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Q&A with Jim Clancy

How Will Israel Respond to Latest Suicide Attack?

Aired May 08, 2002 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM CLANCY, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Israeli P.M. Ariel Sharon returns home to an emergency session of his inner cabinet. To be decided: Israel's response to a suicide bomb that killed 15 Israelis.

Despite claims of Hamas of responsibility, Mr. Sharon blames Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. For his part, Arafat condemns the bombing and orders Palestinian security forces to prevent further terror attacks against Israelis.

The United States says the terrorist act puts prospects for peace in the Middle East at risk, but a way to move forward has to be found.

On this edition of Q&A, where is the way forward?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(on camera): Hello and welcome once again to Q&A. I'm Jim Clancy.

The situation in the Middle East is, as usual, tense. Tuesday's suicide bombing saw a grim Ariel Sharon returning to Israel from his meetings in Washington. All eyes now on the Israeli government, which will decide in the coming hours its next move. It's holding emergency meetings.

Some Israelis have called for harsh retaliation. Others are urging Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat be expelled.

Just before the cabinet meetings, we talked with one of the long-time proponents of peace in the Middle East, Israeli Foreign Min. Shimon Peres. Here's that interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: There's going to be a security cabinet meeting?

SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI FOREIGN MIN.: Yes.

CLANCY: Is Yasser Arafat going to be expelled?

PERES: I don't think so. You know, we have a commitment not to expel him and we shall respect it. I don't think it's either wise or useful to do so.

CLANCY: Does this government believe that Yasser Arafat is the sole political and armed force among the Palestinians? Have ministers, like yourself, come to believe that he is in complete control of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, even every element of Fatah?

PERES: We are a democratic country, and we have to respect the elections of the other people as well, not only our own. The fact is that Arafat was elected by the Palestinian people and to the best of my knowledge he remains the most popular leader among them.

We cannot replace him and we cannot (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and there is no guarantee that if somebody else will be elected we will be better off.

CLANCY: But the real focus of the question, Mr. Foreign Minister, is whether you and other cabinet ministers believe that Arafat really is in charge of bombings like the one that occurred while Ariel Sharon was meeting with President Bush. Does he have that much control? Would it be in his interest? Did he do it?

PERES: I think he has to try to prevent the acts of terror, and I think by his sheer voice and strength he can do a great deal in the direction of prevention.

And we feel that until now he didn't do enough, actually didn't lift a finger, to prevent that. That's the problem.

Now, what we can do, and we are doing, and I think Sharon also spoke about it with the president of the United States, is to change the policy. Namely, number one, that he will establish a central control, a central authority, over all the different armed groups.

As long as there will be four and five, each of them shooting in a different direction, each of them destroying any reasonable agenda, Arafat cannot be really performing as he should.

So first call, and I think the president agreed to it, is for the Palestinians to take charge of their own arms and their own groups.

CLANCY: Do you think that given the destruction of the infrastructure of the Palestinian Authority, all of the police bases, or most of them, having been hit by Israeli strikes, he's capable of doing that?

PERES: Well, we didn't touch, for example, Gaza. Nothing was destroyed there in the way of police stations. And still I think Arafat controls something like 30,000 policemen. They are on his payroll. He is their commander. And he should issue clear orders to them.

You know, we didn't say that we should judge Arafat by the results, but we did say that we should watch his efforts, and we are dissatisfied with the lack of effort which was shown until now.

CLANCY: Clearly, P.M. Sharon is saying more forcefully than ever that there will be no negotiations, no talk of a Palestinian state, until Israel's security is absolutely assured. Does this mean the official Israeli position for this government is that the terrorist have veto power over any negotiations?

PERES: You know, we are a coalition government. It's not a secret. And we have more than one view. Even what you are quoting from Sharon says, that there is a possibility for a Palestinian state, but for that terror should be stopped.

Terror should be stopped anyway. And I think that most of us do agree that the Palestinian state is inevitable, and maybe it can be the best thing for the future of Israel itself.

