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CNN Talkback Live
Catholic Crisis Goes to Court; Is Cardinal Law a Flight Risk?; Are Middle School Girls Mean?
Aired May 07, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. Today, the Catholic crisis goes to court. One retired priest arraigned, and a cardinal ordered to give a deposition. Is Cardinal Law a flight risk? And what will he tell the court? Also, I want to hear from you about mean girls. Is there a cruel streak running through our middle schools these days? As if! Anyway, give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN and e-mail me at talkback@cnn.com. And here's what else we're talking about today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to see him feel the pain his victims are feeling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: A retired priest goes to court charged with repeatedly raping a young boy. Today, Paul Shanley faces a steep bail to keep him from fleeing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The court is setting bail in the amount of $750,000 cash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: Now concerns that the man accused of protecting Shanley could take flight. The court orders Cardinal Law to tell his story. Just what did he know and when did he know he it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why would you think I would allow the department to remove this child's sibling without my consent? Why would you even think that, and why would you try? What is the department hiding?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: Fury from the bench. A Florida judge is outraged over the case of Rilya Wilson, missing for more than a year. Now the governor wants an investigation. What's next, and where is Rilya? And are little princesses growing up to be mean queen bees? Meet an author who says middle school girls aren't all sugar and spice.
OK, there is a whole lot going on in Boston today. Retired priest Paul Shanley pleaded not guilty to rape charges and attorneys for several alleged victims are filing a motion to keep Cardinal Law in the area until he gives a deposition. Now joining us here to talk about this is Chuck Colbert. He is of the "National Catholic Reporter," joining us from Boston. Hi, Chuck.
CHUCK COLBERT, "NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER": Hello.
NEVILLE: Tell me this. In addition to the $750,000 bail posted in this -- or, I should say, exactly requested -- Hello, Arthel, I am with you. All right, sorry about that, Chuck -- in addition to the $750,000 bail, what other stipulations did the court place on the Paul Shanley case?
COLBERT: Well, he pleaded in the arraignment not guilty to the charges of rape -- 6-year-old -- and then -- I'm hearing some back talk in my...
NEVILLE: I understand how that works. It can throw you off, can't it?
COLBERT: It was based on one potential alleged victim, and the district attorney made the point that they were talking with other people, as well, and that there were many of the cases that were beyond the statute limitations. That's generally what happened.
NEVILLE: Let me just jump in here, and talk about the passports and that Paul Shanley had to give up his passport and things like that, talk about that for me.
COLBERT: He was -- apparently, according to the "Boston Herald," today reported that he gone to Thailand for a period of time, and returned, and the attorney for Shanley argued that because he had been at this residence in San Diego for three years, he was not a risk. And that he was older and, you know, was just simply not thinking of leaving the country.
NEVILLE: Let me ask you this now. Do you know if at this point has anyone posted bail for Paul Shanley, and...
COLBERT: No, the decision on that I think was postponed until tomorrow. I think it's being reviewed by the superior court in Middlesex County. He was arraigned in front of the district court and I understand that was delayed for final determination tomorrow or Thursday
NEVILLE: And at this point there is no talk of a trial date yet, right?
COLBERT: No.
NEVILLE: Yeah, and what about Cardinal Law? Now I don't know if you know this or not, but is there any sort of immunity or something that the Vatican can grant Cardinal Law so that he would be immune from the laws?
COLBERT: I understand that if he were to hold a state level department job, like an ambassadorship or such, that he would have diplomatic immunity. I understand too, that the judge, in ordering the deposition moved up to tomorrow morning, said that she was concerned about whether or not the Pope would call him back to Rome and for that reason she wanted to move this all up.
The other piece of this is that because of the shuffling and the reshuffling and the lost trust in this business with the finance council's vote to not go along with the settlement, it moved this all up very quickly, and she really felt, the judge felt, that he needed to answer some questions, and that while this agreement has been pending, a lot of time has been lost. So that's generally what is going on with the cardinal and the deposition, which is set for tomorrow in court. The judge will be there for questions and for objections as they arise.
