police checked each room systematically and led over 100 students out to safety. In the meantime, medical crews have set up tents to provide medical and psychological help. Many are in shock. For them, the horror of this tragedy has only just begun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A student who knew the shooter reported to NTV that she could not believe he could commit such an awful act.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's their news from Germany tonight. It is remarkably similar, isn't it, from the Columbines and the like, even the look in the eyes of the kids.

Up next, Charleston Heston, the president of the National Rifle Association. Plus the story of some college students who believe the right to keep and bare arms should be defended. Talk guns. NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well the argument isn't exactly new. It goes like this. Not only is owning a gun a constitutional right in the country, it is also a vital form of self-defense, especially for women. A gun, the argument goes, is a great equalizer. Doesn't matter whether it's 100 pound woman against a 270 pound man. The bullet wins every time. So say the Second Amendment sisters. The movement started when a group of women decided to make both a self-defense statement and a political one by buying guns and learning how to use them and starting a club. So Annie, get your gun. Or in this case, just go to Mountn Holyoke College. Here's Serena Alstohul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SERENA ALSTOHUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Meet Christy Cawood, the 21-year-old founder of the first collegiate chapter of the Second Amendment Sisters, a group that educates women about their right to bear arms as a means of self-defense. Perhaps not what would you'd expect from a junior attending Mount Holyoke, an elite all women's liberal arts college.

So you think the founders of Mount Holyoke very thought there'd be a Second Amendment Sisters chapter?

CHRISTY CAWOOOD: From the time we were founded, it was about, you know, women doing something that is traditionally been, you know, only for men. Or if not only for men, you know, predominantly.

ALSTOHUL: In the boundary.

CAWOOD: Exactly.

ALSTOHUL: We went to meet Liz, one of 49 members Christy claims on campus. We talked to her about the Second Amendment on her way to class.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't want to see it disappear because if I ever want to carry and they get rid of the laws, I’m not going to be able to.

ALSTOHUL: Right. No carrying in this campus.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No.

ALSTOHUL: No carrying in the state.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I wouldn't want to carry on this campus anyways. I don't think college campuses are really the appropriate place.

ALSTOHUL: Where would you carry?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just out in public I think really would be my thing.

ALSTOHUL: In a dorm next door, Sabrina told me that guns are part of had her family tradition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These two are actually from a turkey shoot that I went on with my family. There's really not a lot of aggressiveness about I mean, you're pulling a trigger. It's not like you are beating something up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guns are violent and there' sno other purpose for them.

ALSTOHUL: At a nearby cafe, we met up some other college women.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all consider ourselves feminists. And in no way do we empower ourselves with the use of arms. We empower ourselves in other ways.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're not fighting for women rights here. The second Amendment doesn't say all people can bear arms except females. They're fighting for something that I see is a lost cause and a regression.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How does having more guns make less violence? I've never understood that argument.

ALSTOHUL: And do you think there's a positive element to having them here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of difficult ideas. It's very, very important. And that -- it helps us associate with different view points and tolerate them and maybe also start to understand them more.

ALSTOHUL: But opposing views for good dinner conversation.

So why the chapter here? Why Mount Holyoke?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's an issue that's important.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even it's not...

ALSTOHUL: What's the issue?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...holding us back.

ALSTOHUL: What's the issue?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The issue is our rights to bear arms, that was given to us by our forefathers when they were...

ALSTOHUL: But you still have it. And no one's trying to take it away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But people are -- exactly people are trying to slowly nip away at it. We're here to show the other side.

ALSTOHUL: When dinner was over, it was time for the sisters to take aim at their cause. Where are we heading? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we are going down to the Smith and Wesson shooting range.

ALSTOHUL: And you guys visit the one you always go to?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, this is the one we're members of.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is us exercising our rights. And you know, we're doing it in a controlled environment. And we are doing it in a situation that's fun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I take a joy in being good at it. You know, it's sort of like when you do anything. You want to do it right.