Morally, we don't want to govern the life of the Palestinians. Strategically, it is costly and unnecessary. I believe good relations are better than any good gun or any good tank, and that's what we have to achieve.

CLANCY: Is it time for Palestinians and Israelis to negotiation, in secret if necessary, through elections, through acts of terror, through occupation or incursions, to try to reach the outline of a final peace deal that could then be presented to the people on both sides?

PERES: Well, the whole government, including the prime minister, Mr. Sharon, have agreed that even while there are acts of terror, we have to talk and negotiate in order to stop terror.

Terror will not be stopped just by answering fire with fire, and we are ready to talk. And now there is even, you know, more or less an agenda. Namely, to have an international or regional conference in a matter of a couple of months or something like it. And there we are ready to meet with the Palestinians, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Moroccans, the Saudis, and the so-called Quartet, which is a very good structure, including the United States as a leader, united Europe as a participant, Russia, and the United Nations.

I think it may be a very effective body to impress Arafat with things that he needs anyway for his own sake and for the best thing for the Palestinian people.

CLANCY: You've said there are Palestinians that you can sit down and negotiate with, and there are Israelis, like yourself, who have credibility with the Palestinian side. There are still forces for peace, still forces for coexistence on all sides here. But what's it going to take for them to lead everyone else out of this abyss?

PERES: Let me answer this question (AUDIO GAP).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: We apologize for that, we obviously have a technical problem. We hope to bring you the rest of that interview momentarily. We're going to try to fix the problem. We'll be right back after this short break, perhaps hearing more, we hope, with Shimon Peres, the foreign minister of Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRESIDENT: Israel will fight anyone who tries to threaten these values. Israeli will fight anyone who tries through suicide terrorism to sow fear. Israel will fight. Israel will triumph. And when victory prevails, Israel will make peace.

HANAN ASHRAWI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: The question is to deal with the real causes, to end this escalation, to end the occupation, and to stop dealing with the effects. Deal with the causes.

Very clearly, Sharon is going to use this as a pretext in order to escalate in a massive and irresponsible way that will produce even more violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Welcome back to Q&A.

We were talking with Foreign Min. Shimon Peres just a few moments ago. We had recorded it earlier on videotape. There was a technical problem.

We want to resume that interview now. We want you to hear everything that the foreign minister had to say just before he goes into that crucial security cabinet meeting.

We asked him, as both sides, the people on both sides who want peace, have seen all of the violence, seen an end to negotiations, what can they do now to lead everyone else out of this predicament.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PERES: Well, the whole government including the prime minister, Mr. Sharon, have agreed that even while there are acts of terror, we have to talk, to negotiate, in order to stop terror.

Terror will not be stopped just by answering fire with fire, and we are ready to talk. And now there is even, you know, more or less an agenda. Namely, to have an international or regional conference in a matter of a couple of months or something like it. And there we are ready to meet with the Palestinians, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Moroccans, the Saudis, and the so-called Quartet, which is a very good structure, including the United States as a leader, united Europe as a participant, Russia, and the United Nations.

I think it may be a very effective body to impress Arafat with things that he needs anyway for his own sake and for the best thing for the Palestinian people.

CLANCY: You've said there are Palestinians that you can sit down and negotiate with, and there are Israelis, like yourself, who have credibility with the Palestinian side. There are still forces for peace, still forces for coexistence on all sides here. But what's it going to take for them to lead everyone else out of this abyss?

PERES: Let me answer this question very clearly. I think most of the Israelis, all of them, and maybe even most of the Palestinians, are supporting peace.

The problem in Israel, and that's the reason why the camp of peace suffered such a great defeat in the last election, they say we are for peace, but we don't have a partner.

With the Quartet joining in the talks and the negotiations, and being able to offer and guarantee an agreement, maybe we have a chance to establish a new partnership.

Today, the talks are among the three, not just the two of us. We are not just the Palestinians and the Israelis, but the Quartet that represents the international desire, the international policy, and they can really help and guarantee, and I'm all for it.