NEVILLE: OK, Chuck, stand by for me for a moment, because there are so many questions surrounding this story, including what does this all mean for the Catholic church in Boston? And what is next for Cardinal Law.
We're gonna bring in Patrick Scully into the conversation. He's the director of communications for the Catholic League. And Richard Sipe, author of "Sex, Priests and Power." Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.
PATRICK SCULLY, DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Hi, Arthel, thank you for having me back.
NEVILLE: Patrick, good to see you. Patrick, help me clear up something here. OK, everybody wants to know -- Cardinal law is to be deposed tomorrow. Is there any way between now and then that the Vatican, the Pope, anybody can do something to get him out of this?
SCULLY: No, and the thought that he is going to take off to Rome any time soon is just rank speculation. In fact the story out of the Boston papers about how he was scheduled to go back to Rome before June is based on anonymous sources.
As a former reporter myself, I'm always careful about those. The deposition is moved up, the wheels of justice are turning. The cardinal will have his say, tell what he knows tomorrow in the deposition. So I don't think we have to worry about any sort of James Bond escaping in the middle of the night.
The cardinal is cooperating at this point. He has turned over thousands files on this guy Shanley, and I saw during the News Alert, Shanley's being arraigned -- I mean, this guy turns my stomach. There's not a Catholic in this country that isn't disgusted by this man and by what has happened in the scandal.
NEVILLE: Patrick, I am going to jump in there on you, because there are some people who are very, very disappointed in Cardinal Law, and perhaps disgusted by him, because in fact he has, you know, allegedly hidden this whole story for so many years, and so could possibly have avoided other victims from being hurt in all of this.
SCULLY: Well, that's a major problem and that's led to the speculation and the talk about his possible resignation. There's a real crisis of confidence of the people in the great city of Boston and the surrounding area about whether the cardinal can continue to lead.
That is not for the Catholic League to say, but I certainly think it is something that needs to be discussed. So yeah, we need some answers. I think the short answer as to why he didn't boot this guy as soon as he knew something was up, is because in a lot of ways the church didn't have the courage, didn't want confrontation, didn't want scandal, didn't want to rock the boat. But instead of not rocking the boat, they almost sank the ship. It's time to right it and get it on, that's what's going to happen tomorrow at the deposition and beyond.
Richard Sipe, what do you think of that? They did not want to rock the boat, they didn't want to create a scandal, did not want to tarnish the image of the church. These people were hurt. What do you think of all of this?
RICHARD SIPE, RETIRED CATHOLIC PRIEST: And he added, and almost sank the boat. He is very right and I think he is right on in his understanding of this, and what is going on at this time.
The point is that the problem is far bigger than Boston. I live out here he near Los Angeles and I know that what is coming up in Los Angeles is just as great if not greater than what happened in Boston.
And Cardinal Mahoney actually was the first cardinal to pose that I know of, in the United States, but it was not a case that where he was bishop, it was before -- activity before he was a cardinal, Cardinal Law's deposition is the first deposition of a cardinal of activity that was carried on while he was a cardinal. It is very significant. Very significant move.
NEVILLE: Chuck, let me get you in here before we go to a break. What do you think -- and you cover the Catholic Church -- what do you think is going to happen ultimately to the Catholic Church?
COLBERT: Well I am very encouraged by the laity's ability to differentiate between the leadership and the institutional pieces, the mistakes that were made and the saving truths of the faith. No doubt people are upset and discouraged and many people are long gone from the Catholic Church, but those who are staying want a voice and they also are not exiting at this point.
I think that the cardinal will answer questions, I think that we are still getting behind this, scandal, and the questions and answers will be numerous, it will play out in the press, in the court of public opinion, and you know, and among the Catholic laity and the faithful. I think we are just in the beginning stages of this.
NEVILLE: And everybody has their eyes on this. Chuck Colbert, thank you very much for that report.
