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CNN Crossfire

Interview with Jerry Springer; Debate on Affirmative Action for Law School; Republican Fund-Raising Flap

Aired May 15, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the Crossfire tonight -- picture a September 11 phone call as a way to get campaign contributions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No objections were raised.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Maybe not at the White House. But that isn't the whole picture. In the Crossfire, a negative image.

Qualified for law school, partly by the color of their skin. Jesse Jackson delivers his verdict on the race for admission.

And nail down the chairs. We're tossing around opinions with the man who helped put trash in trash TV, Jerry Springer is in the Crossfire.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. In the land of equal opportunity the U.S. court of appeals says some opportunities can be less equal than others. Tonight Jesse Jackson joins us to put the University of Michigan Law School's race for admission in the crossfire. Later we'll be talking about trash with none other than the king of trash TV himself, Jerry Springer.

But first a picture worth at least a thousand words and likely thousands of dollars for the Republican Party. It shows President Bush aboard Air Force one calmly doing his job in the midst of a national crisis, talking to Dick Cheney September 11. It's part of a three photograph set being offered for a donation of at least 150 bucks to Republican campaign committees. The same Democrats who you may remember auctioned off invitations to the without White House coffees and nights in the Lincoln bedroom are apoplectic. Here to put the September 11 photo in the Crossfire are Ann Lewis, who is the national chairwoman of the DNC's Women Vote Center, and Republican strategist Alex Castellanos.

Good to see you. PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Alex, let's begin by putting it into perspective. This may surprise you. Considering the fact that Bush has already used September 11 to justify robbing the Social Security trust money and giving it to billionaires, trampling on our civil liberties, accusing his critics of treason and handing our environmental policy over to oil companies, this is small potatoes, isn't it? This is nothing compared to what he has already done in the name of September 11, isn't it?

ALEX CASTELLANOS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I really am kind of surprised by all this. I wonder if the news media needs a pair of glasses for this one because I heard all this hype about the Republicans are somehow using the tragic events of September 11 for political purposes, and I thought, oh, my God, what have we done? Is it a picture of the building or the people, and I turned around and it is a picture of the president of the United States actually being the president of the United States. He's on the phone, doing the same job September 11 that he did on September 12 and 13 and every day since, that he did in that state of the union address.

BEGALA: Talk on the phone to Dick Cheney?

CASTELLANOS: No, protecting you, protecting me, protecting all of us from terrorism, leading the world in the war on terrorism, doing a great job at it, and that is what he has been doing every day. Now, according to your rationale of course, we can't show any picture of the president in the past year protecting us because he has done a good job.

I know you are still angry that he won the election and he's doing a good job and the American people respect him for it, but...

BEGALA: You are wrong on all three counts but I don't want to get into that. Michael Beschloss this morning, he is the presidential historian, I don't have any idea, I don't think he is a partisan in any sense. I heard him on the Imus radio program. He said this is one of the dumbest things done recently in American politics. It's a huge mistake. Bush laid an egg, didn't he?

CASTELLANOS: I think all of us, I think said a little prayer for the victims of September 11. I think it touches all of us and we still carry a little bit of that in our hearts. I think no one more so perhaps bears a greater burden than the president, who is responsible for protecting all of us and making sure it doesn't happen again.

I think that day and every day since, but especially that day, I think a lot of people appreciated the strength of this president and I think some people may even want a picture people want a picture of that in their homes. I might put my on my refrigerator next to my little American flag. But I don't think there's anything wrong with that, having a president you can respect again. You might want a picture of it in your home. We haven't had that for the past eight years.

CARLSON: Now Ann Lewis, I have to say, you get boldness points for coming on as a veteran of the Clinton Administration to attack this administration on fund raising. I could go after's the Lincoln Bedroom, or John Wong, or the Buddhist temple. But that would be too east. So I will give you a pass. Instead, I want you to take a look at this picture. It is President Clinton meeting the assassinated former president John F. Kennedy. In April 1998, the DNC sold this photograph to campaign donors who gave $400 or more to the party. In other words, the Democratic Party profited off the memory of an assassinated president. That's far more appalling than a picture of a president doing his job, is it not?

ANN LEWIS, NATL. CHAIRWOMAN, DNC NATIONAL CONVENTION: I think there is a double standard here. But let's be clear what September 11 was. It wasn't just any day in the last year. This was a day in which thousands of Americans were murdered. Our country was under attack and we all came together. We came together to fight back. Right now we have American servicemen and women who are over there in Afghanistan risking their lives to keep us safe.