It is done not because they are looking for a role in our conflict, but because the conflict became globalized. You know, once you have missiles, the differences are ballistic, not geographic. Once you are suffering from terror, terror doesn't stop at borders.

And finally, once the conflict in the Middle East was making its living on the Cold War, nobody wants to have a Cold War because of the conflict in the Middle East.

So I think there is a chance to harmonize, make offers, give guarantees, and help the parties to come together.

CLANCY: President Clinton has said it is time to put international peacekeepers into the Middle East. Do you agree with that, in one way or another?

PERES: Well, I would think that armies cannot replace agreements. There is maybe a way to talk about observers or armies or (UNINTELLIGIBLE) once you have an agreement. Otherwise, what are they going to observe, a disagreement?

What are they going to defend? Lies that don't exist?

So I believe agreement first, and then all other means to watch the agreement later on.

CLANCY: Yitzhak Rabin said enough blood and tears, enough. And some Palestinians, and yes, even some Israelis, say not yet enough. What can the United States, the Europeans, the Quartet, including the Arab states as well, do right now to help the former overcome the latter?

PERES: I think deep in the heart of all the people, they know it's enough blood and enough suffering, and more blood and more suffering will not help to any of the parties, and clearly will make the life of the young generation miserable, totally unnecessary.

You know, if you are going to really try to have a good picture of the Middle East via x-rays, not via camera, you will discover that there is a solid majority to bring an end to the conflict right away, and deep in the heart, the people know even the cost of such a compromise, the cost of peace.

CLANCY: Are you going to have to go into this cabinet meeting and fight retribution?

PERES: I'm going as a cabinet member, and I shall support anything which is necessary for self-defense, and nothing more. And I think this will be the prevailing spirit in the cabinet.

CLANCY: Shimon Peres, our thanks to you for being with us on Q&A.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): As Israeli Foreign Min. Shimon Peres just told us, decisions must now be made. Some of the first ones, the Israeli cabinet must decide what happens next. What response will it take? Will it be appropriate?

Many nations are waiting to see what those decisions will be. One group who waits, the Arab League.

With us on the telephone now is Arab League Sect. Gen. Amre Moussa.

Mr. Secretary General, we heard there, outlined from Shimon Peres, a vision for a way forward. No one can see it clearly now, but from the Arab side, there is a vision as well, isn't there?

AMRE MOUSSA, ARAB LEAGUE SECT. GEN.: Yes indeed. We are ready on the Arab side, as we have shown unanimously in Beirut, to put an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict in accordance with the resolutions accepted by both parties, resolutions of the Security Council, and the principles of Madrid.

I agree with what Shimon Peres has said, that the majority of the Arab people and the Israeli people would like to see peace prevailing today rather than tomorrow, and that we have the necessary methodology to support any meaningful and positive steps towards that peace.

We are faced with violence and counter-violence. We are faced with foreign military occupation and resistance to this occupation.

So the problem emanates from the fact that there is an Israeli army occupation, occupying the Palestinian territories, and indeed applying very severe measures against civilian populations with siege, with massive killings, and so on.

This has to stop. And we are ready as we have shown in that initiative that the time has come for a major political step forward.

This needs an honest broker and an honest commitment to peace. This peace will have to be a just peace, not just an arrangement for putting an end to the military conflict between the two parties. We need to move forward with a clear goal. A clear goal that the conflict will have to come to an end.

Enough is enough. We don't need more bloodshed, but we need an agreement based on what the international community has stated in the resolutions of the security council or the conclusion of the Madrid conference...

CLANCY: Along that road, Amre Moussa, do the heads of the Arab states need to stand up and come out and condemn suicide bombings? Or do you think -- do suicide bombings help in reaching this goal at all or hinder it?

MOUSSA: The question is not suicide bombing. The question is -- the whole situation is very negative.

We are faced with foreign military occupation. We are faced with a resistance.

