Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Talkback Live

New Secret Documents Outraging Catholics; Was President's Meeting With Saudi Crown Prince Successful?

Aired April 26, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

It is Friday, which means it is free-for-all Friday, and we have details about those secret writings that have outraged so many Catholics in Boston's archdiocese. You can get in on the free-for-all Friday by just calling 1-800-310-4CNN or, of course, you can e-mail at talkback@cnn.com.

Now, to help you get ready for today's show, let's take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(voice-over): The Boston archdiocese uncovers shocking documents detailing what a priest says he was doing with children and his alleged involvement in the North American Man/Boy Love Association.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the writings of a perverted monster who was sent out into the field unsupervised to be with alienated youth, with children.

NEVILLE: How much did Cardinal Law know about Father Paul Shanley, and would the cardinal's transfer to the Vatican be a reward or punishment?

Also, what do you think President Bush and Saudi Arabian Prince Abdullah really talked about at the ranch yesterday?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We discussed the need for Arab states to condemn terror, to stop incitement of violence and as part of a long-term peace, to accept Israel as a nation and a neighbor.

NEVILLE: What do the Saudis want from the U.S. and what will they do if they don't get it?

And with so many willing women, how does a bachelor make up his mind?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are, you know, firing on all cylinders. We're thrilled to be with each other.

NEVILLE: Would you play the bachelor game?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(on camera): OK. We're going to get started though by finding out more about the latest twist in the priest abuse scandal in the Catholic church. CNN correspondent Jason Carroll is covering this story in Boston. Jason, good afternoon, first of all, and tell me about those documents. And did they send shock waves through Boston?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I have to tell you, Arthel, that remember, this is -- what we saw was the second wave of documents that came through regarding the Shanley case. A few weeks ago, the first round of these documents came out, some 800 documents, and that's really what got people angry.

Yesterday, the archdiocese of Boston released 800 additional documents regarding Father Paul Shanley, really some damaging material. These documents included allegations, more allegations about Shanley and his affiliation with NAMBLA, the North American Man/Boy Love Association, and these documents are also more warnings that the archdiocese allegedly received from people about Shanley and his behavior. Also included in those documents were some of Shanley's thoughts on how he would counsel troubled young people about drugs. At one point, Shanley is quoted in some of his personal writings basically saying that he -- how he would teach some of these young children how to shoot up. It was really some quite damaging, damaging material.

NEVILLE: And, Jason, do we know if Cardinal Law was -- if he had seen these documents long before and still just kept transferring Shanley to a parish -- from parish to parish?

CARROLL: Well, the previous documents seemed to suggest that many who were within the archdiocese of Boston knew about some of these allegations that were circulating about Father Shanley, and that he was moved from parish to parish within the archdiocese of Boston, and, in fact, at one point, moving Shanley out of the state of Massachusetts to California to a church there without church officials in California knowing about his past.

And these new wave of documents, there doesn't seem to be a clear, at least at this point. Now remember, there are 800 pages and the attorneys for some of the victims still need time to sort of comb through a lot of these documents. But at this point, there doesn't seem to be any sort of direct link between Cardinal Law and his knowledge about Shanley's past in this wave of documents. But remember, we have a set of 800 documents from before which seemed to show that there was some sort of knowledge.

NEVILLE: Now, Jason, you mentioned Cardinal Law and "The Boston Herald" is reporting that perhaps Cardinal Law will be moved to the Vatican. Now is this a promotion or is it punishment?

CARROLL: Well, I want to emphasize that that is just a report. "The Boston Herald" is reporting that Cardinal Law will be reassigned to a post at the Vatican, so he will not then have to be deposed with regards to the Shanley case. I did speak to the archdiocese of Boston about this a little earlier today, spoke to a spokeswoman, Donna Morrissey. She said that she had not read the report.

But I want to point something out. She had indicated that this report was using unnamed sources. And she told me she said you really want to be careful about looking at some of these unnamed sources.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. Hey, Jason, you know, you did a great job with those victims here on TALKBACK LIVE for us this week. I'm wondering if you have had a chance to talk to any of them since this latest set of documents was released?

CARROLL: Throughout this entire ordeal, you do get a chance to talk to some of these people sort of off and on. Did get an opportunity to sort of at least hear from some more of these victims, namely the Fords. They are outraged. There is really no other way to say it. The Fords -- just if I can just recap very quickly -- Greg Ford alleges that he was molested by Father Paul Shanley when he was a child. His parents have been very vocal about what has been happening with these documents ever since.