Alex is right. It's the job of the president to unite us. Shame on the White House, shame on the Republican party, that tries to use that example, that day, that image for political fundraising.

CASTELLANOS: Nobody is doing that, Ann.

(CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: If (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tell the difference between that day and this picture, then maybe we have a lot more explaining to do.

CARLSON: Let me give you a better example. I want to quote from you...

LEWIS: Try to find one.

CARLSON: These are remarks from President Clinton from a fund- raiser, one of many, in 1994. This is what he said to the assembled crowd. "This afternoon the U.S. received official confirmation that North Korea is prepared to freeze its nuclear program. It came about because of the steadfastness and resolve our administration and working with our allies." He's bragging about his foreign policy successes before a group of donors who wanted to raise money. Do I have a problem with this? Actually, I don't. You know why, because he did it, he gets to brag about it. That is what it is when you are president, you do a good job, you can tell people about it, you can even raise money on the basis of it.

LEWIS: Let me see if I have this right. Because a president speaks to the American people or speaks to a group and says I have some very important news, we're moving forward and let me point out this was an administration that did believe that America's national security was improved when we got other countries to reduce their nuclear program.

That may be hard for you to understand because the policies have changed a couple of times. CARLSON: I am totally missing your point I am making, and I hope you will agree with, is the president does something, he can brag about it.

LEWIS: The point I'm making is for a president to speak out and talk about what we are doing. By the way you did not hear us complain about Bush last night when he talked about doing the job of the president. He even said last night at this multi, multimillion-dollar fund-raiser that this is not a partisan job. That is right and that is exactly why it is so wrong to take that picture, taken on Air Force One, taken on this historic day, turn it around and make it into a fund-raiser.

CASTELLANOS: I can't believe the Democrats are so desperate to hype up a non-story. Surely you can come up with a better non-story than this.

(CROSSTALK)

CASTELLANOS: Speaking to the joint session of Congress about how important that was. I guess we can't show that one...

BEGALA: Actually there is an enormous difference and here is free political advice -- you are one of the best in the business, so you don't need it, but President Bush watches every night here at CROSSFIRE, he should not have opened the door. The truth is when he spoke to the Congress on September 20 he was terrific. That was nine days after the tragedy.

He found his footing, he found his voice and he delivered a wonderful speech and we all cheered. But the honest truth is on September 11th he was frighteningly shaky. I am going to show you the videotape of President Bush that day. No Republican is going to contribute money to get this videotape. Take a look at what he actually did on September 11.

That doesn't look like gritty resolve.

That is a president frightened out of his mind. That's how he actually performed on September 11. You don't want to remind the country of that, do you?

CASTELLANOS: Poor Paul. Personal attacks. Is this the best you can do? This is your campaign against George Bush?

BEGALA: Alex, you are a best ad guy I know. Are you going to put that in an ad for Bush?

CASTELLANOS: I know it breaks your heart but you are so amazingly wrong when you said this president couldn't do the job and it turned out he has done a great job.

BEGALA: He went from there to hide inside of a mountain, Alex. Are you going to use that tape in an ad? Are you going to use that tape in an ad? CARLSON: I will. Ann Lewis, in the moments we have left, I just want to get a pledge from you. There's talk, and I believe it, the Democrats are rounding up widows and orphans of September 11 and prodding and goading them to attack the president over the use of this picture. I want you to pledge right here on CROSSFIRE that Democrats, the many tentacles of the party won't do that. Because of anything, that is the most vulgar and exploitive thing you could possibly do to use widows and orphans to make a political point. You won't do that, will you?

LEWIS: Let me see if I have this right, the party that is selling this picture for $150 is now going to turn around and be shocked if people who lost family members stand up and say, you shouldn't have done it? I'm just trying remind you that the First Amendment does work for people you like, for people you disagree with. We could have this debate. Unlike Alex who seems to think it's only the press that is hyping this, the reason this story is here, here is because people who are talking about this, including, you have Republican Donors who went to the gala, and said to the press that this is just plain wrong.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: That has to be the last word. I promise both of you that you will be on a whole lot more. Ann Lewis from the Democratic Party and Alex Castellanos, from the Republican Party. Two of the best in the business.

Up next, we are going to make sure the faces of a law school classroom, should they reflect the faces of America? Affirmative action affirmed by a powerful appeals court yesterday debated in the crossfire tonight. Jessie Jackson joins us next.