ALSTOHUL: My heart's pounding just like being in here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's fun for us. It's relaxing. It's a hobby.

ALSTOHUL: How did you do?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not doing so well today.

ALSTOHUL: What's this one like?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Model 41. It's a .22 caliber so it's the least amount of kick. Would you like to try?

ALSTOHUL: Yes, Ill go for it. Why not?

While Christy was happy to lend me her weapon, she told me that none of her members own their own guns.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You put all nine in?

ALSTOHUL: Your parents all would feel fine with this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

ALSTOHUL: Oh yes? They'd feel good about it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, completely.

ALSTOHUL: Do you think about going and buying a weapon?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I do buy one, I'll purchase a revolver, I have decided.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's almost like meditating. You put so much energy and focus into one very narrow spa. And then when you hit the target, it's like yes, I did it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We ran the piece and invited our next guest because this weekend the National Rifle Association, one of the most potent special interest groups in the country, is holding it's annual convention. THe NRA president Charleston Heston joins us tonight from Reno, Nevada.

Good to see you sir. Thank you.

Charleston HESTON, NRA: Nice to be with you.

BROWN: It strikes me that in some respects, the battle has been won. There is no national effort these days, nothing in Congress, nothing out of the White House that should trouble you. Do you feel victorious?

HESTON: No. I do indeed, but on the other hand, you must not count your chickens before they hatched.

BROWN: What is it that gets your members riled these days, if there's no big issue out there?

HESTON: Well, to enlarge the membership, which is one, has been one of our goals for a long time. Any company or movie studio or anything like that, you want to get more people involved. And I think you mentioned earlier that one of the biggest and -- the biggest now and also the fastest growing group of which one of those do you want me to look at. Yes, OK. You put your finger down there.

BROWN: Keep going.

HESTON: One of the fastest and quickest growing groups of women in America are women buying guns for self protection. Most of them live in inner cities. They maybe have permanently absent husbands. And they're going to make a living. They make it usually working at night in an office building, which is a perfectly decent way to make a living. You can't fault them for that.

But that means that they finish their workday, work night at about 3:00, 3:30 in the morning. They have to get on the bus and take them within, what, 300 or 400 yards of where they live. But then they got to walk those last 100 and some yards with some kind of protection. And a pistol in your purse is quite a piece of protection.

BROWN: Is it in a time when there is not a great controversy over guns, and when the political front is relatively quiet, does membership fall off and fundraising fall off?

HESTON: Well, I think we've had an unusual increase in membership because of the last election, which was a huge win. And the president, the then president, was certain that he could bring down the NRA, which of course it worked just the other way. Naturally, all the members are very happy about this.

BROWN: We've about a minute, sir. I understand you're not very happy with campaign finance. You're joining the lawsuit to overturn the bill that the Congress passed? HESTON: Yes. I think it's a mistake. The bill of rights, those wise old dead white guys that made up this country, knew what they were doing. And the right to freedom of speech is the first of those rights. And campaign finance reform just wants to take it away.

BROWN: Simple as that, huh?

HESTON: Probably not as simple as that, but as simply as I can handle it in five minutes.

BROWN: Charleston Heston, it's always good to talk to you. Thanks for joining us. Have a successful weekend out there in Reno.

HESTON: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

Coming up later on NEWSNIGHT, we'll meet the newest disciple of a 60's icon. Up next, a word from your conscience.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Ever been to a party and you said to someone, "Who is that over there?" And they answered, "Oh, that's Diane, she's a cop." And while you know you're not doing anything illegal, you do start to worry. And all of a sudden, the party isn't as much fun. This, of course, is not Diane the cop's problem. It is yours. But it does explain why cops tend to party with other cops. And the same might be true of our next guest, Randy Cohen, who's an ethicist or at least writes a wonderful column in the Sunday "New York Times" magazine each week on ethics, helping people sort through the rights and wrongs of their lives. Some are mundane. Some are downright strange.

