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CNN Live Today

In Israel: Arafat Freed, More Shots at Church of Nativity

Aired May 02, 2002 - 10:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: First up this hour on CNN, Israeli forces pull back, Yasser Arafat steps out and angry accusations heat up once again.

Earlier this morning, the Palestinian leader came out of his newly-freed compound to assess the damage inflected upon surrounding Ramallah during his month-long imprisonment.

And Ramallah is where we find our Matthew Chance with the latest -- Matthew, hello.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Daryn, as well.

And it is the day after the night before here, and the extent of the damage that has been sustained by this, Yasser Arafat's presidential compound in Ramallah has become apparent us to.

Let's take a look at some of that damage. As you can see in the picture behind me, the cars there piled up by Israeli bulldozers to act as a barricade. Inside that building with the corrugated roof, a number of people are looking at the presidential vehicles. We are talking limousines, four-wheel drives that have been smashed into pieces by Israeli bulldozers.

All across this compound, evidence of the veracity of the fighting between the Israeli forces and the Palestinians cooped up inside. Inside we have some video I think we can roll of what the situation looks inside that building, where Yasser Arafat himself was holed up for more than a month, along with six Palestinians wanted by Israel, and of course, hundreds of other people living in quite appalling conditions of sanitation, furniture smashed up inside there.

In the hours after the Israelis lifted their siege of this compound, I was able to have a one-on-one interview with Yasser Arafat. He said that though despite all of this damage and devastation, he still held out hopes for peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Here is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YASSER ARAFAT, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY: To follow up this strong start from his excellency and his excellence President Bush, and to complete what his father, President Bush the father, when he started Mideast conference, the peace conference, land for peace for our children and for their children, for the Palestinians and for the Israelis and for the whole Middle East Area and for the whole world, and not to forget the Terra Santa, the land of peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Or rather, a one-on-one interview that I managed to conduct with Yasser Arafat last night. That one-on-one interview I conducted with him in his compound in just a few minutes, the few minutes after the Israelis ended their siege.

Now, Yasser Arafat, for the immediate future, one of the things he told me he would be doing is moving around the Palestinian areas, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, at least those areas of those places under Palestinian control, observing, viewing the damage that has been caused in these weeks and months of Israeli military incursions into these Palestinian areas.

In the more medium term though, he said he did intend to move outside those Palestinian territories, perhaps pay diplomatic visits to the capitals of Arab countries and European nations as well. But as we have been hearing, it's a risk he will be taking. He will be weighing up that risk, that whether Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister, will permit him if he even permits him to leave, will he permit him to come back into the Palestinian territories -- Daryn, back to you for the moment.

KAGAN: Matthew, first of all, good work getting in there and getting that interview with Yasser Arafat. Overall, what were your impressions of his mood and his condition, when you had a chance to sit down and talk with him?

CHANCE: Well, he was obviously extremely defiant. He had endured such a lot for this period of more than a month cooped up inside these buildings, along with hundreds of other people as well. But he also came across as an extremely old man, relatively fragile, quite emotional as well. He was obviously very upset.

He told me about what was going on at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. In fact, initially he didn't want to speak at all about what he had endured, and he was simply talking about Israeli aggression, in his words, around the Church of the Nativity. This was his big concern. He also expressed his concern about the U.N. investigation in Jenin and how that hadn't worked out as well as he had anticipated.

On the Bethlehem issue, he said he felt betrayed almost by the Israelis on this issue. He had assumed he had been working under the impression of resolution to that standoff would be worked out on the same basis as here in Ramallah, where the people wanted by Israel perhaps would be taken into international custody. That has not happened, though.

What comes next in terms of the politics of the situation, how we move on from this situation, it is just not clear at this stage -- Daryn. KAGAN: Well, one way it needs to move on, and that is with the end of the suicide bombings. Did Yasser Arafat answer any questions on that note, on stepping up and being more responsible for an end to this type of violence and terrorism?

