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CNN Talkback Live

Government Goes For Ab Belt Makers; Eight Floridians to be Injected With Chips Of Personal Information.

Aired May 09, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. It's going to be a busy hour. There are new developments in the disappearance of Rilya Wilson, the little girl the state lost track of in Florida. We'll stay on that case. Also, find out why some people are getting implanted with microchips. Would you get chipped? Give me a call, 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail me at talkback@cnn.com.

Here's a look at some of what we're talking about today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here's the pitch. With a touch of a button, you'll go from flabby abs to rock-hard abs without breaking a sweat. Unfortunately, though, these electronic ab gadgets don't do a thing to turn a bulging beer belly into a sleek, six-pack muscle stomach.

NEVILLE (voice-over): The government goes for the gut of ab belt makers. Are you being duped? And would you get chipped? It's not just for pets anymore. Tomorrow, eight Floridians are going to be injected with small silicone chips chock full of personal information. Does everyone need one? Find out why privacy advocates are saying, "No, don't do it."

Images we can never forget, a tragedy that forever changed the lives of two boys and brought them together. We'll get a; sneak preview of their made-for-TV story.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE: OK, up first, though, an update on a heart-wrenching case. Remember Rilya Wilson? She's a little girl who fell through the cracks of the system. CNN national correspondent Susan Candiotti joins us now with the latest from Miami -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Arthel. Well, we understand CNN has learned that as early as later today or tomorrow, we could expect to learn the results of that preliminary DNA test that is being conducted by the Kansas City, Missouri police as to whether there is a DNA match between a little girl whose body was found in Kansas City. That's Precious Doe that you see on the right side of your screen. That's a computerized enhancement of what she looked like. Her unidentified, decapitated body was discovered in April 2001. That was a few months after Rilya Wilson, a 5-year-old who's missing here in Miami, was last accounted for. She was last seen by a caseworker in January of 2001.

So authorities are looking to compare DNA samples taken from Rilya Wilson's mother with the DNA from the unidentified body of Precious Doe in Kansas City. If there is a match, then sadly, of course, that would answer the question as to whether they know where Rilya Wilson is. If there's no match, then police are...

NEVILLE: The search continues.

CANDIOTTI: Yeah, the search continues.

NEVILLE: But now, Susan, in the meantime, though, does the state know -- the children's welfare department, do they know if, in fact, Rilya is still in the state or -- and if not, where is she and who's looking for her? I mean, I can't understand that they, after all of this attention even, that they can't seem to have found someone who might have some sort of idea where she is.

CANDIOTTI: Well, it's a major concern, but they don't know where she is given the massive publicity that you know very well has been going on for quite some time now. All of the national stories and national attention to the case of this little girl that no one has come forward yet to say, "Yes, I recognize that little girl."

The presumption now because police don't have anything to contradict it is that she is still in the state of Florida. At this time, based on the word of the woman that police believe to be the grandmother -- certainly the caretaker of little Rilya Wilson -- she was handed over by someone that the grandmother felt was a caretaker who worked for the child welfare agency. But...

NEVILLE: And that's the grandmother you were showing a picture of.

CANDIOTTI: Exactly. And she remains convinced that the little girl is simply lost somewhere in the system. Now if the police had information or any suggestion that she was no longer in Florida, then certainly, they have the option of involving the FBI to put her on a national missing person's list. But there's nothing to indicate that right now.

NEVILLE: So she's not on the FBI missing children's list?

CANDIOTTI: No, because at this time, she's presumed to be a missing person's case here in Miami, Florida in this area where, presumably, she was taken away from the family here and given over the child welfare agency.

NEVILLE: Right.

CANDIOTTI: That's all they have to work with right now.

NEVILLE: But at the same time, they're still doing DNA tests to see whether or not that body, what, in Kansas City might be little Rilya. So if that's the case, then there is speculation that she could be out of the state of Florida. So why not put her on the FBI missing children's list?

CANDIOTTI: Because they want to wait for that DNA test to come back. They are treating this, certainly, as a possible homicide. But, look, they'll know within the next 24 hours most likely what the situation is there.