Timothy, I know you are standing by. I have some people in the audience who would like to speak out. And Richard and Patrick, if you could stand by for me, we will talk a little bit more about this on this Catholic Church crisis, when we come back, so don't go my where.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK, there are a lot of players in this scandal, and this gets a little confusing. So, why don't we take a moment to try to sort it all out. Paul Shanley is a retired priest who was in court today. He's charged with raping a young boy. He was transferred to a parish in California in 1990, despite the allegations of sexual abuse. At least one alleged victim has filed a civil suit against Shanley.
Cardinal Bernard Law will be deposed tomorrow in another civil suit, this time dealing with the actions of defrocked priest, John Goeghan. Goeghan was convicted of sexual assault in January. He is currently in a Boston area jail; 86 of his alleged victims sued the Boston Archdiocese, which backed out of a proposed settlement last week.
Since that settlement was scrapped, the lawsuit is back in court today. And before I get to Timothy on the phone from Ohio, Patrick, help us to understand why the lawsuit is back in court, because in essence the victims had a contract, even though this was settled through an arbitrator there was a contract, and that is why the court has stepped in.
SKULLY: I think it was certainly a mistake for the archdiocese to back out of this deal. They negotiated in good faith, they had an agreement, they could have gone on and gotten past it. But the problem is that under canon law, according to my understanding of it, a settlement of that size has to be approved by the archdiocese finance council. The finance council said no, we are not going to have enough money for the other victims that come forward, therefore we are getting out of the deal. I think it was a terrible mistake. The cardinal said he wished it had gone forward...
NEVILLE: Because didn't Cardinal Law sign off on this?
SKULLY: He did, and again, it makes you wonder what kind of leadership Cardinal Law has. He is the one that picked the finance council that is now turning him down and it is the first time he has ever been rejected by his own council, so I think it is unfortunate that that happened.
NEVILLE: And don't the finance council members understand though, that we have a document here, we have a contract. So now it is no longer between Cardinal Law and the finance council.
SKULLY: Nothing is final until it is approved in court in the deal, and that is why they have backed out. But I think there is still question as to what is going to happen there. The a concern is there wouldn't be any more money left for the other victims. That is a legitimate concern, but my point would be, find the money somewhere else. If you have to mortgage some of the property, then do so. Listen, I am a great defender of the Catholic church from the Catholic League, but we have to do what is right by the victims. You cannot stiff the victims again, which is apparently what is happening with backing out of the deal.
NEVILLE: And Patrick, how would the other Catholic parishioners who are putting money in that little basket every Sunday, how can they be assured that that money in no way will go to defend any of the sexual abuse cases?
SKULLY: There is certainly concern about that in the Boston area. In fact, there is a couple of parishes that are distancing themselves a little bit from the cardinal, so their donations don't go down. Let's not forget that the Catholic church does wonderful things in society and it would be too bad if all of the people that need the help of the church are somehow penalized because of the bigger problem in this scandal. We really need to fix this and get back to what the church does, which is be the greatest social engine in our society, and I think we will head towards that. I think we will come out of it stronger and better, but we still have a ways to go.
NEVILLE: Richard?
SIPE: I agree with Patrick entirely, and I have been an expert witness so far in 56 cases, and most of the these have settled, and there have been some very large settlements and never, never has this question come up.
I cannot understand the maneuver. I mean they are being million wise, and billion foolish to pretend that this is going to solve the problem or even help in the long run, I think is absolutely facetious, because it absolutely turns people off and makes them think again that the church does not care about victims, it only cares about money and its own power.
NEVILLE: Let me clarify something. So you are settling is a problem or sends the wrong message -- settling out of court?
SIPE: No, no. I am saying that withdrawing from this settlement the decision that they made, I have never seen a settlement interfered with by a finance committee across the United States. That is what I am saying, and what they are doing, acting like businessmen in this, rather than moral leaders, I think is so devastating to the church.
SKULLY: I think, Arthel, if I can get in on that quickly.
NEVILLE: Hang on for me, Patrick, I promised Timothy, I know he is standing by. His ears are probably hot. Go ahead, Timothy.