With this new set of documents, they were just clearly very angry about this material that came out and just simply cannot understand why it appears as if so many of the clergy within the archdiocese of Boston moved this guy around from parish to parish and just simply did not -- were not more forthcoming about his past.

NEVILLE: Jason Carroll, thank you very much for filling us in on the latest.

CARROLL: Thank you.

NEVILLE: OK. Great.

And let's meet right now today's panel. Blanquita Cullum is a talk show host for Radio America and she's just returned from a trip to Saudi Arabia. Bernie Ward is a former Catholic priest and the host of "The Bernie Ward Show" on KGO News Talk AM in San Francisco. In the early '90's, he exposed financial and sexual corruption in San Francisco's Catholic church. Also with us is Ian Punnett. He is a seminary student at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. He is a talk show host on KSTP in Minneapolis. And I would like to welcome all of you to free-for-all Friday.

BLANQUITA CULLUM, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi Arthel.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. And I want to tell you, too, that Peter Blute is going to join us as well. He's the host of "Blute & Ozone" on radio station WRKO in Boston. And he's a former congressman and Massachusetts state representative. So, we are ready for this conversation.

And, Bernie, I'm going to start with you because I'd like to know what you make of all of this?

BERNIE WARD, KGO RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, where do you want to start?

NEVILLE: You know, I mean, on these documents.

WARD: I just found out today that a young man that I taught in high school now was molested by a priest out here. This is the first time that anybody I had known personally or worked with has come forward on this. So it's interesting that we are talking about this today and I just found this out.

Look it, the scandal of all of this is not that there was molestation. It's not that there was a guy, Shanley and NAMBLA. The scandal of this whole thing is the cover-up, the fact that this church and these cardinals and these bishops across the country for 30 or 40 years covered it up, passed these guys around, allowed them to continue to serve. They got some of them out of the country so that the police couldn't question them, like "The Herald" is saying they may do with Law so he can't be deposed.

They used every tactic you can possibly imagine including, if you can believe this, Arthel, they even countersued against some parents who had made accusations to try and stop them from moving forward with their cases. So for 35 years, this has been going on. And in 1985, they were told by a priest, Father Tom Doyle, they were told all about this. They were told about how much it was going to cost. They were told what was going to happen if they didn't do anything about it. They got a 200-page report and they simply threw it away and paid no attention to it and business continued as usual.

NEVILLE: Bernie, why did you leave the priesthood?

WARD: I realized that I could do a lot of the things I wanted to do without having to be a priest. I wanted to teach high school. I wanted to be involved in social justice movement. I wanted to be able to be a part of a Christian community. And I could do all of that without having to be a priest and I, unfortunately or fortunately, I have this trouble with authority. So, you know, we were clashing a lot over what I thought my job should be and what they thought my job should be. And so, it was kind of decided the best thing to do would be to just kind of say thank you very much and try something else.

NEVILLE: You want to be your own boss.

WARD: I wanted to be. I had a little trouble with -- bishops and I never got along very well.

NEVILLE: Let's bring Ian in the conversation. Ian, you have heard all of these allegations, these documents with all of this horrible information that has come out. What do you think about this?

IAN PUNNETT, KSTP RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, Bernie is right in both his assessment and in discussing where the opportunity was lost by the church. I think it's unfortunate that he left the priesthood at least in one sense is that it seems like that is the one thing the priesthood and the church might have been able to have benefited from more, and that's more people to say no, won't be a part of this. This is wrong, to stand up, to speak out. And what you have is a very corporate model of people passing along each other mostly for fear of having to deal with the problem. And by washing their hands of these troublesome priests, these criminal priests, the archdiocese and various parts around the country just created more of a problem.

NEVILLE: Peter, what do you have to say about all of this?

PETER BLUTE, WKRO RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, it's a sorry mess. There's no doubt about it. People in the Boston area in particular are saddened and angry, mostly angry about what these clergy were involved in and the hierarchy of the church covering it up. It's a cancer that has grown on the church and, like a tumor, it needs to be cut out and we need to cut all around it out too. I think heads have to roll starting with Cardinal Law.

NEVILLE: And, Blanquita, I'm going to let you jump in there as well before I get to my next question.