NEVILLE: And I know you'll keep us posted on that one. OK, Susan, stand by.

You know, the question continues to be asked, you know, where could Rilya be and who might have taken her. We want to bring in now some other people in this conversation. From Washington, Marianne Takas is with the National Association of Child Advocates, and Ben Ermini, director of the Missing Children Division for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Welcome to both of you.

MARIANNE TAKAS, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CHILD ADVOCATES: Thank you.

NEVILLE: Mr. Ermini, have you ever heard of such a thing?

BEN ERMINI, NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: No. I've been with the National Center since 1989, and this is the first time I've heard of a case of this type where a child has been missing that long and not being reported.

NEVILLE: And Marianne, I mean, what do you think they should be doing about this?

TAKAS: Well, tragically, it is an unusual case and it is extreme, but it is not unknown within child welfare systems that are under funded and overcrowded that children do get lost. And that's really, I think something -- I think the police are absolutely right in looking carefully, searching. The state is doing everything to search to find this child, and that's absolutely essential to do it, but it's also important to focus on how can we improve the system to see that more children don't get lost, don't get hurt, and certainly, that children don't die.

NEVILLE: Well, on that note, we have a statement from the caseworker in the Rilya case, Deborah Muskelly, and I'd like to pop that up on the screen right now and share it with you. It's actually from her attorney on her behalf. It says, "Ms. Muskelly denies neglecting her responsibilities concerning Rilya Wilson or any child under her supervision. Ms. Muskelly denies falsifying reports about Rilya Wilson or any other child under her supervision. She is deeply concerned about the health, safety and welfare of Rilya Wilson and all the other children under DCF supervision," Department of Children and Family, because the "Miami Herald" reported that, in fact, Ms. Muskelly had falsified documents saying that she was visiting with Rilya when, in fact, she was allegedly substitute teaching in the Miami, Dade County public school system. Susan, talk about for me this commission that Governor Jeb Bush is leading.

CANDIOTTI: Well, there is a blue ribbon panel that has been appointed by Florida governor Jeb Bush, and it held its first meeting here in Miami just yesterday, and another one is scheduled for tomorrow. The panel is supposed to submit a report within the next couple of weeks but have an awfully large job on their shoulders. I mean, after all, they've been asked to look into, not only the Rilya Wilson case, but looking into -- look into the entire agency, the state child welfare agency, as it's being run in Miami-Dade County. But critics have said, look, there's a problem not only in Miami-Dade County but throughout the state of Florida.

And additionally, Arthel, you read that statement on behalf of the lawyer. There's additional information. CNN has obtained a letter sent by Deborah Muskelly's attorney on her behalf. Last Friday, it was sent to Florida governor Jeb Bush, as well as the child welfare agency secretary in which he states that she was no longer the case worker of Rilya Wilson after January 2001. It is the claim of Ms. Muskelly that the child responsibility for her was transferred to two other units after January of 2001, that it wasn't her job anymore, and therefore, she didn't falsify any reports.

Now if that's true, well, try to document that. Certainly, we've already been trying since we got our hands on this letter today to try to get a response from the state about that. Was there someone else besides her? Other units, including an adoptions unit that was supposed to be looking out for her? But it still doesn't answer the question: Who was making these monthly visits? And it doesn't answer the question about this report referred to by the judge in this case that she had in August of 2001 that indicated the child was doing very well in a family like setting. Well, we were told that the caseworker filed that report but we haven't seen it. Can't examine the report.

NEVILLE: Yeah, I've got a lot more questions for you, Susan, as well as Marianne. And I'd like to hear from Mr. Ermini as well. And I know that I've got a caller, a special call on the line, someone who is a former employee of child protective welfare service department. So we definitely want to hear what you have to say so don't go anywhere. Hang on for me.

We're going to stay on this subject. Is Florida's child welfare system broken and can it be fixed? We'll answer that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody. We're talking about the disappearance of Rilya Wilson, a 5-year-old girl who hasn't been seen in 15 months. Cute girl.