CALLER: I have a real concern here. Has anyone really took a look at Cardinal Law and investigated him. It seems to me for someone so concerned of hiding the issues and information, perhaps someone needs to look at Cardinal Law and perhaps, there is a problem, there with him also involved.
NEVILLE: Richard, I would like to ask you then, what do you think should happen to Cardinal Law?
SIPE: Well, I do not think it is a personal thing with Cardinal Law. It is a system thing, and the question that Timothy is asking
NEVILLE: But Cardinal Law is a big problem of that system.
SIPE: Yes, but hold on. What Timothy is asking is very important, but not just for Law, but for the whole system. How much blackmail goes on underneath the system. In this sense, I know this about you sexually, and you know this about me sexually, so we won't do anything and we will just keep things down. Now this is what is merging as a pattern, a pattern of essential blackmail, and so you don't know how high that goes, or who is protecting who. So I think that Timothy's question is getting added in a very specific way.
NEVILLE: OK, let me bring Patrick in, because, Patrick, how much do you think Cardinal Law is covering up?
SKULLY: Well, I think it is clear that Cardinal Law did not handle it in any way properly, but let's be clear about something else. Mr. Sipe is alluding to a bigger problem, there is a bigger root, and it is because the people involved in all this refuse to follow the teachings of the Catholic church. If they had stood by what the church stands for and stood by their vows they voluntarily took, we wouldn't be in this mess, so yes, it is a mess, but it is not the teachings the Catholic church that caused it, and we need to make that distinction.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Excuse me, what about Cardinal Law, Patrick?
SKULLY: I think that there is going to be more -- the deposition tomorrow will find out a lot more. Right now we are just speculating on blackmail and anything else and sometimes speculation is dangerous. I think we will get some answers starting tomorrow.
COLBERT: May I respond to that question?
NEVILLE: Oh, Chuck, you are still here. I thought you left. Hey, come on in. Great.
COLBERT: I am, yes. I think the question raises a very interesting question, or point, and it is not just the personality of the cardinal. Other bishops who were auxiliary bishops at the time and are now bishops in other places, as the Shanley documents have been revealed, these show higher levels of involvement of knowledge, and so it is systemic, but it is also the leadership, the broad leadership that Cardinal Law mustered to either handle or mishandle this scandal, and I think that we will see more of that come out in court.
It is not clear. The blackmail and bribery point that Dr. Sipe is a very legitimate one. the documents that I looked at and the commentary in "The Globe" and "The Herald" has traced all kinds of paper and letters and memos that would suggest that. Is not clear to what extent and who was blackmailed either the late Cardinal Medaras (ph) or Cardinal Law. Now, that is not clear and it may come out.
NEVILLE: Chuck, are you intimating that some of this could go as high as the Vatican maybe sending down a little coverup...
COLBERT: I have -- I don't have any knowledge of that, that has not a piece of this. The cardinal as I understand it is the spiritual leader of the archdiocese and runs it. The subsidiary is a very common principle in the church here, and things are run at the lowest possible level. I cannot imagine that the Vatican was involved in this, though now, given what the pope's suggested...
NEVILLE: People could not have imagined Cardinal Law would have been involved in this.
COLBERT: That's true. People have a very hard time with that.
NEVILLE: Yes, Joanne?
JOANNE: Hi, I would like to say something about all of this, the talk about the money and the blackmail and all of this stuff that goes on with everything that's happened and it is like, do we take time to look down at who this has happened to and the moral issue about what are the Catholic priests and the Catholic church itself supposed to be teaching our young. And this is the future of the church and...
NEVILLE: Right, and you feel that they did not protect the young the way they he should have.
JOANNE: They didn't protect them, and so now, the thing of it is, they made criminal acts. They need to be treated as criminals. If they go to jail, and when they do get out, rate them as a pedophile and put them out, the talk of money is not helping the kids.
NEVILLE: Right, exactly, have to keep the kids in mind, thank you, Joanne for standing up. And you are Catholic, right?