CULLUM: I appreciate that. You know, I think a lot of people would agree with everything that everyone has said here. But the problem is, you think about this, you know, it's kind of like in Washington. Sometimes people get promoted to get them out of the gig.

And you get this guy, you put Cardinal Law near the pope. You know, he's still, if something happens to the pope, he could be right there with those cardinals voting on the next pope. This guy doesn't need to be in a position of power or authority.

NEVILLE: Why can't they kick these people out of the priesthood?

CULLUM: Well, they technically can. I mean, they can. Actually, you know, if they were going to do it, he should go back to boot camp. If they want to keep him as a priest, he should be taken to the poorest district to work with the poor, take a severe vow of poverty and make restitution to people by saying he's sorry.

I mean, I think a lot of people like me, I'm a Catholic, my daughter is getting married this October in a Catholic church. There are a lot of good priests and a lot of good nuns, but the arrogance of power is here. This man believes he's above it and he believes that by his staying in, that it's going to be able to somehow to clean up his legacy, if he wants to do what Christ would have done, he would have said that what he did was wrong. And I think that's the way the church is going survive.

The church cannot in any way, shape or form look like they support this kind of corruption, this kind of evil. And I think that him going to the Vatican...

WARD: The question though is who are you going to replace him with?

CULLUM: Well, you know, let me tell you. There are a lot of good priests to replace him.

NEVILLE: Hang on one sec guys. Let's -- Josh is going to get in on this conversation. One moment please.

JOSH: I have a question for you, Mr. Ward. My question is what do you think of the rule that priests cannot marry? No. 1, do you see biblical basis for that? And, No. 2, do you necessarily think it would be detrimental if priests could marry?

WARD: Well, first of all, there's no scriptural reason for celibacy. Celibacy came in as a discipline to protect the church against property claims from the children of priests. For the first 1,000 years of a church, you had a married clergy.

Actually, right now in the year 2002, there's a married clergy and it's in actually, again, another scandal. They've allowed Episcopal priests to convert to Catholicism and to be able to still have their wife and their children. So you have actually Catholic priests that are asked to be celibate working with and, in some cases, in the same rectory with somebody who goes home every night to the wife and kids.

There's absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be optional and it would solve some of the problems. But let's remember, an awful lot of sins have been committed by married men as well as by celibate men. So even if you do allow that, that doesn't address this culture of secrecy that has been going on for so long.

NEVILLE: All right, guys. There's the bell. You know what? We have a lot more to say about this subject, so we are going to continue this topic after the break. TALKBACK LIVE in a moment.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.

We are talking about shocking documents uncovered by Boston's Catholic diocese that lays bare the private writings of a priest accused of sex abuse. And, right now I want to go to the phones. I have got Esther from Canada. Go ahead, Esther. You are live on TALKBACK LIVE.

ESTHER: Yes, good afternoon. The fact that the Catholic church that imposed their ways into the world for centuries, No. 1, if they were the true representatives of God, this scandal, among other stuff, would have never happened. No. 2, the fact that the Vatican does not allow a judicial system into their churches to investigate states that they have something to hide. Thank you.

NEVILLE: Thank you for speaking out.

WARD: Well, I'm glad you called from Canada because let's make one other point. The fact that the Vatican only called the American cardinals says volumes about the fact that they are worried about donations from America dropping and they're trying to address it. But let's be very clear. We just had a religious order go bankrupt in Canada with over 2,500 lawsuits against it by native Americans for abuse of sexual and other kinds. In Ireland, there's a $500 million fund being set up to deal with the victims of sexual and physical abuse from Catholic institutions there. In Australia, you had a sex ring being run by some Catholic orphanages. In Africa, we had the horrible story of priests that are forcing nuns to have sex with them and in some cases, forcing them to have abortions. This is not something that is limited to the Catholic church in America. This is a church that is totally dysfunctional when it comes to the whole issue of sex.

CULLUM: And, Bernie, I would agree with you on that. And the other part of it is if you are a spiritual person, you believe that there are forces of good and forces of evil. If you believe that this spiritual element is supposed to be pure, well, what will happen to it sometimes, it's threatened by the force of evil.

Of course, there is going to be corruption that comes into the church. But for them to be able to fix it, for them to be able to correct it, is going to maintain the viability of that church and I think that the Catholic church has so many wonderful aspects of it. I as a Catholic love the foundation of the church. I don't like the corruption right now and I think a lot of Catholics like me just want them to get off the dime and fix it and have the guts to clean it up.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Well, here's a question. Do you think the cardinals who are covering up these sex abuse cases should be prosecuted?