I promised Chris in Florida that I would take your call when I come back from break, and you're on the air live, Chris. First of all, tell me where you used to work. CALLER: I used to work in Bartow, Florida, which is a county of about a half-million people. It's closest to Lakeland, Florida. That would have been the 14th district of the Department of Children and Family.

NEVILLE: And I want to ask you, is this a rare instance here? I'm sure your answer is no.

CALLER: I think in terms of it going that long, the answer probably is yes. In terms of case...

NEVILLE: Wait, in terms of what?

CALLER: In terms of probably the length. It took them 15 months to discover. That's extreme. But in terms of their not seeing children, the answer definitely is it's not an uncommon occurrence. Without telling any department secrets or anything, I sat in court one day on another case which an attorney was handling, and another caseworker had falsified reporting, going out to see a child, and in fact, couldn't have seen the child because the person that they wrote in their notes that they saw was dead. It is -- in doing my own job, it was a very common experience that caseworkers did not see the children.

NEVILLE: OK, but Chris, what kind of people are we talking about? These caseworkers are not being painted in a very good light here. I mean, how insensitive can these people be?

CALLER: It's not the caseworker's fault other than the lying. They put somebody -- the problem is is that caseworkers turn over about every six months, and they're barely likely to even see their kids before they are out the door. Middle management has put such an impossible task on these people that they're required to handle a caseload of over a hundred kids, which means a hundred visitations at the homes a month, 400 supervised visitations a month, in addition to going into court and writing up a report. It is physically, mathematically impossible for them to do it.

NEVILLE: So how do we fix it?

CALLER: Part of the problem is that middle management has to resolve that whenever you have a shortfall of employees, that you have to shift employees to back it up. Some of the tasks can be shifted off of these people. You have to be more nice to these people. They are so abusive to these people that -- I mean, they're out the door in a flash. And there really isn't an attitude of they don't care. If you don't like it, you're out the door. The people that leave DCF are the most competent people in the agency. It is the worst people, the people that you would think could never hold a job are the ones that stay there.

NEVILLE: Chris, hang on the line for me, if you would.

Boy, Susan, this is unfortunate information here. I have to say not surprising. Susan, do you know if there's any sort of computer tracking system in place here where they could sort of somehow track these kids and track the logging of the information and piece it all together?

CANDIOTTI: Well, to a degree. However, not the kind of system they'd like to have in place. Certainly, you'll recall in this instance that the state child welfare agency has maintained that it waited for six days before notifying the police after it first discovered that the little Rilya Wilson was missing before it notified the authorities because the agency maintained that it wanted to look for the child within its own system. Certainly, it is not at the stage where they could do it as quickly as possible, at least they say. And that is why they waited for six days to notify the authorities. One would think it wouldn't take that long.

NEVILLE: And Susan, authorities have not interviewed Deborah Muskelly at this point; correct?

CANDIOTTI: That's right. They haven't done so yet, although police do tell me that they certainly plan to interview her. However, the police say that they only received the documents in this case just a few days ago, and they are still going over the case file of Rilya Wilson. So detectives tell me they want to make sure that they have all their ducks lined up in a row before they conduct certain interviews. And Deborah Muskelly is one of them.

NEVILLE: OK, I have Darlene from Michigan, who'd like to say something.

DARLENE: Yes. My thing is, where is the accountability here? I mean, I am a nurse. I have to be accounted for this. And I know that they're overworked. You know, we are short in the nursing field. They short of case managers. But where does that accountability and responsibility land? I mean, it has to fall somewhere. So why are they not investigating her? Why are they not questioning her?

NEVILLE: Well, they're going to. They want to read over the documents at this point. I say interview her before reading the documents; read the documents then interview her again. Thank you for standing up and speaking out.

And I have run out of time. Sorry about that, Robert. Got you on TV now. All right, our cameraman.

Susan Candiotti, thank you so much for your update. We'll follow this story. I know you will. Thank you very much, because I'm very, very interested in this.

Marianne Takas and Ben Ermini, thank you very much for being here on TALKBACK LIVE today.

TAKAS: Thank you.