JOANNE: No.
NEVILLE: You're not? What religion are you?
JOANNE: Nondenominal.
NEVILLE: All right. We can work with that. Listen, our phones are lighting up on this subject, so we are going to talk about this again after the break. I've got, I think, Ted is standing by in Ontario. Ted, don't go anywhere. I will talk to you and I have some audience members that I promised I would let on as well. So TALKBACK LIVE continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody. I'm Arthel Neville. We are talking about the Catholic priest scandal, and Ted in Ontario is standing by. Go ahead, Ted.
CALLER: Hi, thanks. I think that we are missing the boat on this. Cardinal Law should be arrested and that should be done today. He has been an accomplice to this crime knowing that he's got a priest that is out there raping young children. There is no way out of this, he has to be arrested. He is basically driving the get away car.
NEVILLE: Thank you, Ted, for your comments.
Patrick, that is what everybody keeps saying and keeps asking about. And I don't think anybody understands why Cardinal Law is kind of hanging out at his office about, and I do not think that anybody understands why Cardinal Law is hanging out at his office doing business as usual?
Can you shed light on that, Patrick?
SKULLY: I am not sure why Cardinal Law handled things the way he did, but the fact is, in Massachusetts there is no law against not reporting a crime. So was he negligent? We have to discuss that, but was he criminally responsible? I am not a lawyer or a prosecutor so I don't know, but it is true that in Massachusetts if you see a crime being reported (sic) you do not technically have to turn the person in.
But that gets away from the main point for me. The main point is that this was handled terribly because they didn't want confrontation. They put avoiding scandal ahead of the victims and then they stiffed the victims by backing out of the settlement. That is where it lies for me.
NEVILLE: John, form New York.
JOHN: I had really two questions. One, who is paying for the legal defense of this priest? And two, did they set aside any John Doe's for future litigation in the legal paperwork?
SCULLY: Well, Paul Shanley has a public defender. So, the state is paying for it. There are other people that they are going to bring forward, according to Martha Coakley, the DA in Massachusetts. So, the church isn't paying for that, if that is the suggestion.
COLBERT: There are more than 100 victims.
SCULLY: Yes, there are many more. There are more people -- they are still to come.
NEVILLE: OK, Jason from Texas.
JASON: Call me crazy, but I don't believe that anyone, diplomat or priest, should be immune to the law. Rape is unacceptable. And if anyone should be held to a standard, it's our government leaders and our church leaders.
SCULLY: That is why he is being prosecuted. He is not above the law. And chances are, according to the evidence they have, he is going to go to jail, and rightly so.
NEVILLE: OK, Ann Marie (ph), you are a Catholic, correct? ANN MARIE: Yes, I am.
Really, all I had to say was that I think it is very important for people in general to recognize that this is a church that is made up of, not just men, but women and children, and that the people that made these mistakes were men. And they made these mistakes. And they were terrible mistake.
NEVILLE: And your point about that would be?
ANN MARIE: No one is denying that.
But we need to remember that this is a church that has been around in existence for 2,000 years. And it will survive. And we will get through this. And I just want to say that the responsibility will be taken. And, like the man on television said...
NEVILLE: I got your point. You are offering support to your fellow Catholic people, saying, stay strong. We will survive this, basically.
ANN MARIE: But I am not saying we are not guilty. I'm just saying that mistakes were made.
NEVILLE: OK. Thank you.
COLBERT: She's raising a very interesting point.
(CROSSTALK)
COLBERT: Because there were significant numbers of women who came forward and were persistently raising this to the cardinal, even to Cardinal Law himself. And they were apparently ignored. There was one vivid example where one woman kept persisting. And she made calls to the chancery. And it was reported that she was put on hold for minutes on this. So, it is significant
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Chuck, I read that she was -- when her call came through to the chancery, that the order was to keep her hanging on for a long time, basically wear her down until she hangs up. That's ridiculous.
