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American Morning

In Paris, Thousands of Demonstrators March Against Rightist Political Candidate Jean-Marie Le Pen

Aired May 01, 2002 - 08:41   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now the changing political winds in Europe. In Paris today, tens of thousands of demonstrators marched against the rightist political candidate Jean-Marie Le Pen. His surprise second place showing in the recent French elections has forced a runoff. But it is only the most recent incidence of a far right victory in Europe. In Denmark, the People's Party won 12 percent of the vote in a November election, capitalizing on anti- immigrant sentiment following September 11th. In Austria, the anti- immigrant Freedom Party is in the governing coalition, and its one- time leader Jorge Haider is still a provincial governor. And far right candidates have won recent elections in Germany, Holland and Belgium.

So is Europe lurching to the right? Well, to help answer that question, we're joined in Washington by Patrick Buchanan, syndicated columnist and former presidential candidate. His latest book is "The Death of the West: How Dying Populations and Immigrant Invasions Imperil Our Country and Civilization." Here in the studios, Jeff Greenfield for perspective on all of this as well.

Don't worry, Patrick, he's not going to be your sparring partner here this morning.

PAT BUCHANAN, FMR. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I can handle Jeff.

ZAHN: First of all -- you think you can. We're going to test you here in a second.

BUCHANAN: I just think I can, right.

ZAHN: What kind of a wake-up call should this be?

BUCHANAN: Well, Le Pen basically -- the showing for him is only 17 percent. But what it shows is French men and women are deeply concerned about crime. They associate it with the mass immigration from North Africa. They're concerned about other issues, which are the issues of the 21st century. That's the loss of sovereignty by nations, the loss of their ethnic identity, and the loss of their cultural identity, and I think Le Pen basically is the vehicle for all of these, but I wouldn't expect him to get more than 25 percent of the vote in the runoff on Sunday.

ZAHN: But what does his success, do you think, represent? BUCHANAN:; I think it represents a very healthy reaction to what I disagree with. I don't like globalization either. I don't want America to lose its identity. I think France, for example, is a small country; it cannot absorb masses of immigrants from different cultures and civilizations. It doesn't have the experience of the United States. And the rising crime just as in the '60s in the United States is producing a tremendous backlash for working people who are the victims of this crime.

I think it's a very natural reaction. And unless the majority parties deal with these legitimate issues, they're going to become minority parties, just like Joe Spann's socialist did in the last election.

ZAHN: Jeff, why is this power so potent right now, and what is fueling it?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Well, crime is an issue that strikes at the heart of people's most basic fears, as indeed, it should. If you are -- if you do not feel safe if your home or neighborhood, almost every other issue drops by the wayside. I think Pat is right on this score, parties that do not deal with it find themselves ultimately facing public reaction.

The other thing is -- we've seen it in the United States for, oh, I don't know, 150 years. Immigrants in and of themselves, whether they commit any high crime rates or not, have historically posed a threat because of people's basic fears of strangers. That happened as far back as the middle 19th century with the Know Nothing Party that was anti-Catholic. It happened on the West Coast when Asians came in. It happened in the north when blacks moved up from the south in the '30s and '40s. So even when there are not these other serious issues, like the rising crime rate, people would feel unsettled.

You mix that in, crime with unsettledness, and with what Pat talked about, this fear of losing your national identity, whether it's valid or not, and it is a potent political mix.

ZAHN: So where does this...

BUCHANAN: Let me follow up on that.

ZAHN: Yes, go ahead, Pat.

BUCHANAN: In my book, I point out, Europe is dying. The various peoples of Europe are disappearing slowly. They've got to have mass immigration simply to have enough workers to pay the pensions and health insurance. But these workers are by and large coming from Islamic countries and from southern Africa, and it's very difficult to assimilate them, and Europe has never do it. They have a permanent hellatious problem, and we're just seeing the beginnings of it that Jeff was describing.

ZAHN: Let's put this in perspective in the United States, Jeff. How do you see these issues playing out, perhaps as soon as the next presidential election? GREENFIELD: I think the United States and Europe are fundamentally different in this regard. The United States is a country -- and Pat will probably disagree with this, and that's OK -- that is far more accepting in the long run of different mixes. We don't come from any one place. And so that, plus the fact that the United States historically has been able not only to absorb immigrants, but to see them as nurturers, is a big difference.

Look, Pat Buchanan is a very eloquent fellow, but when he ran for president in the year 2000, the time of peace and prosperity, he got half of 1 percent of the vote. Had there been higher unemployment and a rising crime rate, rather than a declining crime rate, Pat probably would have done better. As George Wallace in 1968, at a time of turmoil, he got 13 percent of the national vote...

BUCHANAN: Let me step in here. Jeff is right, we are much more receptive, we're a huge country, we're more receptive and understanding of immigration, and from Third World countries.

But let me say this, my views on immigration, for a time out, which we did have for 40 years, and needed after 1920, those views are accepted and believed by 75 percent of the people, 95 want illegal immigration halted.

You saw when Mr. Bush, very popular president, proposed an amnesty for illegal immigration, the firestorm inside the Republican Party was so great that this whole thing was stopped dead in its tracks. This issue, especially in the southwest, of massive illegal immigration in America is the hottest issue going. And it is a coming issue in America. And Americans are resenting it and resisting it to a tremendous degree.

But you're right, America's a different place. Europeans have never had anything like this before.

ZAHN: Jeff, you get the final thought, 10, 15 seconds worth if you can do that.

GREENFIELD: I think it's interesting, and just very quickly, that Pat's view of immigration, by and large, more broadly, was fought by a lot of very prominent conservatives, including a guy named Ronald Reagan.

ZAHN: Sure. He makes a good point there, doesn't he, Pat?

BUCHANAN: Listen, Ronald Reagan -- I agreed with him in those years. My position has changed, because suddenly, we got more illegal immigrants in America and there are people in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. And the situation changes, the facts change, I changed my mind.

What do you do, Jeff?

GREENFIELD: Oh, you're stealing that line from a very famous 20th century person, Pat. You've got to start writing your own lines. Now, come on, I read too many quote books for you to get away with that.

Write your own lines, Buchanan, you're a retired speechwriter.

ZAHN: All right, thanks, gentlemen, Pat Buchanan, Jeff Greenfield.

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