CULLUM: Absolutely.

WARD: Well, I have said that.

CULLUM: If they have any kind of -- if they have been covering up and obstructing justice, they are not just priests, but they are citizens. And if they have maintained this cover-up for people, then certainly if there's a way in the law they should be prosecuted, absolutely.

NEVILLE: Peter, go ahead and jump in.

BLUME: Well, the problem was they didn't recognize that from the very beginning, that this was a crime. They called it the priests needed psychological counseling. They had some type of sicknesses when, in essence, it was a crime. I think the pope saying that was very important the other day.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

CULLUM: But, Peter, let me ask you this. If you know that your next door neighbor is molesting a little boy, do you have to have someone give you a manual to tell you that that's wrong?

NEVILLE: Exactly. CULLUM: If you know that it's wrong, it's just evil. It doesn't matter whether the pope says it or whether the Vatican allows it. Whatever it is is evil.

NEVILLE: Guys, I'm going to let Ian jump in now.

PUNNETT: Well, I just think it's important that this not turn into Catholic bashing for the sake of it for the rest of this show. I have to be clear and say that whereas there are many reasons here for us to be extremely critical, there is also other issues like the sanctity of confession which have been recognized by the law. We need to be clear about crimes that were committed, to prosecute those who committed the crimes. But let's not turn this into a witchhunt.

CULLUM: But see, I don't think -- I think you are wrong about. I don't think it's Catholic bashing.

WARD: Confession didn't even come into this.

CULLUM: I think that many of us who are Catholic want it cleaned up and certainly you want to know you can go to confession to a guy -- you are telling your heartache. You're saying, the sins that you have, how do you know on the other side, the guy that's giving you forgiveness doesn't have worse sins than you?

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Excuse me, panel. I'm standing here with someone named Christian. I'm going to let you speak out on this, Christian.

CHRISTIAN: Well, I just wanted to agree with Mr. Blute when he said somebody like Cardinal Law in such a widespread realm of influence, making these kind of mistakes, something like that is -- a minor suspension is a slap on the wrist when you have that kind of influence over so many different people. I think to make those kind of mistakes is just inconceivable and irresponsible to do that when you're in such a...

WARD: Well, remember though, it's not just Cardinal Law. In fact, this thing is so deep that you have Law in Boston and you have Rembert Weakland in Milwaukee, considered to be one of the most liberal bishops in the country, and he was doing exactly the same thing. In fact, if you replaced every bishop who was passing these guys around, you wouldn't have any bishops left in most of the country.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: And once again, I'm jumping in with a person. Excuse me, guys. Panel, panel, you guys are here the whole show. Chill out for me for a second. Tom, what would you like to say?

TOM: What I need to say is that apology and resignation is not enough. This is criminal misconduct that needs to be investigated. The cardinal needs to be detained in the commonwealth of Massachusetts while the investigation goes on and be indicted. (APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Thank you very much.

WARD: Arthel, the one other point -- the other point that needs to be made is this. This isn't just sex. If any Catholic right now, Blanquita wants to walk to the chancery office in Washington and say I want to look at the books. I would like to see how my money is being spent, she would have a snowball's chance in hell of finding that out.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: There goes the bell everybody. We're going to move on and talk about another topic. You know, and Blanquita, she's going to give us an outsider's view inside Saudi Arabia. She has a lot to say about that. So, don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues after this break.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody. OK, President Bush spent several hours talking with Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah yesterday. The two huddled over U.S./Israeli relations and Mideast policy. Mr. Bush did get assurances that the Saudis would not use oil as a weapon, and both men affirmed the strong bond between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and the president even had a chance to show off his ranch.

OK, Blanquita, I want to start with you on this one. Do you think this meeting was successful?

CULLUM: Actually, I do think it was successful. You know, you mentioned that I was in Saudi Arabia. I was there with eight talk show hosts last week. We went everywhere. We went to Riyadh. We went to the oil fields. We went all over the place.

And one of the things that we had heard last week was that they were not going to use oil as a tool. And I think that based on -- I mean, I think a lot of Americans don't realize how much investment when you go around any of the cities, the cities look very new. They are like 35 years old. And you see American corporations and names that we know like Burger King and Toys "R" Us, Victoria's Secret. You look at buildings and they have Arabic and English. So there's a tremendous investment there of American money.

