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CNN Live Today

Interviews With Diana Buttu, Alan Baker

Aired April 29, 2002 - 13:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Still in the Middle East now, negotiations continue to end another standoff. This one at Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity. About 200 people were holed up inside that church more than three weeks after they sought refuge during Israel's military action. An Israeli official saying talks continue to arrange the arrest of at least 20, maybe 30 Palestinians on Israel's wanted list and the release of the others inside.

Let's get some insight right now on what we're learning and gathering from the weekend and today from the Middle East. The Palestinian perspective first, Diana Buttu is a legal adviser to the Palestinian Authority. Good to see you again. Good afternoon to you.

DIANA BUTTU, LEGAL ADVISER, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY: Hi, Bill. How are you?

HEMMER: I'm doing fine. Thank you. What does it tell you that there apparently is at least talking going on at some level between Israelis and Palestinians?

BUTTU: Well, it just signifies how important international intervention is in this conflict. This is something that we've been repeatedly saying over the past 19 months, that in order to bridge seemingly unbridgeable gaps, we will need the assistance of the international community not only to monitor Palestinian obligations, but also to monitor Israel's obligations.

HEMMER: President Bush over the weekend, you may have heard him yesterday, say Yasser Arafat if given the ability to move freely, West Bank, Gaza, possibly other international locations, that he must quote, unquote, "do his job." How do you interpret those comments from President Bush?

BUTTU: Well, in order for President Arafat to actually do his job -- using the words of President Bush -- we are going to have to examine the security forces that are now remaining on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. As you know, the security services have been completely destroyed by the Israeli army. And so, it's very unreasonable for them to expect a complete resumption of security cooperation.

What we need at this point, in order to get the security on the ground, is for there to be an international protection force. At the same time, we have to ensure that there's a movement towards guaranteeing that the occupation will be ended because that will be the only way for both the Israelis to have security and for the Palestinians to get freed.

HEMMER: I think the things you are talking about right now will come down the road possibly. But in the near-term, do his job, lend some sort of voice, again, to the peace process. Again, what will Yasser Arafat do if given the freedom of movement?

BUTTU: Well, he has been doing this for the past 18 months. He's repeatedly called for negotiations. And what the Israeli government has said is the opposite, that the Palestinians need to be beaten badly, those are Sharon's words, before they actually enter into negotiations.

The Palestinians are very well aware that we need to resume negotiations, that there needs to be an end to this occupation. It's Israel who has been the party who has not wanted to resume negotiations.

HEMMER: The talk about the six men who were tried last week in this makeshift courtroom in Ramallah, possibly to be guarded or overseen by U.S. monitors in the West Bank town of Jericho. You're a legal adviser. How is this deal going to work?

BUTTU: Well, this deal will work because precisely -- it's precisely hitting at international law. International law prohibits the movement of people who are detained into unoccupied territory. In other words, these people cannot be moved into Israel nor can that be exiled. They have to remain within occupied territory. This is something that we've repeatedly called upon.

HEMMER: The U.S. is saying though it wants a new trial. Will they get it?

BUTTU: Well, they may well get it. I'm not entirely sure at this point.

HEMMER: And if indeed that is the case, then one would think that possibly all sides could be satisfied. But at this point, it doesn't look like Israel is going to sit back and take that.

BUTTU: Well, that's just it. Israel continually ups the ante. It continually puts obstacles in the way and then removes those obstacles slightly and remains -- and states that they are concessions. What we need is we need the international community involved, the international community to oversee and to supervise the operations so that the two parties can actually reconcile differently.

HEMMER: I'm going to get the Israeli side in a moment here, but I want to know from you. Do you think the temperature has cooled at all in the Middle East relative to where we were three or four weeks ago?

BUTTU: Well, it's certainly better than it was three weeks ago. But we have to understand that the siege in these towns is still continuing. It's still impossible for a Palestinian to go from Ramallah up to Jenin. It's impossible for a Palestinian to go from Ramallah to Nablus. And although it's not the same as it was a few weeks ago, it's still very bad.

HEMMER: All right. Diane Buttu, a Palestinian legal adviser live in D.C., thanks again. We will talk again, I'm certain.

BUTTU: Thank you.

HEMMER: Reaction now to the Middle East developments from the other side, the Israeli point of view. From Jerusalem, Alan Baker, legal adviser for Israel's ministry of foreign affairs. Sir, we say good evening to you and welcome to our program.

Jenin, at what point will Israel allow this U.N. group to go in there and conduct the investigation that many have wanted to see for a week's time now?

ALAN BAKER, LEGAL ADVISER, ISRAEL FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTRY: Well, we're still waiting for some clarifications so that we'll make sure that the team will act in accordance with the accepted standard guidelines that all these fact-finding missions abide by when carrying out such things.

HEMMER: Give us a timeframe on this, though? Many have anticipated it. Everybody thought it would happen within 24 hours or 48 hours, but that was a week ago. It still hasn't taken place yet.

BAKER: Well, as soon as the arrangements are clarified and as soon as it becomes evident that this is going to be a genuine fact- finding mission and nothing more than that, and as soon as it's evident that this mission is going to deal with the events surrounding what happened in Jenin including the terrorist infrastructure that existed there that brought about the need for Israel's entry into Jenin, then there will be no problem with the fact-finding...

HEMMER: Put in white and black terms for us. Make it simple. What does Israel want on this team that would be satisfactory?

BAKER: Look, look there's a very serious and literal blood libel. We were accused of massacring 2,000 people, and then it went down to 1,000 people, and slowly came down until it's become evident to everybody that perhaps 50 people were killed. Of those, 46, 47 were actual terrorists, fighters killed with their weapons, and three, four innocent individuals that were trapped there and that were killed.

Now, this is a blood libel that's been circulated throughout the world. We have got every interest in simply proving that this blood libel is absolutely not true. And so, the only thing we want to ensure is in the same way that the Palestinians have been circulating this type of thing, that they're not going to use this fact-finding team in order to make the whole thing...

HEMMER: Let me move to -- understood. Let me move to a different area here, strictly based on time here. Your prime minister will apparently make a trip to the U.S. possibly within two weeks' time. What does that indicate to you about what was happening in Crawford, Texas between the crown prince of Saudi Arabia and President Bush?

BAKER: Well, I presume that the crown prince explained the components of the plan that he has for peace, and I would presume President Bush will want to introduce it to Prime Minister Sharon and to see what he thinks.

HEMMER: You don't attach any more significance to it than that, obviously?

BAKER: Well, look, we would all welcome any possibility of moving forward to peace. We've always wanted peace, and, in fact, when we tried to offer a virtual withdrawal from all the territories, the Palestinians opened with a festival of terror. This is what's been going on for the last year and a half. So we're very skeptical, quite frankly, we're very skeptical as to what can be offered if the Palestinians rejected almost all the territories that were offered them.

HEMMER: Mr. Baker, you heard Diana Buttu on with us from the Palestinian side before we talked to you. She was insistent that the Palestinians say there must be international peacekeepers on the ground, whether that's the West Bank or guarding the green line between Israel proper. What is the Israeli position on the possibility of this happening at some point in the near future?

BAKER: We've never objected to peacekeepers on the ground. We've heard it several times during the past. However, it has to be something based on agreement of Israel or agreement of both parties. It must be something that comes out of an agreement between the two sides. It can't be imposed. It can't be one-sided. It can't be against the will of one side.

HEMMER: Alan Baker, foreign affairs legal adviser live in Jerusalem. Thank you, sir, for your time. We will talk again.

BAKER: You're welcome.

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