CHANCE: I put that question to him a number of times. At least twice I recall asking him what he would do now to put more pressure on militant groups to end their attacks on Israeli civilians. His answer was that, of course, he would do what he could, but he also made the point that his job had been made much more difficult by the fact that the Israeli military had been conducting the incursions inside Palestinian areas, conducting what many Palestinians, rightly or wrongly, see as a massacre in the West Bank town of Jenin. And he said obviously that is going to fuel anger which the militant groups are going to tap into.

And so the point he was making is that Israel has made his job much more difficult by conducting these operations -- Daryn.

KAGAN: It might be difficult, but the world and especially the United States will be watching. Matthew Chance, in Ramallah -- thank you very much.

As you heard Matthew talk about, he also mentioned Bethlehem. We are also keeping an eye on that situation, this morning's crackle of gunfire at the Church of the Nativity. It was month ago today that that standoff started between Israeli troops on the outside and Palestinians on the inside, but the past 24 hours may be the most difficult.

For more on this developing story, we now turn our senior international correspondent, Walter Rodgers in Bethlehem -- Walter, hello.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Daryn.

Things may be calm in Ramallah outside Yasser Arafat's headquarters, but here in Bethlehem on the fringe of the Church of the Nativity, there has been gunfire again within the past 15 minutes or so. Rifle shots, we are not sure whether it's the Israelis or the Palestinians that are firing, but again, within the last 15 minutes I have heard half a dozen shots fired in the area behind me, 75 meters down this street. In the distance, you can see the Church of the Nativity; also an Israeli tank outside that church, which is the traditional site of Jesus' birth.

The Israelis have issued new charges against Palestinians this morning, saying they now have information to believe that the Palestinian gunmen inside that church have planted bombs inside the church. Also they have allegedly booby-trapped the doors, according to the Israeli Army. How did the Israelis know this? They won't say, but it is known that they have debriefed, questioned scores of people, who have been released from the standoff at the Church of the Nativity. Those people having been debriefed in the course of the last month. The Israelis also say they know -- quote -- "for sure that it was the Palestinians who set fire to the church last night," the Palestinians within the church. They say that those fires, two fires were deliberately set, one in the area of the Franciscan Monastery, the other in the area of the Orthodox Tower in the Church of the Nativity.

The Israelis say the Palestinians deliberately set those fires, and they coincided with the timing of Arafat's release from Ramallah. The Israelis say that the fires were used -- were set by the Palestinians, so Arafat could use them to indict and blast the Israelis.

What the Israelis interestingly have done is come up with photographs, tight photographs of the windows, where the fires occurred. And you can see that the glass exploded outward from the windows, suggesting the fire was started from within, according to the Israelis. The Israelis say that if they had accidentally started the fire in their shooting last night, that indeed the glass would be on the inside. And there were very clear photographs of glass on the outside.

The situation remains tense here. There are no negotiations under way at this point. The Israelis say they would like continued negotiations, but they say it's now all in Yasser Arafat's hands.

KAGAN: Walter, we would like to ask you a personal question here, as we watch you with the flap jacket there and we can hear gunfire in the background and we are watching, of course, what was a very tense situation. What is the safety situation of you and our CNN crew?

RODGERS: I guess we are reasonably safe. We have got a big wall on this side, a big wall on that side. We are safe back there. Theoretically, gunmen from inside the church could shoot at us, but he would have to shoot a Kalashnikov, which is not a very good sniper rifle. It would be effective at this range, 100 to 150 meters.

But the problem for any snipers inside the church trying to shoot us is that they have to stick their heads up, and every time they do, the Israelis pop them off. An Israeli sniper picked off another Palestinian today. He was carried out on a stretcher.

Almost daily for the past several days, anytime a Palestinian inside that church sticks his head up, a Palestinian with a gun, the Israelis have got that church covered with every possible field of fire, and an Israeli sniper picks them off.

So this is not a safe place, but I feel reasonably confident where I am. Besides, I have got TV written all over the back of this, so if anybody shoots at me, they at least know what they are getting -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Walter, it seems like we are hearing a lot of yelling in the background, and also I can see somebody kind of walking in the back. Are those Israeli soldiers, about -- what -- 20 or 30 feet behind you?

RODGERS: But let me turn around and take a look. There is an Israeli murk of a tank, a main battle tank down there.