Mr. Cowen has a book out these days, "The Good, the Bad, and the Difference," sort of a guide to getting through thos tough moments in life and still being able to look at yourself in the mirror the next day. Nice to meet you.

RANDY COHEN, "NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE" COLUMNIST: Nice to be here.

BROWN: That's terrific. All right, here's the dilemma. I have a skill, a talent. I can read upside down. That is to say I walk into someone's office. There's a paper on their desk. I can and you really wouldn't know I was doing it, read it. Is that wrong? Or should they have just not left that document out?

COHEN: It's frightening, biologically. And optically, it's quite impressive.

BROWN: Thank you.

COHEN: Anything they have on their desk face up while you are there, I think they have no reasonable expectation of privacy, especially if they have worked with you.

BROWN: Well, it's pretty much now I have let the world know I can do this. It's going to be harder to pull off from now on.

COHEN: But if you could read through this paper, say, that would be wrong.

BROWN: Because it's upside down, they've gone out of their way to hide it. OK. And we should be respectful of that?

COHEN: Yes, I think we're respectful.

BROWN: Is there a -- you've been doing this for three years. Is there a discernable pattern to the concerns -- ethical concerns people have?

COHEN: There's certainly a most popular kind of question. Undoubtedly, it's do you tell? It's the duty to report question, where you yourself have not done wrong or you're aware of someone else doing wrong.

BROWN: So this is I know my neighbor's having an affair. Do I tell?

COHEN: Sure. Or your office mate is stealing office supplies or reading upside down, that kind of thing. Yes. And they're interesting questions because they involve the conflict between minding your own business, which is necessary for a civil society, and being indifferent, which can produce a very cold and indifferent society.

BROWN: And so, do you squeal on the guy stealing staples?

COHEN: Ooh, maybe not. It depends. You know, what it turns out to depend on for people often is what kind of office they work in. If they have a sense that they're generally treated fair, they tend not to steal staples. It's quite interesting. It's a kind of model for the just society.

BROWN: What if the question is, I know my neighbor is having an affair. I’m not going to tell his wife. But should I tell him I know? And it's really making me uncomfortable.

COHEN: I think that's kind of a cop-out. You know, I get this question quite a lot. And it's very difficult. If you don't tell the wife, you're conspiring in her deception. And I’m not so sure you want to do that. But if you do tell, you're tossing a hand grenade in there. And to tell the husband is to pass the buck, I think. I think you have to wrestle with that and decide.

BROWN: But why is it -- I mean, if the husband is a friend, and it makess you uncomfortable that he's cheating, why is it not profoundly correct to be honest with him and say look I know, Dave, this is going on. And it's affecting how I feel about you.

COHEN: Oh, that's fine. I was assuming the wife was the friend. I was identifying...

BROWN: No, no. COHEN: I think we learned something about each of us. I was identifying with the betrayed party. You were identifying with the betrayer.

BROWN: I wasn't identifying with anyone. I'm just trying to ask 3.5 minutes worth of questions. OK? I've given up what I intend to give up this. I can read upside down. People -- I want to go back to the pattern. People tend to write about others. The other guy has a problem.

COHEN: Oh themselves, too. But the most common question are these do you report questions.

BROWN: Do you think them make these problems up? Andn COHEN: I think not. "The New York Times" is quite fitting about this whole fact thing. And I call everyone. Yes, that's part of the rules at the paper. Anyone whose letter we're going to use, I meant to call and discuss it, like I'm a big detective. They can trick me if they wanted to, but "The Times" does have pretty crack crackjackers. They're quite good. And they follow-up on this, too. I think we were fooled once. Someone posed what turned out to be a hypothetical, but at least I don't think we've been since then.

BROWN: What are your credentials to do this?

COHEN: None.

BROWN: You were a joke writer, weren't you?

COHEN: Joke, you make it sound such an ugly word. I wasn't a hit man.

BROWN: No. Actually, something I used to do. So I don't.

COHEN: Did you?