COLBERT: And also there are more women. There are more women who are coming forward as victims. And that I think is the other part of this that hasn't fully played out yet. More women are coming forward. And I would expect there to be others.
NEVILLE: Oh yes. There are many layers to this story that will be peeled away as the days go by.
I want to bring in Theresa, who is standing by on the phone.
Go ahead, Theresa.
CALLER: Hi.
My aunt was a nun in Oregon. And my husband has an aunt that is a nun in Rome. And we are Catholic. And this is so disgusting what has gone on in the Catholic Church that we are no longer going to be Catholic.
SIPE: OK. That is one solution that many people make.
On the other hand, I don't think the majority of Catholics are going to do that. I think what is happening is that many people are energized by this and say, "We are going to take a greater stand. We are going to take a greater voice and authority in this. We are going to demand greater accountability."
And I think it is part of the reformation of the church and a kind of purification of the church. I do think -- I can understand if victims turn away, that they can't stand the sight of any priest because of what they have gone through. And families have suffered a great deal.
But I think that the majority of Catholics now support the victims and say: "Look, we are sticking with you. We know what you have been through. And let's change this church. Let's change the way it operates."
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Richard Sipe, thank you very much. The audience is applauding for your remarks.
Patrick Scully, thank you. And I'm sure -- Patrick, don't be frustrated. I'm sure I'll have you on again and we will talk more about this subject.
And, Chuck Colbert, thank you for your report, OK?
COLBERT: You're welcome. You're welcome.
NEVILLE: All right, when we come back, we're switching gears: means girls in middle school, what every parent and teacher needs to hear. We'll talk to the author of "Queen Bees and Wannabes." And you won't want to miss this one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK, everybody. Welcome back.
Now, for the most part, young girls don't end up in fistfights or playground scuffles. But our next guest says they still find ways to hurt each other. In fact, she says other girls may be the toughest part of middle school.
Rosalind Wiseman is the author of "Queen Bees and Wannabes: Helping Your Daughter Survive Cliques, Gossip, Boyfriends and Other Realities of Adolescence."
Welcome, Rosalind.
ROSALIND WISEMAN, AUTHOR, "QUEEN BEES AND WANNABES": Thank you for having me.
NEVILLE: All right, now give us some definition clarification here first of all. Describe a typical queen bee.
WISEMAN: Oh, that's the girl that can be really scary to other girls.
NEVILLE: Like intimidating and...
WISEMAN: Intimidating. It's like you are frightened into liking her. You don't have a choice. You have to like her, because she has got so much power.
NEVILLE: Well, what kind of power can she have in middle school?
WISEMAN: Oh, death stares, shunning girls. She can decide that a girl doesn't fit into the group. She can decide that a girl that is targeted that is outside the group, completely outside the social hierarchy of the school, doesn't belong.
NEVILLE: So, then, that means, if you don't belong, then you become a part of the wanna-bes.
WISEMAN: Well, I think, to a certain extent, some girls look at this situation and say, "I want nothing do with it." But the reality is, is that when they walk down the hallway, that is what they are being teased about. That is how they are being humiliated. And that's the most important thing.
NEVILLE: Why, because they are not part the in-crowd?
WISEMAN: Well, to a certain extent, all girls are dealing with this.
Even if you're in a position of power -- the closer you get to the seat of power, the less freedom have you to move. And so those girls sometimes can feel like they are living a lie. Their social status is tied to who they are. And so they don't take the risks that they should, which, ironically, some girls who don't fit in can. They can be in the group that is not cool. They can be in a class that is maybe too hard, that they think they want to challenge themselves.
The girls who are in the higher positions of the social status have the hardest times sometimes. And I know it looks like they don't.
NEVILLE: No, no, I understand what you are saying, though, about that.
Let's talk about the RMGs, the really mean girls.
WISEMAN: Uh-huh. Those are often the queen bees as well. But it can also be -- I have got different positions that girls play, but I really want to say it is a starting place for the discussion, because, otherwise, it comes across as stereotyping. And it really is a place where girls and parents and administrators can start talking about this, because this has really been under the radar of everybody. And I think one the things to really talk about...