KAGAN: Right.

RODGERS: That is in the square. Actually, I don't see many people down there. There may be a few photographers taking shelter behind that tank. And I can assure you if I were on the square, I would be hunkered down behind that tank too. That's a good place to be in a war zone behind an Israeli murk of a tank.

Having said that, the shooting which I was reporting, oh, 15 minutes ago has now quieted down. It may take up again later this evening, but anytime somebody starts shooting there, the Israeli snipers on the roofs all about us zero in on whatever Palestinians stick their head up. It is a risky place to be. And that Manger Square behind me is indeed a free-fire zone. Where I am it is relatively safe -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Well, let's keep it that way. Walter Rodgers reporting to us from Bethlehem. Also thank you very much.

Now, the site where Walter is some people have been lucky enough to visit before the violence became too intense for tourism. This is a site that has a very long history.

And my partner, Leon Harris, is going to take a look at that for us right now -- Leon.

LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, right. Thanks, Daryn.

I think folks who just got a quick idea of just the kind of people that we do have out in the field working for us, when you can hear guys like Walter Rodgers talk about the fact that he is wearing TV signs all over him. He doesn't even care. He still has a job do, and we appreciate guys like you, Walter, if you are still listening.

All right. Now, let's take a closer, logistical look at where those fires broke out yesterday. As Walter reported, a couple of fires broke out yesterday, threatening one of Christianity's oldest and holiest structures. The Church of the Nativity is located in Bethlehem only about five miles or so southeast of Jerusalem.

Now, the church itself, as we have heard now, has not been affected by these fires. It was the adjoining structures that were damaged, the Franciscan Monastery, which is in the northwest corner of the complex, as you see here behind me on the screen, and the Greek Orthodox Monastery, which is down there over on the southeast portion of it.

Now, all of this happened just some 50 feet away from the actual church. The church though itself, it did survive yet again. A long history of this church has had of surviving through turmoil, built sometime back in the fourth century, experts believe around the year 333 if you want to be exact. This structure has withstood invader after invader, the Samaritans, the Persians, the Muslims, and at one point even the Crusaders.

It was almost completely destroyed, and the original basilica itself now it is in the shape of a cross, and it was actually constructed sometime by the emperor of Constantine. Now, he was the one who actually finished the process.

The main entrance into the complex, you might be interested to see this. You see down here at the bottom of the screen, the door of the nativity. You can barely make that out -- I'm sorry, the door of the humility. You can barely make that out there at the bottom of the screen.

Now, it has got two purposes. It does humble its visitors, because it's only about four feet high, as you see there with those two monks. I believe those are Franciscans who are standing on either side of it. Now, the door itself is about four feet high, but that was built to humble those who enter, and also to make sure that no other invaders could get in on horseback, one of the defenses that they did install there.

Now, what makes this church so sacred are the two alters in the grotto beneath the main level. Now, when you walk in and you face the altar in the center of the church down the main aisle, on your left you will find the spot which is celebrated as the birthplace of Jesus. You see it here on the screen. It's marked by a 14-point star, which is underneath the altar. You can barely make it out here in these pictures. It's kind of dark there.

Now, on the right of this scene, if you were to turn exactly around, if you were facing this altar and then turn exactly 180 degrees behind you is another altar constructed over what is believed to be the location of the manger in which the baby Jesus once lay.

Now, who controls this sacred place? Well, three different Christian denominations, the Armenian Church, the Greek Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. Throughout history, this church has willingly opened its doors to anyone seeking refuge, no matter the relation. This time though after last night, the church leaders are nervous that this church might be destroyed, and, Daryn, if you consider the fact that this is not just any time of the year for many people who have a close affinity to this church. This is Greek Orthodox Easter week. And as a matter of fact, tomorrow is the Greek Orthodox Good Friday.

So there are a lot of people who are very concerned about any damage that this structure might actually sustain.

KAGAN: Leon, thank you for that backgrounder -- very, very informative.

HARRIS: All right.

KAGAN: Thank you so much. It helps us appreciate more exactly what is taking place at the Church of the Nativity.

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