BROWN: Yes, but that's another story. We're not going there either.

COHEN: When "The Times" decided to run the column, they had several people audition for it. And I think the others were genuine, trained philosophers. I was not.

BROWN: So they were out of work?

COHEN: Yes. But they were just hanging around the office. Why they chose me, I don't know. This is the mercurial thinking of "The Times." I think they were interested in someone who was a writer doing it. And I may be a kind of journalist of ethics. And there might be an advantage to my not having credentials, that you can't be persuaded by my authority. I have no moral authority. You have to be persuaded by my argument. I have to make a case that what I propose is the right behavior.

BROWN: Has it changed you at all? COHEN: It's made me more embarrassed.

BROWN: How so?

COHEN: I don't think I’m any more virtuous than anybody else. And I don't think I’m any more virtuous than I was when I started the column. But if you spend all day thinking about these questions, you're very aware of your shortcomings. That's not such a great feeling. I think self knowledge is overrated.

BROWN: I told you this when you came on. I'm going to say it on the air. It is the third thing I read. I don't know why I put up two fingers here. It's the third thing I read in the paper. I think it is a hoot, a wonderful idea.

COHEN: Oh, thank you.

BROWN: And you a terrific job. It's reason enough to buy the paper. And I hope the book does great.

COHEN: So nice of you to say.

BROWN: Nice to meet you. Come see us again every time we have a problem, which around here is every night. If you book a guest, the show runs long, is it ethical to cancel? Sometimes not, but we do it any way. Segment 7 coming up. A 60's icon handing the baton to the next generation. We like this story. You will, too. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally tonight, for the week there's a concert this evening in Ashland, Oregon, a terrific little town. A woman with millions of adoring fans, very young, quite beautiful. And we're not talking about Britney Spears, believe me. This is a musical prodigy who George Harrison admired. She is known simply as the princess of the sitar. And she learned her instrument at home from the master. Our story tonight from Satinder Bindra.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Recognize him? He's Pandit Ravi Shankar, a living legend who spent a lifetime popularizing one of India's most ancient instruments, the sitar in the west. Ravi Shunker (ph) became a cult figure in the 60's when the Beatles embraced him and his music. Today, Ravi Shankar is performing as vigorously as before, the music still appearing to flow from his soul. But he's 82-years old. And what about his legacy?

Enter Anoushka, a 20-year-old, who has lived most of her life in the United States. Anoushka is currently one of India's hottest sitar sensations. Not only is she Ravi Shanker's prodigy, she's also his daughter.

PANDIT RAVI SHANKAR, SITAR MAESTRO: I have many disciples, very good ones. They are famous, but the youngest one and my daughter and also luckily she's so extraordinary talented. BINDRA: Anoushka's. talent and fame are slowly spreading worldwide. Currently she's on tour in the United States and Europe.

(on camera): Here in India, Anoushka acknowledges many Indians come to her performances because she is Ravi Shankar's daughter. Still, she says, many people keep coming back to her concerts and continue buying her CDs only because they like her music.

(voice-over): Anoushka realizes one of her biggest challenges will be to try to step out of her dad's shadow.

ANOUSHKA RAVI SHANKAR, SITAR PLAYER: I know people do think that I must constantly be trying to live up to something or be as good as him. But I’m not. I’m playing because I'm having a ball. I'm playing because I love to play.

BINDRA: Anoushka's sights are now set solely on music. She's even put her university studies on hold so she can complete her dad's unfulfilled dream, introducing the sitar to younger westerners.

A. SHANKAR: The instrument is very difficult. But at the same time, very, very pleasurable to play, especially when you get to that point where you can do it well. It's just amazing.

BINDRA: For all her talent, Anoushka (ph) has far to go. As she herself puts it, what she's learning everyday from her father is music is endless.

Satinder Bindra, CNN, New Delhi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that's the program for tonight and for the week. Next Tuesday, we'll take most of the hour to look at race in America. Have a wonderful weekend. See you next week. Good night from all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com