(CROSSTALK)
WISEMAN: Yes, go ahead.
NEVILLE: Do you think it's been under the radar? I mean, this has been happening since day one. I have to tell you that these...
WISEMAN: Oh, sure.
NEVILLE: This idea of cliques and, "Who is going to be in this group, who is not going be in that group, and, "You don't wear the right clothes, so you can't be in my group," this has been going on forever.
However, I do ask you what prompted you to want to write a book about this and teach classes on this.
WISEMAN: Well, I started as a person who was teaching violence- prevention education.
And one of the things that I realized is, is that the root causes of why girls were vulnerable to violence was the things that they were learning from girls and other girls, that they were the enforcers of a very strict set of rules, and that the bullies oftentimes were girls who had high social status.
And it was -- let me go back to what you had said before. Yes, it has been going on for a while. But, at the same time, we have not recognized it for what it is, which is bullying, and that it is the small humiliation that takes place in schools every day that lead to larger issues like Columbine.
NEVILLE: Britney from Georgia, how old are you, Britney?
BRITNEY: Thirteen.
NEVILLE: And you have what to say about this subject?
BRITNEY: Well, a lot of times, girls, they will bully into other girls to come out of their group because they will feel them like as a threat. Like, you will say: "Oh, that girl may be stealing all my friends. I don't want her around me. I want her out of this group."
NEVILLE: Has any of this ever happened to you?
BRITNEY: Yes.
NEVILLE: Tell me. BRITNEY: Well, I used to go to a school in North Georgia. And me and this girl really did not get along. And she was one of those popular girls. And me and her got into some really big fights about it.
NEVILLE: And so then that made you unpopular with everybody else?
BRITNEY: Well, not really. Sometimes you can pull through it, like you have already made those friends, and no matter what they say, they will be your friend.
NEVILLE: But when you were going through this with this girl who was, in essence, bullying you and tried to intimidate you, how did you feel? Like, when you were preparing to go to school, did you start thinking about this?
BRITNEY: It would really make me mad. I would go to school, start really mad. And I would try to avoid her. But those situations, you always can't avoid.
WISEMAN: Can I say something about that?
NEVILLE: Yes, because this is what are talking about. This is beyond bullying. And I heard your comment about how it leads to something about like situations like Columbine, because people who feel like they are the underdog, they are always ridiculed, and they have no recourse, sometimes they do take drastic measures such as that situation.
But in this case with Britney, she should not, or any student should not have go to school feeling mad because they are going to run into the popular bully.
WISEMAN: Well, and also -- let's take it even back less dramatic than Columbine.
When you are having the experience that that young woman is experiencing, when you go to math class, you can't concentrate on math. You are concentrating on how you are going to walk down the school hallway. So, for people who think, "Well, this is just girls gossiping; it's not a big deal," it actually is on a day-to-day basis, because it is hard for girls to concentrate in school when all of this drama is going on.
NEVILLE: Absolutely. And it is drama. And there are some drama queens out there.
WISEMAN: Yes, there are.
NEVILLE: Yes, there are.
WISEMAN: Girls love it.
NEVILLE: "Queen Bees and Wannabes," what can and should a parent do about them? Our guest has some tips coming up next. And we have a lot of people who want to talk about this.
So, please don't go anywhere. We'll see you in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK, welcome back, everybody.
We're talking to the author of "Queen Bees and Wannabes," about cliques and meanness in middle school.
And, Rosalind, at what point should a parent get involved and maybe be concerned about some things that might be happening at school?
WISEMAN: Well, I think one of the things that is most important for parents to realize is that this is occurring in all schools, private schools, public schools, parochial schools, schools in every neighborhood. This is really going on.
And it is important stuff, because -- I am a parent. And I feel like, if I can raise my kid to stand up for what is right or to hold themselves accountable, then that is the most important thing that I can do.
NEVILLE: But what I'm trying to understand, Rosalind, is -- I mean, come on, these things happen in schools.