NEVILLE: OK, up next, would you walk around with all your personal information implanted in your body? Talk to our next guest and find out why he got chipped. Stay with us. Interesting stuff.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NEVILLE: All right, here's something new for you. Computer chips implanted under your skin. It's been done on animals, but until today, not on humans. Technology at its finest or just another case of big brother watching?

Here to debate it, Keith Bolton, who developed the Verichip ID and who had one implanted today. Is that right, Keith?

KEITH BOLTON, DEVELOPER OF VERICHIP ID: Well, we actually have several chips here and...

NEVILLE: No, no. Did you have one implanted today is what I want to know.

BOLTON: We did do some testing today in preparation for tomorrow.

NEVILLE: Did you have a chip implanted today, Keith?

BOLTON: We did do testing today, yes.

NEVILLE: Keith, you know what? Sarah Andrews is also here. She's with the Electronic Privacy Information Center.

All right, Keith, I hope you don't try to wiggle your way out of all the questions I ask you today.

BOLTON: Certainly not.

NEVILLE: OK. How does the Verichip work?

BOLTON: OK, the Verichip is a very small little microchip. It lies dormant inside of the body, and it has a verification number on the chip. And it lies dormant inside the body, and it requires a proprietary scanner to be able to read over the chip. And the scanner actually talks to a database. The database brings back the information onto the scanner just as you see here right now. This happens to be Derek Jacobs' information, who will be actually injected with the chip tomorrow morning.

NEVILLE: And what information is in there, Keith? What information is in there?

BOLTON: OK, well, there is a verification data number in the chip.

NEVILLE: OK.

BOLTON: And then the verification data number talks and communicates to this reader over a radio frequency. And then the reader itself calls out to a database through the Internet and pulls the information back as is displayed on this display.

NEVILLE: And then you claim this is tamper proof, right?

BOLTON: Well, the chip is subcutaneously injected into your body. You cannot see the chip.

NEVILLE: Yeah, that's true, but you just told me, too, that that information is transmitted through the radio frequencies through the Internet. And we all know that hackers and anybody can get into that kind of system.

BOLTON: OK, well, if you follow the process, the data number is inside of the chip. It's transmitted in about 1.5 milliseconds to the reader with an encrypted 128 bit encrypted code. It is then transmitted over the Internet also...

NEVILLE: Right, we already went through this, Keith.

BOLTON: Excuse me.

NEVILLE: We already went through that.

BOLTON: Right.

NEVILLE: Come on, now, we don't have a lot of time, so you need to answer the questions, OK. I'm going to get Sarah in on this.

BOLTON: OK, I'm answering the question.

NEVILLE: Sarah, Sarah, Sarah, Sarah. You know, what do you think about this? Is this a privacy issue?

SARAH: I think it raises a lot of very serious privacy issues. At the moment, we have a number of problems with that, but it's difficult to say when people are taking this up on a voluntary basis, at the moment, but leading forward, I think it's kind of a slippery slope question that it could actually at one stage become mandatory for people to have one of these chips under their skin. Moreover, there's no limit on what kind of information could be in the chip or in the database.

NEVILLE: Exactly. Keith, can you change this information that's in the database at any point or take this out, take this chip out of your body if you want to?

BOLTON: Absolutely. This is an elective process. The people who want this inside of their body like the Jacobs family, they want the information. They want the chip to speak for them. For that matter, Jeffrey Jacobs has many medical problems, and Derek Jacobs wears a medical bracelet. Well, we believe that that infringes on privacy because it sends a message that there's something medically wrong with him. Now it is his chip, it's his information. He has the ability to be able to log on with the encrypted security and confirmation capabilities to change and add as he wishes.

NEVILLE: I see. Let's say real-life situation here. Someone who's wearing this chip gets into a car accident. They're taken to an emergency room. What happens if that particular hospital doesn't have the scanner?

BOLTON: OK, well, what we're doing is rolling out in Florida first, and we are giving the scanners. We talked to 16 hospitals, and 14 hospitals have agreed to take the scanners. So the process would be this. You're unconscious or, for some reason, you can't speak. The first thing that they would do is they would look in your wallet to see if you have a card that says you have a Verichip. If for some reason...