I think that it would be also in their best interest to be able to maintain that viability and that friendship. They have had a very good relationship with Bush's father in the past, which is why I see that they were meeting with him as well, and a very friendly relationship. It's interesting. I mean, we asked questions about education. There was -- I asked today, in fact, the foreign adviser to the crown prince, I said what about the tapes that were confiscated from this guy who was on the airplane. He said it was a snafu, it was mess-up. He said that he believed those tapes are going to be returned to the guy.

He said that there's always a question about the money on the issue of the telethon. He said, you know, that money has not even been disbursed yet. He said we've tried to work very carefully to try to maintain this relationship with the United States.

NEVILLE: Right. You are talking about the $100 million that was raised during that Saudi Arabian telethon. And people thought -- were alleging that that money was going to support some terrorist groups.

CULLUM: Right. And you're right, and that money has not yet even been distributed. But I think that it's -- they are in a situation that is interesting because remember, Osama bin Laden didn't just want to strike the United States. They also hate the royal family. They are surrounded by a bunch of countries that are not friendly to the United States. And so, they have had to maintain a bit of their, I guess their attitude of their strength. But I am going to tell you that I think more than anything, they need and want to be a friend of the United States.

NEVILLE: Which also raises an interesting point, Blanquita, because as you said, I mean, how much can they support the United States and yet risk or avoid the risk of losing support at home?

CULLUM: Well, they can't really afford to lose our relationship as well. Don't forget what we did for them with Kuwait. Don't forget that we have had a great -- you know, we went and basically saved their neck. And they haven't forgotten that. And you have a great percentage of...

BLUTE: I think they have forgotten it.

CULLUM: Well, I would tell you, I found out -- I would say that some of the press that I met with was, shall we say, pretty dicey about the United States. But the majority of the people that I met with -- we went everywhere. We talked to a lot of people. And a lot of them were educated on our country. A lot of them looked at the Constitution. In fact...

NEVILLE: So you are telling me that, you know, we, people in America feel that there's just all this hate being spewed around there in Saudi Arabia towards America.

CULLUM: I would tell you there is more -- there are more people that do not hate the United States. There are some people who do, but then again, I guess if you looked at this country, we'd have the same thing. It is important for us to be diplomatic right now. Of course, there are many people like me who believe in the strong viability of an Israeli state, an Israeli nation. And I'm hoping that with this meeting that we will be able to see the Saudis and the United States work to try to make at least the cease-fire happen. It's a difficult one.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: One second. I have a follow-up for Blanquita. Did you have to wear an abaya when you were walking around town?

CULLUM: Well, I did wear an abaya. An abaya is the black robe, OK? And, actually, when you eat a lot, it kind of hides your eight.

But I wore the scarf because I felt that I needed to be respectful. And I went over there on a mission to be able to get as much information as I could. That was the objective. The year before, I had gone to Israel with the same intention for my audience. I think that, hopefully, things are changing.

We think of them as being around for a long time. They have only been in their own nation state for a little bit more than 70-plus years. We helped to get them there. So, even with issues of women driving, I think that is going to be happening more. I met with a lot of women professionals. But it does have to change in that respect. Maybe we're not seeing them up to Western standards, but that does not mean because they are different, they can't a friend.

(BELL RINGING)

NEVILLE: Blanquita, guess what? You took up the whole segment. But that's OK.

CULLUM: Sorry, guys.

NEVILLE: No, no, no. They are going to get a chance to respond as well, because we're going to talk more about this U.S.-Saudi relations in a minute. So, don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX CUTSFORDSON (ph), BOSTON UNIVERSITY: Hi. My name is Alex Cutsfordson from Boston University. I think that Bush needs to show that he's really ready for compromise in the Middle East by leaving the hard-line rhetoric at home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: All right, our viewers are speaking out.

We have been talking about what the U.S. needs from Saudi Arabia and what that country wants in return. I mean, our phones are lighting up.

So, right now, I want to go to Ayman (ph) in Missouri.

And, Ayman, you are live. Go ahead.

CALLER: Hello, Arthel. My name is Ayman. I am a Palestinian- American and I am a Christian.