CLANCY: We've heard all that.

MOUSSA: There have been attacks against civilians on both sides, something that we do not want to see anymore of it, but we have to move with an honest plan to move ahead.

The question is, if there is a violent action, there will be a reaction, then a reaction to this reaction. This is a chain of events that we have to put an end to.

CLANCY: So are you saying that you don't have any solution, that it is chain oriented? There's a suicide bombing in Israel, we now anticipate there's going to be a response by Israeli against the Palestinians. Whether it's the Palestinian Authority, Yasser Arafat personally or Gaza and Hamas we really don't know, but there will be a response.

And you say there's no way to stop it?

MOUSSA: That is what -- what I'm saying is that we have to put an end to all that. But to put an end -- in order to save civilians on both sides. In fact, we have to save the peace itself.

So the time has come for a plan to move ahead politically with the goal of establishing a viable Palestinian state and a cease fire, immediate cease fire, and protection for the Palestinians.

We need observers. We need people to get in from a third party to make sure that both parties will move ahead without being threatened by either the Israeli military army in the occupied territories or the retaliation to that.

I say so, but I wish to underline that we want to save civilians. We don't want civilians to be harmed by this conflict. As much as we can. But when you talk about civilians, you have to talk about civilians on both sides, not to pay attention to one side only.

CLANCY: All right. We heard Shimon Peres there talking about how at one period in history it was the Cold War between east and west that really fueled a lot of the tensions across the Middle East. But now the situation is reversed. It is precisely the Palestinian question, the problem between Israelis and Arabs, that may be fueling the terrorism that is seen in so many other countries.

MOUSSA: Well, the situation itself in the occupied territories and within the framework of the Arab-Israeli conflict is going from bad to worse. And if we don't stop this, we will be faced with even more serious situation in the occupied territories, around the occupied territories, and perhaps across the region.

What we want to do is to be faithful and to be honest in calling a spade a spade. There is a case of foreign military occupation, which we want to put an end to, immediately, because if there is -- as long as there is foreign military occupation, there will be resistance, there will be violence, and the violence is committed by both sides, because of the fact that the tanks, the Israeli soldiers, the settlers, all of them, are sowing havoc in the Palestinian life, in the occupied territories.

We want to put an end to that. How can we put an end to it without a clear political plan, with a clear time table, based on what we have agreed on.

We, on the Arab side, have been very clear that we are interested in putting an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to put it behind us, and to have normal relations between Arabs and Israelis provided that Israel will agree to faithfully implement the resolutions that call on them to withdraw from the occupied territories and to accept a viable Palestinian state, and then within this framework, we solve the questions of Jerusalem, of refugees, of borders, of security.

In fact, the security of both sides, including in particular Israel...

CLANCY: Mr. Amre Moussa, you have been working in Arab diplomatic circles literally for decades throughout this peace process. Tell us, do you believe that Yasser Arafat has control over Hamas? He has control over Islamic Jihad? What is the reality there, sir?

MOUSSA: Yes. OK. If we enable Yasser Arafat to perform and to lead and not to put him in an isolation for weeks and then call on him to do more, we can't do that. If the man is not enabled to perform, to lead, by the presence of foreign military occupation, the army that is sowing havoc, as we have seen in Jenin, in Nablus and other cities -- and you call on the man to tell the people that are suffering just kept silent.

We want -- the whole thing is a package deal. I agree that Yasser Arafat is in the seat of responsibility and that he can do a lot, provided that we give him the tools to do that. Just put yourself in his place. Can he now tell the people in Jenin, in Nablus, to keep silent, while the tanks are still in the streets? While the tanks are around the villages and cities?

CLANCY: Amre Moussa, secretary general of the Arab League, our thanks to you for being with us. We have absolutely run out of time here.

Our thanks to both Amre Moussa and to Shimon Peres for being with us, looking at the way forward in the Middle East this day.

That's Q&A. I'm Jim Clancy. The news continues now on CNN.

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