NEVILLE: Well, excuse me, stop. Why don't you just have a medical card that says, "I've got these types of problems, and I'm allergic to this medicine"? I mean, just do that.

BOLTON: OK, well, those could be manipulated, that can be lost. What I'm saying is that initially, while we roll the technology out, OK, this will be provided. But we believe what will happen and will be embraced is it will become a reader standard just like a blood pressure reader or a thermometer reader to where the ambulance attendant and/or the medical attendant will say, "Do you have a chip?" If they do, the chip will be in the exact same place on everyone, and it will scan over the right shoulder type of the body and have that information that could perhaps save their life.

NEVILLE: Hang on for me, Keith. We want to talk a little bit more with you about this. We have to take a break right now.

And when we come back, I want to know if you would get chips. E- mail me or call me on this one, OK? I know you all have a lot to say about it, too.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: OK, everybody, welcome back.

And we're talking about getting chipped, implanting a computer chip in your body that's full of all your personal data.

Keith Bolton is the person who developed the VeriChip. And Sarah Andrews isn't so sure, because she's with the Electronic Privacy Information Center. So, she's not so sure about it.

Hey, Keith, you know what? This chip is $200, right, $10 a month for maintenance charges?

BOLTON: Absolutely. And it's an elective procedure. You choose to get chipped or not.

NEVILLE: And you mentioned that the scanners -- you were going to try to provide the different hospitals with the scanners. Certainly, you are not going to give them for free, are you?

BOLTON: Right now, in the roll-out program in Florida, we are giving the scanners to the hospitals, yes.

NEVILLE: Until -- and then after the roll-out program, how much would those cost?

BOLTON: The scanners will cost approximately $1,500.

NEVILLE: Stand up for me, Julie.

JULIE: I want to know who puts the information on the chips, the patients or the doctors? Because, will the patients even know the right wording to put on it for people who scan it?

BOLTON: Well, the answer to that question is, you have two choices.

Either the doctor, who is part of the chipping center, puts the information on for you. Or, of course, you have the ability to go ahead and do that. We give you the information, the capabilities and training to do that. And it is, quite simply, just fill in the blanks.

NEVILLE: Kelly from North Carolina.

KELLY: When you get this chip implanted, do you get like a mark or scar of any kind on your body?

BOLTON: Absolutely, not, Kelly.

When it is injected subcutaneously, it takes approximately 30 seconds, absolutely no pain whatsoever. And there is a little bruise for approximately five to 10 days, depending on your skin type. And then you can't see it. You can't feel it. And it doesn't move around, no infection, no rejection.

NEVILLE: So you inject it into the skin, though, just underneath the skin?

BOLTON: Yes. You inject it with a needle. We manufacture both the needle. We also manufacture the chip itself. And we manufacture the reader that reads that.

NEVILLE: Is it a special needle?

BOLTON: It is a special needle.

NEVILLE: What is so special about it? Tell me.

BOLTON: What is so special about it is that it is designed to push the small little rice-like chip inside of your body, leave it inside of the body as you actually pull the needle back out.

NEVILLE: Oh, I see. But if it is subcutaneous, though, you can still see it. Is like a little piece of rice underneath your skin. That's kind of creepy.

BOLTON: No. You really can't see it, OK?

What you can do, if you push real hard down on your skin, you might be able to feel the outskirts of it. But, no, you can't feel it and you can't see it.

NEVILLE: Now, with that, let's say -- because I know some family is going to get it tomorrow, right? BOLTON: That's right.

NEVILLE: And there's a son involved in this.

Let's say somebody decides to let their -- or the 16-year-old son decides that he wants this chip. He is playing football, getting banged up, knocked around. So, what happens if this chip suffers that kind of traumatic impact and then the computer goes down?

BOLTON: Well, we have been manufacturing microchips for animals, our friendly little -- our furry little friends, cats and dogs, for over 15 years, and have had a great deal of experience with a sister- like chip for that particular marketplace.

But we have a particular solution that goes around the chip. And it is hermetically sealed so that no body fluids can get in. And we have not had any...