And the question was going around yesterday whether Saudi Arabia was a friend or a foe of the United States. I think the question should be whether the United States is a friend or foe of the Arab world. And the answer is pretty obvious from the policies of the United States that it's one-sided, that the Zionists and pro-Israel lobby are controlling the Congress. And the media pretty much -- my family right now as we speak is under siege in Bethlehem.

And I just want the people to know, in America, to know that it's time for them to find out the truth, that it's not a matter of religion.

BLUTE: What about the suicide bombers?

CALLER: It is a matter of nationalism. Religion was never the problem. It is about nationalism. Palestinians are the result of all the civilizations that was founded in Palestine. We are the Hebrews,the Crusaders, the Christians, the Muslims. We are every civilization.

NEVILLE: OK, Ayman, standby, if you will, because I want to get another caller in on this conversation. And that would be Mark from California.

Go ahead, Mark.

CALLER: Hi.

Well, I'd like to say that, since 9/11, it seems like the Saudis and the Arab world seem to be dictating American foreign policy and acting like they are the superpower, threatening our president and threatening boycotts. And we seem to be giving in to terrorism and selling out our real allies in Israel, who are the ones who are actually fighting the real war on terror.

BLUTE: Let's remember that Israel is a democracy. And there isn't an Arab democracy out there. Explain that.

I think we need to reassess our strategic relationship with Saudi Arabia. When the war on terrorism started, we asked to use their air base to help fight al Qaeda. They denied us access to that base, even though 10 years earlier, we lost men and women in that region fighting for their protection.

WARD: Well, we weren't fighting for their protection. We were fighting for oil. We didn't care a damn about the Saudis one way or the other, or the Kuwaitis or anybody else.

I listened to Blanquita talk about Saudi Arabia as if it's some kind of -- it's this wonderful haven. It's a dictatorship. The family of Fahd is hanging on by their fingertips. And the United States is the one that has troops on the ground there keeping the family of Fahd in power.

CULLUM: I understand that.

WARD: And this trip yesterday to Bush, Abdullah was originally supposed to go there to talk about a peace plan. Instead, he comes there yesterday to tell Bush that whatever credibility he had in the Arab world is gone. Bush is the same guy who called Sharon a peacemaker. And Abdullah said yesterday even Sharon doesn't believe that statement. I mean, the Bush administration in all of this has blown any opportunity to have credibility in that region.

CULLUM: That's not true. That's not true. That's absolutely not true.

NEVILLE: OK, stop for me for a second, because Chris and Lamar here have comments.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I don't see why we are continuing to put so much pressure on Israel. They have been giving up land after land. I don't see why we don't put more pressure on the Palestinians to get more with the peace process.

(CROSSTALK)

WARD: ... pave them over and put them back into the -- more into the Stone Age?

NEVILLE: Hang on one sec.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I totally agree. There should be equal pressure placed on both parties, the Palestinians and the Israelis.

But what I think all of us need to do is to avail ourselves of all the information. I myself went to CNN.com and educated myself about the whole struggle and the whole conflict between both parties. There are two sides to every story. We've got to hear both.

NEVILLE: And I want to let Ian jump in.

BLUTE: Arafat was offered the deal of the century from Barak. Arafat was offered the deal of the century from Barak. And he walked away from it and went back to the utilization of terrorism.

NEVILLE: Hey, Bernie, do...

WARD: And, therefore, it justifies bulldozing the entire Palestinian territory in order to respond to it, to kill people that are alive in their homes, to be shooting innocent civilians as you go through? Whether he took the deal or he didn't take the deal, that shouldn't have meant a death penalty for the people in the Palestinian territories.

(CROSSTALK)

BLUTE: The Israeli forces are going after the terrorist camps.

CULLUM: Excuse me. There shouldn't be a death penalty for either. I think that most people -- having gone to Israel last year, I think both sides understand that they want to have some sort of cease-fire.

And I think, from the Israeli side, from so many people that I talked to, even from the most orthodox and from Labor and Likud, they recognize that, at some point, there will have to be some semblance of a Palestinian state. What we are talking about is trying to get a cease-fire.

(BELL RINGING)

NEVILLE: OK, the bell has rung. That means we move on.

And when we come back: "The Bachelor." We are going to really switch gears here. The bachelor picks a mate. What was it about? I don't know. I don't know. You know that show "The Bachelor" on ABC? I didn't watch it it, so we can talk about that. I'll learn a lot when we come back.

Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: OK. Welcome back.