WISEMAN: Right.
NEVILLE: And parents should not run to the aid of their child all of the time.
WISEMAN: Absolutely. Absolutely.,
NEVILLE: I'm asking, at what point should they be concerned?
WISEMAN: Sure.
Well, I think -- here is what I tell parents. What I tell parents is, don't be in denial that your kid could be mean, because parents do not want to believe that their wonderful, lovely child could be mean.
Now, if their kid is targeted, one of the things that I first say is, what is most important is to teach your kid to stand up for herself. So, I have four steps that I really encourage kids, and, in fact, anybody when they are dealing with conflict as a strategy. And the book is really for parents to walk their way through how to help their kids in exactly the situation that you are talking about.
NEVILLE: OK, we get it, so we will get the book.
Christine -- we are going to get some people now to share some stories with us.
And, Christine, what is your story about all of this? CHRISTINE: OK, well, earlier, Britney was talking about how mean popular girls are -- were mean to her at one time. But, going to a smaller school, if one girl is mean to anybody else, then all the other girls are going to, like, shun her away and she is going to become an outcast if she is too mean.
NEVILLE: Good. So, mean girls don't rule. Nice girls rule at your school.
CHRISTINE: Right.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much.
WISEMAN: Can I give you the four...
NEVILLE: Yes, go ahead. Go ahead, Rosalind.
WISEMAN: Yes, let me give you, because I want make sure that parents feel like there is a strategy that they can use.
The first step is to have the girl write down exactly what has happened that she doesn't like. And she could not just be the target. She could be the bystander who is seeing what is going on and not liking it. So, write down what is going on, so you can choose your battles.
And the next step is to confront the bully. Unless you feel physically in danger, I strongly suggest that kids, as a first step, should be confronting the bully, but not in front of the friends, because then they will posture and they will front and they will do all that kind of stuff and it won't work. So, you confront the person one-on-one.
And the third step is, you describe exactly what you don't like. The next step is, you request what you want to happen instead. And then the last step is -- and this is a fuzzy-warm as I get -- is that you affirm either the person -- like "I get to walk down the hallway in peace and you get to walk down the hallway in peace" -- or, you know, kids can get into fights and still want to be friends. So, you can say: "Look, this friendship is really important to me, but I cannot have you calling me a slut behind my back."
NEVILLE: OK, hold on for me. I have got a couple of girls here.
Quickly tell me your stories, OK, Tara?
TARA: In fifth grade -- Heather and I are in the same class. And there is always people who are normally in catfights. Like, one day they will be the best of friends. And the next day, they are like, "What are you doing around me?"
NEVILLE: And how does that make you feel?
TARA: It makes a lot of people feel like really, really upset, because there's been a lot of girls who spread rumors about other girls. NEVILLE: And that is just not nice, right?
OK, I am going to stand here with you guys as we toss to break.
Tell everybody to come back after this break.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come back after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK, everybody, Rosalind Wiseman, I want to thank you for joining us here.
We wanted to bring you this update in the case of 5-year-old missing girl Rilya Wilson.
Our Susan Candiotti spoke with the little girl's grandmother in Florida this afternoon. And here is what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You don't know where Rilya is.
GERALYN GRAHAM, RILYA WILSON'S GRANDMOTHER: No, I don't. But I know that they have her somewhere. And I don't know if the workers placed her somewhere they shouldn't have. But I don't think she is dead.
CANDIOTTI: You think she is out there somewhere?
GRAHAM: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. And I know it's got to come out. They can't hide a child forever. They can't do that. You cannot hide a child forever.
So, I know she is out there. And I know that wherever she is, I am just praying they are giving her the help that she needs to be a normal little girl. She is such a pretty little child. She's -- I don't know how any society can justify in leaving any child or kid for as long as they did. They just left her there, like she was nothing. They just left her there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE: We are going to have more on Rilya's story tomorrow.
We are out of time for today, but we will see you tomorrow. I'm Arthel Neville.
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