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American Morning
Israeli Ambassador, Palestinian Representative Discuss Middle East
Aired May 01, 2002 - 9:09 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, we're going to turn out attention back to the Middle East right now. We just heard about the breakthrough in Ramallah that there is no breakthrough in the stalemate over the United Nations mission to investigate allegations of an Israeli massacre in Jenin. "The Washington Times" is reporting this morning that Palestinian officials have lowered their death toll estimate from about 500 to 56.
CNN's Richard Roth is at the UN.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The UN mission to Jenin may be aborted before takeoff. UN Secretary General Kofi Annan told the Security Council he is leaning heavily towards disbanding the mission after Israel rejected the latest proposal.
KOFI ANNAN, UN SECRETARY-GENERAL: In these circumstances, I cannot keep these gentlemen and women sitting in Geneva and we will have to draw the consequences and take action.
ROTH: But after four postponements, meetings, telephone calls and letters, Israel still questioned the fairness of the probe. At first, Israel agreed to a UN representative, saying it had nothing to hide. Then every day the list of Israeli grievances with the team grew. Of prime concern, it's soldiers might face questioning or prosecution.
SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: We don't want that every soldier will move with their lawyer. No army -- I spoke with some American generals, they would never agree that the committee will come. Do you know any precedent about it? It never happened.
ROTH: Jenin is the latest bump in a lengthy acrimonious history between Israel and the United Nations. Secretary General Annan said he is very aware of Israel's anxieties and concerns. But many UN countries feel Israel is making a mockery of the UN system.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Israelis are playing games. They are procrastinating.
(END VIDEOTAPE) ROTH: Last night, Kofi Annan said there are a lot of rumors, a lot of accusations -- we just don't know what is really true. Now, Annan, the architect of this team, needs the Security Council's help in guidance. He's waiting for their reaction. They have a meeting scheduled for later this afternoon -- Paula.
ZAHN: All right, Richard Roth, thanks so much.
And joining us now to talk about both UN and the Middle East mission and the breakthrough in Ramallah, from New York, Yehuda Lancry is Israeli ambassador to the UN, and from Washington this morning, Hasan Abdel Rahman, Chief Palestinian representative to the United States.
Welcome back, gentlemen. Nice to see both of you.
YEHUDA LANCRY, ISRAEL AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: Thank you.
HASAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE TO THE UNITED STATES: Good morning.
ZAHN: Mr. Rahman, what do you make of the news that Yasser Arafat could be released sometime within the next hour from house arrest?
RAHMAN: Well, we hope that this will constitute a step towards the lifting of the siege from all the Palestinian cities and towns and to implement those illusions of the Security Council, which is long overdue.
ZAHN: Ambassador Lancry, do you hope the same thing will happen? We should make clear that in exchange for the letting Yasser Arafat out from under house arrest, six Palestinian, what the Israeli described as terrorist, will be handed over to, we are told, CIA officers as they are transferred to yet another prison.
LANCRY: Yes, you may recall from the very beginning Israel told that we're not going to reoccupy the Palestinian territories or cities. Now that we have reached reasonable agreement with the Palestinians about the six suspected men so the Chairman Arafat can, of course, enjoy a renewed freedom of movement.
ZAHN: Let's move on to the conflict over this potential UN fact- finding mission to Jenin. Mr. Rahman, we heard a number of Palestinian representatives earlier today saying all Israel is doing here is buying time. But do you understand Israel's concern about the perception that this mission would be stacked against them?
RAHMAN: Well, the behavior of Israel is unacceptable. It's defiance of the international legality. It's obvious that Israel committed war crimes in Jenin and in other places. If Israel, as it says, has nothing to hide why does not Israel allow the international community to come and investigate as they said in the beginning? The behavior of Israel will create anarchy in the international system because if every state that does not like resolution of the Security Council justifies it, then this will lead anarchy in international system.
ZAHN: Ambassador Lancry, respond to the charges that Mr. Rahman just had that Israel has committed "obvious war crimes" here in Jenin.
LANCRY: Frankly, I do not expect that Ambassador Rahman will really understand the Israeli's concerns. From the very beginning, the Palestinians sound extremely alarmist, and in fact, it is symptomatic of the hyperbolic Palestinian discourse. They talk about thousands of deaths and robberies of the Jenin camp. Then went down to some hundreds, and today they have to face the evidence of only 47 Palestinian gunmen killed in the fierce battle where Israel also lost 23 people.
Of course, we deplore the death of seven innocent people but there was no massacre. There are no atrocities in this camp and Israeli intended to cooperate with the international community but based upon a fair fact-finding inquiry and not judgmental conclusions that is a derivation from the fact-finding ruins.
ZAHN: OK.
LANCRY: And we do not accept this.
ZAHN: Ambassador Rahman, what about the charge, on Ambassador's Lancry's part, that the Palestinians have exaggerated the death toll here? You just heard the numbers he used, which square with the "Washington Times" number, the numbers have gone down from thousands now to 56 dead and Ambassador Lancry describing 47 of them as Palestinian gunmen. Where is the obvious evidence of this war crimes, you know, absent of any fact-finding team going in there?
RAHMAN: First, it is not the numbers that count. It is the methods used by Israel in dealing with a civilian population. To use Apache helicopters to fire missiles at civilian quarters, that's in violation of international law. To destroy homes over its inhabitance, that's a violation of international law. Not to allow humanitarian aid for 14 days to arrive to wounded people, that is a violation of international humanitarian law. All of those constitute war crimes under the Geneva Convention.
ZAHN: OK. Ambassador Rahman, how would you compare that to the toll the Israeli have taken with the suicide bombings?
RAHMAN: Well, we have condemned what happened to Israeli civilians at the hands of the suicide bombing. But we have to distinguish between actions committed by individuals or groups and the actions committed by occupying power the state. Now we call our -- the Palestinian action against Israel terrorist. We did not hesitate to do that. But when a state becomes involved in terroristic action, that is violation of international law. That's why...
ZAHN: Ambassador Lancry, unfortunately we'll lose satellite here. We just got about have 15 seconds for your closing reactions from Ambassador Rahman.
LANCRY: I just to say -- just to say Paula, that the individuals and groups which are leading terrorist activities are doing so under the complete support and the complete guidance of the Palestinian authority. So instead of accusing the Israel of terrorism, it would be better for the Palestinian authority to crackdown on terrorist and to try to agree to a ceasefire and to renew negotiations with Israel.
ZAHN: All right, gentlemen, we're going to have to leave it there. Ambassadors Rahman and Lancry, good to have you on "American Morning".
LANCRY: Thank you.
ZAHN: Appreciate your time.
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