In the world of reality TV, few things are left to the imagination. And for six weeks, ABC's reality series "The Bachelor" has played to romantic fantasies. It was the world where 25 women jostled for the privilege of marrying one man. It was the world of plastic sheets and ice cream.

And Alex Michel, a Harvard-educated management consultant, had the hard job of whittling his delicious choices down to just one. And, in the end, he chose Amanda Marsh, an event planner from Kansas. But he held off giving her the Harry Winston diamond in his pocket. He decided they should get to know each other first in the real world.

But I thought that was the whole point of the doggone show.

Panel, help me out.

WARD: Well, that's the big scam of this, Arthel. The big scam is that we went through six weeks so he could go steady. I thought he was going take out his letterman sweater and give it to her at that point in time.

CULLUM: Do you remember the name of that gal? What was her name, Darla Conger or Darma Conger, or whatever her name was?

BLUTE: Darva.

CULLUM: Didn't we just go through this?

WARD: Well, we went through this. And it's just pathetic that we still have, in this country, this idea that men's ego have to be assuaged and all that women want is to find this one guy to get married, etcetera.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: I agree with you, Blanquita. Turn the tables. CULLUM: Why can't we have it the other way? Let's have all the guys come over to us.

WARD: If you did that, the woman would be accused of being everything from a bimbo to a slut. And the late-night TV would have a field day with this, because in this country...

CULLUM: So? So? So, who cares? We could do that anyway. This is supposed to be liberated times, right?

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Go ahead, Ian.

PUNNETT: Well, they actually are doing that. ABC is working on "The Bachelorette." And they will be turning the tables.

And, for me, at the end of the show, big surprise: The guy chose the youngest, leggiest, biggest-busted blonde. Wow! Who saw that coming?

NEVILLE: Geena from New York has something to say about this.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Hold on for me, panel.

GEENA: I think it's really sad that we need to look at reality TV for, like, entertainment, like that's our -- we have to be voyeurs into this whole thing. And it's just sad that, in the 21st century, we have to find a mate, like women have to find this one guy and fight over him. It's just a sad, sad thing.

NEVILLE: And then do it on TV.

CULLUM: It would be more fun to go fight over stuff at Sachs or something.

WARD: Well, and this wasn't even realty.

NEVILLE: Blanquita, you don't want to get between me and something at Sachs.

CULLUM: Oh, no, Arthel. Trust me, girl, I know you would probably win.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Go ahead, Peter. Go ahead, Peter.

BLUTE: It's mostly harmless fun. But the great thing about America is that we have choices. There's 500 channels. You can go to the Internet. You can choose what you want to watch. I would prefer to watch the Boston Bruins win the Stanley Cup. CULLUM: Oh, gosh, bad choice.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: All right, guys, we have Cameron.

PUNNETT: I would choose to watch "The Osbournes."

NEVILLE: Oh, you like "The Osbournes." All right, Ian. Ian, you like "The Osbournes"? OK.

PUNNETT: And I think, actually, that there are better values represented in "The Osbournes" than there were on the show "The Bachelor."

NEVILLE: Ian, you know what? Ian, I had you all wrong. I thought you had that nice mellow-color suit on and looking all conservative. But, OK. You are all right with me, Ian.

OK, let's get Cameron to speak out now. Go ahead, Cam.

CAMERON: I don't really know much about the TV show "The Bachelor," but I just heard that the guy picked the most beautiful woman on there with the biggest bust and all that. Well, what I think is, hey, it don't matter about all that. He should just learn to know how they act in real life and all that to decide whether they are pretty or not.

NEVILLE: I agree with you. Do you have a girlfriend?

CAMERON: Not right now, but I'm looking.

NEVILLE: You know what?

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Hang on. Stand up back up here, Cam, see, because this is going to be a nice man. For all you girls looking for somebody, Cam is a nice, respectable guy. Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE).

CULLUM: Hey, Arthel?

NEVILLE: Yes, go ahead.

CULLUM: Arthel, we need to ask him, though, if he has his choice, and he has got all those women, and one is a little prettier and has a little bigger boobs, is he going to choose her over the one that is a little plainer with a good brain?

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Hang on. Let him answer. Time out.

CAMERON: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question completely. CULLUM: I said, if you have your choice -- you have got 25 women in there in that big audience out there. And they are all nice and they are all pretty and they have good personalities. If one is a little prettier and has bigger boobs, are you going to choose that over a brain?