NEVILLE: Or no radio frequencies can get out?

BOLTON: Excuse me?

NEVILLE: Or no radio frequencies can seep into your skin or something.

BOLTON: Well, the radio frequency, once again, is this very low- level frequency, kilohertz frequency. And it only talks to the propriety scanner.

NEVILLE: Because it goes through your skin, anyway.

Russ from Georgia, go ahead.

RUSS: Yes.

You made an analogy before about mentioning, being -- reading as simple as high blood pressure. And you are talking about propriety confidential information going out there. It's not just as simple as just a blood pressure reading or something like that. You are talking about a lot more information being exchanged over the airwaves. The longer it travels, the easier it is to snag out of the air.

ANDREWS: Can I jump in here?

NEVILLE: Go right ahead.

ANDREWS: I think that the last question raises a particular point, that this can be any kind of information. At the moment, it might just be limited to your medical records. But there is no limit on what it can include in the future.

And another point is that these chips can be read -- even if they're implanted voluntarily at the moment, they can be read without your knowledge.

NEVILLE: Exactly. ANDREWS: For instance, there is nobody preventing -- you get a scanner. And you can just read this off people passing you by. You have to be pretty close. But I think it can be even up to 2 feet away, you can read these chips.

BOLTON: Well, I can answer that question.

NEVILLE: Quickly, because I have got Richard here

(CROSSTALK)

BOLTON: Oh, OK. Yes.

The scanner is distributed through medical clinics. And we are also working very close with state, federal...

NEVILLE: How far away does the scanner need to be for you to scan?

BOLTON: Well, we have three types of scanners. One is 2 inches away one. And another one is as much as 3 feet away.

NEVILLE: OK.

Richard?

RICHARD: Yes, this is basically a passive transponder, is it not?

BOLTON: Correct.

RICHARD: What is to stop someone from reverse engineering your scanner and putting these transponders throughout the country so they can track movements of people or -- why wouldn't it be better just to go with some kind of tattoo system, where you could use a U.V.- reactive ink or something to tattoo a number on you, which no electronic device could then get? And if you are in a hospital unconscious, they can just shine a black light on you and get your number.

ANDREWS: I think that is a really good question.

I mean, the fact is, although these scanners are just being given out to hospitals at the moment, they will pretty easily be replicated. And you don't know who is going to get ahold of them. And you enter into a bar or a store and all of the sudden you are being read.

NEVILLE: You might just be going through the EZ Pass on the freeway.

ANDREWS: Yes, exactly.

BOLTON: I think you are making the assumption that they can be replicated. This a patented technology.

NEVILLE: I am out of time. Keith Bolton, thank you very much.

Sarah Andrews, thank you very much.

ANDREWS: You're most welcome.

NEVILLE: And up next: promises of washboard abs in just minutes a day. Sound too good to be true? Well, stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: All right, so, you've seen the ads on TV, right, for great abs? Put on a special little belt like this one that I had in my hand and push a button. And they go by various names: the Ab Energizer, AbTronic FastAbs. There it is.

Millions of people have bought them. Now government officials suggest you save your money.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIMOTHY MURIS, FTC CHAIRMAN: Electronic ab belts sold on TV, on the Internet, and in stores won't give you rock-hard six-pack washboard abs. They won't cause weight loss, fat loss, inch loss, or get rid of cellulite. And they don't substitute for sit-ups, crunches or other forms of exercise.

JEFF KNOWLES, ATTORNEY, FASTABS: The company's position is that the use of the abdominal belt alone will not cause weight loss or inches, but when used in conjunction with a diet or exercise program may cause weight loss or loss of inches.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: Yes, OK. As my little cousin would say, "Duh."

Anyway, this week, the government filed suit against the makers of these about belts -- look at it. I've got this little thing here. It is not doing, anything, I am telling you -- that the companies claim were false and the sales fraudulent.

Joining us now: professional trainer Jerry Anderson, who has been involved in the health and fitness profession, what, for 20 years now?

JERRY ANDERSON, PERSONAL FITNESS TRAINER: Twenty-two years I've been in the business of exercise and fat control.

NEVILLE: So, are you a personal trainer, Jerry?

ANDERSON: Yes, I'm a personal trainer. I'm an author. And I'm Mr. Natural Universe.

NEVILLE: Mr. Natural Universe. Why you going to get on TALKBACK LIVE bragging about yourself?

ANDERSON: Whoa. (LAUGHTER)

NEVILLE: What do you think about these ab belts?

ANDERSON: You know, the ab belt is kind of a -- it's a form -- it's almost ridiculous. The only real benefit I can see out of a piece of equipment like that is, somebody could purchase it and create the habit of exercise. But what you are going to have to do is get the real exercise formula into place.

There's four things you have to do to keep a healthy, fit body for a lifetime. No. 1, you have to do some strength training. No. 2, you have to do aerobics. And No 3: low-fat nutrition. And No. 4, which we all don't even think about, is mental fitness. We have got to realize we are a mind with the body. We need mental before physical fitness. And that is one of the reasons why we are so susceptible to following a program like this, because we are thinking there is a quick way. But there is no shortcut to anywhere worth going.

NEVILLE: No pain, no gain, right?

ANDERSON: Right. You remain the same.

NEVILLE: Oh, I didn't know that part of it. Thank you.

OK, Thomas?

THOMAS: Yes. I saw one thing on "20/20." They were talking about they use some of these actors or some of these models to advertise these AbTronic. And they use body a body double for these AbTronic so they can bump up the sales.

NEVILLE: Thank you.

Can you believe that they have sold like millions of these things?

ANDERSON: Right.

It is amazing how many people are just falling into this, because, truly, the American people really want to get in shape. And there has been some recent press release released by the surgeon general that 70 percent of the people in the country are overweight; 85 percent don't exercise. And they are trying to find a way to get to that point. This piece of equipment is supposed to get them there, but it's not going to happen.

You have to include those four keys of fat loss on a regular basis. You need to strength train two or three times a week, do aerobics at least three times a week, and eat low-fat foods. And that is the simple way to get to your goal.

NEVILLE: If you have more muscles, than your metabolism rate goes up higher. ANDERSON: Most definitely. When you strength train, it increases your lean muscle mass. And what most people don't realize, when you try to lose weight without strength training, 50 percent of the weight loss will come from the source of muscle. The goal is to increase the muscle.

NEVILLE: That's right. The body will eat away the muscle first, won't it?

ANDERSON: Most definitely.

And the key is, when you increase your lean muscle mass, you increase your fat-burning capacity. Then you will burn more calories every hour of the day.

NEVILLE: Just while you're sitting at your office at the computer.

ANDERSON: Right. Anything worth having is worth working for. If you don't want to work for it, you are going to not have it. And the reason 70 percent of the people in the country are overweight...

NEVILLE: They don't want to work for it.

ANDERSON: Right.

You know, what's really amazing is, over 300,000 people died last year from overweight and obesity. It is a major problem. And that is why people are so easy to be convinced by these fad programs. We have to take a good look at it, and look at it right, and avoid the simple, and get involved in a regular workout program. Building it into your daily schedule.

NEVILLE: You are right, Jerry. Got to go.

Hey, were you a little bit impressed on my knowledge on your profession?

ANDERSON: You're sharp, girl. You're sharp.

NEVILLE: My trainer, Kirsten (ph), she taught me all that.

ANDERSON: All right.

NEVILLE: All right, well, thank you, Jerry, for being with us today here on TALKBACK LIVE.

ANDERSON: My pleasure.

NEVILLE: Oh, sure.

Next, we're going to find out how you tell a little boy he will never see his mother again. That's the subject of a documentary about September 11. We'll hear about "Telling Nicholas" when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NEVILLE: It has been almost eight months since terrorists struck at the heart of America. Some of us have been able to get on with our lives, but others have to live every day with what happened September 11.

Sunday, HBO plans to air a documentary that focuses on a young boy named Nicholas. His mother was killed in the World Trade Center attacks, but his family could not bear to tell him, at least not right away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "TELLING NICHOLAS")

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened in Manhattan?