CAMERON: Not really. I would rather have someone that would be loyal to me throughout my whole life.

CULLUM: All right.

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: You are just too nice.

CULLUM: Gold star.

NEVILLE: Stand up, Josh. Go ahead, Josh.

JOSH: All I have to say is that I bet this guy is just going to go on a little six-month joy ride and he is not going to be with her. I don't think this is the real thing. I think it's just entertainment.

WARD: Well, there are already reports that he is not with her, that he was seen in L.A. with somebody else.

But let me ask you a simple question. How many people today would want their daughters to have been one of those 25 women in that process?

(BELL RINGING)

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: All right guys, time out. That is all the time we have for this today. And Peter, Blanquita, Bernie and Ian, I want to thank you so much for being with us today.

CULLUM: You too, Arthel.

NEVILLE: Yes.

We are going to end today on a sad note: the tragic death of TLC's Lisa Lopes. When we come back, I'm going to talk to her band mates about her life and death and the future of the group. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

Grammy winner Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes was killed in a head-on collision last night in Honduras. Officials say she was driving at the time and died instantly. Seven other people in the car survived. Lisa was a member of TLC, the best-selling girl group in history. Lisa would have turned 31 next month.

And right now, I have a very special interview I want to share with you. Joining me on the phone are T-Boz and Chilli of TLC.

And, ladies, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me on this very, sad day. And I want to offer my condolences to you and to the family.

TIONNE "T-BOZ" WATKINS, TLC: Thank you.

ROZONDA "CHILLI" THOMAS, TLC: Thank you.

NEVILLE: And, T-Boz, I want to start with you, if I could. Could you tell me about the Lisa you knew?

WATKINS: Yes.

Lisa was one of the most (AUDIO GAP) people knew, one of the biggest hearts. She was the only person I knew that would take a person off the street and take care of them, give them the shirt off her back, one of the most talented people I know as well -- like, all the talent that she had that people didn't know about: building furniture, air brushing, painting, drawing. Anything she put her mind forth to do, she could: selling clothes for TLC, just everything you can think of. She built our stages for our tours, anything.

She was just, like, really curious and would just like totally conquer anything she wanted to do.

NEVILLE: And she also, as you told me earlier, T-Boz, when I spoke to you on the phone this morning, you were telling me about how she just had so much compassion for other people, working with kids who were battered and abused. Tell me a little bit about that.

WATKINS: I can't right now remember the name of the foundation. She said it on "How to be a Millionaire." But she did a lot of work with the lupus charity foundation as well.

NEVILLE: Chilli, I want to get new on this as well. And tell us your memories of Lisa.

ROZONDA "CHILLI" THOMAS, TLC: Lisa, she is very loving. She is weird because she's a little standoffish at first. And when you can break that, it's like she's just she's just the sweetest. And she really, really loves people. It seemed like she almost carried more about other people than she cared for herself.

And, I mean, she was our sister. And no matter what we all went through, we are sisters. Sisters argue and they kiss and make up. And that's just how our relationship was. And...

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

I want to talk to you a little bit about what happened. We are hearing so many different reports. And I know that there were other people in the car included Egypt, which is a new girl group, I guess, that Lisa was helping to produce. And then her brother and her sister were in threat car, as well as a couple of producers.

Do you have any other information as to what happened?

THOMAS: It's kind of hard to talk about that right now.

NEVILLE: Yes, I understand.

THOMAS: We just found out on MTV for the first time how she actually passed. So, that's too hard.

WATKINS: That's a little too touchy.

THOMAS: I'm sure when it's time to come out the right way, it will.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

And, Chilli, have either of you -- have you spoke to Andre at all?

THOMAS: No, I haven't spoken to Andre.

NEVILLE: Now, again, this is certainly an untimely death. And we are all feeling really bad about the situation. But I do have to ask you this. TLC, what a great group and what impact that you had, a positive impact on so many young people. Have you thought about yet about what happens to the group?

THOMAS: She's still forever.

WATKINS: Yes.

THOMAS: Regardless.

WATKINS: Through us, people will always remember Lisa. We'll always be a group. And so it doesn't stop.

THOMAS: Lisa will never be replaced.

WATKINS: Ever.

THOMAS: Ever.

NEVILLE: T-Boz and Chilli, thank you very much for sharing your memories with us here today on TALKBACK LIVE. Again, our prayers are with you and your family.

And that's it for our show today. Thank you so much for joining us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com