NICHOLAS: My mom got lost that day, because the Twin Towers, two buildings, so something bad happened. And next, she got missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

NICHOLAS: It was like my mom got missing in one small place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Small?

NICHOLAS: It was small. But, under the city, it is like a huge place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

NICHOLAS: So she took a cab to Jersey. That would be the hard part. But I'm thinking that she is in Jersey now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, you think she is in Jersey?

NICHOLAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that people are looking for her?

NICHOLAS: Right. But she is in Manhattan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But she is really in Manhattan?

NICHOLAS: Yes.

So, the people are looking for her. And then next, they have to call up me or my dad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: Also featured in this documentary, Thanbir Ahmed. He is joining us from New York.

Thanbir, hold on for a second for us. I want to first show a clip involving you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "TELLING NICHOLAS") NARRATOR: After scouting out the dollar store, Nicholas decided that his favorite bakery was the perfect location for a scene in his new friend's school project, some sort of contest: $20 for anybody who could correctly identify Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, Afghanistan and Thanbir's native country, Bangladesh.

THANBIR AHMED, "TELLING NICHOLAS": And you got bin Laden. Thank you, Nic. You got bin Laden and al Qaeda correct.

Hi. My name is Thanbir. I am doing a school project. It's a contest which you can win $20 dollars in. Nic, can you count down?

NICHOLAS: Three, two, one.

AHMED: The first thing I would like you to do is locate Afghanistan on the map.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beats the hell out of me. I'd never heard of it until recently. You sure it's on this map?

AHMED: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do I have to circle it?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE: Thanbir, I want to let everybody to know that you also suffered tragedy. Your father was killed in those attacks on the World Trade Center. He was a waiter at the Windows on the World restaurant up there.

AHMED: Right.

NEVILLE: Thanbir, tell me, what did you learn about people when you did your project?

AHMED: When I did my project with James Ronald Whitney -- he helped me out. It was a project with Student Voice in New York City.

We learned that -- well, the initial product was to find issues facing the city. And what I learned was that one of the issues was people -- racism towards Arabs and people of Middle Eastern descent. I went to (UNINTELLIGIBLE), did a project with Nicholas, where I went and asked people if they knew where Afghanistan was and if they knew where Bangladesh was located, and if they knew the leader of the terrorist organization.

Most did not know, obviously. They seemed surprised when I asked them also. I think it was pretty -- can you hear me?

NEVILLE: I can hear you. I want to ask you another question, though.

What did you hope people would learn about you when you were doing this little scientific experiment? AHMED: What I was hoping that people would learn about me would be that, even though I am from Bangladesh, a Muslim country, that I am as common as most Americans. I live in American culture. I am totally Americanized.

Yet people -- that my family and I have suffered the same consequences as almost every other American who did lose a family member in the attack and that we are coping with it the same way, but we had also the problem of coping -- dealing with people in the streets that felt that we were the ones that caused the problems and the terrorist attack.

NEVILLE: Because some kids were calling you a terrorist, right?

AHMED: Yes, I did deal with that, and throughout my life, because of my Bengali descent.

NEVILLE: How are you and your family doing?

AHMED: For the past six to eight months, I think we have been going uphill ever since the attack.

The first day was pretty traumatic for me, as well as my family. But ever since the six-month anniversary, everything has been better going on with day-to-day activities, as well as dealing with your family problems, normal family problems since the attack and since the loss of my father. Another thing that has helped me was making the film with James Ronald Whitney, "Telling Nicholas," that is going to show Sunday night, on Mother's Day.

Being with Nicholas' family and meeting them, I learned about how the people felt about Muslims. And I learned that, if socializing with them helps in any way, the more I help other people, then the more Americans will accept Muslims in their society.

NEVILLE: Right. Thanbir, thank you very much for sharing your story with us here today.

AHMED: Thank you.

NEVILLE: You are a handsome young fellow.

AHMED: Thank you.

NEVILLE: Sure. The best of luck to you. And God bless you and your family.

OK, we are out of time. I'll see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.

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