And later -- a man whose show appeals to the seamy, sleazy voyeur in all of us, and no, that is not Tucker Carlson, a guy that gets a lot bigger rating than Tucker and I do though, Jerry Springer will be talking' trash in the Crossfire.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to Crossfire. There is a law school here at the George Washington University, and according to its Web site its admissions policy takes into account an applicants race as one of many factors relevant admissions along with test scores, grades, your major, undergraduate institution, personal achievement, letters of recommendation, geographic diversity. That policy and those of law schools across the nation, could be affected by a case that is almost certainly heading to the United States Supreme Court.

In a five to four ruling yesterday, the U.S. Court of appeals for the sixth circuit said it is permissible for the University School of Law to consider race as a factor in admitting students. In other words, three words to be exact, affirmative action lives.

In overturning a lower court ruling against the policy, the appeals court said Michigan's law school has a compelling interesting in achieving a diverse student body. To put this race for admissions policy in the crossfire, we are joined by Representative Bob Shaffer, a Republican from Colorado. And joining us from New York is the Reverend Jesse Jackson, a recipient of the presidential medal of freedom, or nation's highest civilian honor.

CARLSON: Mr. Jackson, thanks for joining us. This is Tucker Carlson here in Washington. You often make the point, eloquently, that affirmative action helps people and you are right, it does. And it also hurts others. And I want you, just for a moment, to face squarely one of the victims of it, one of the people who has been hurt by it, her name if Barbara Grutter and she applied to the University of Michigan of Law School and she didn't get in.

Why? One reason: her race. What would you say to her? What would you say, that you didn't get in because of the color of her skin? How would you comfort her?

REVEREND JESSIE JACKSON: I'd say that race is a factor among factors. That may not have been the only reason. For example, legacy matter. In point, George W. Bush got into Yale because his father and grandfather had been there. Legacy matters. Title line, gender matters. Geography matters, grades matter, ability to pay, speciality matters, and so all of these factors matter. Race happens to be a factor to move us from a history of race exclusion as in race slavery, race segregation, race discrimination to race inclusion.

It is not only the law, but it is also according to Dr. Bulge (ph) at Michigan at the time, it's value added for the class.

CARLSON: But Mr. Jackson, you are aware that there are people who don't get in, who are penalized because of the color of their skin. That strikes many Americans as terribly unfair. Again I ask you, what would you say to people who are penalized for the color of their skin, who are hurt by affirmative action?

JACKSON: I think that is not really the case. First of all affirmative action is the majority, not a minority. Because of title nine, gender matters, as well as race. When you consider white women and women of other hues, plus people of color, this really is the majority, not a minority. So, why do you now have women flying airplanes in the pool to become (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ?

Why do you now have women in law schools, and all these dimensions of light because gender matters and race matters, indeed legacy matters, ability to pay matters, and so if the court ruled against this, if it does rule against this, it takes us back to 1954. They try to undercut the end of apartheid and racial exclusion in our society.

BEGALA: Congressman Shaffer, let me bring you into this. I am a graduate of the University of Texas School of Law. And Integrated law school because in a landmark decision in 1948 an African-American man went all the way to the Supreme Court and won a lawsuit to gain admissions. Because of Himan Sweat's courage, I got a much better education. I'm a white male, as you can obviously tell. I'm sure it's been good for African Americans, I don't really know. I know it has been good for me because I went to a law school that looked like America. So now, when I deal with my fellow Americans I actually know more about their lives and have been enriched by their perspective. That's the argument Michigan won on in the courts. What's wrong with it?

REP. BOB SCHAFFER (R), COLORADO: Racial diversity is a worthwhile goal and something that ought to be pursued and achieved. There is no question about that. The question though is whether somebody should be denied entrance into a university based solely and exclusively on their skin color. This is a battle Americans have fought for years and years and have achieved remarkable strides.

BEGALA: So if it one of many, in fact at Michigan Law School for example takes into account if you won an Olympic gold medal you get more points. If you are over 50 years old, you get more points, you get more points. If you are a Ph.D. in physics you get more points. If you are a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you get more points.

SCHAFFER: That is great. That's great. That's not what this case is about.

BEGALA: That's Michigan's admissions policy.

SCHAFFER: We're not debating their administration's policy as much as the case that ruled that legal discrimination is now somehow protected by the Constitution. Discrimination by a state institution based on one singular factor, and that is skin color. This woman, Barbara Gruder, I think the question is well stated. She is the victim in this case. And regardless of what we think about the worthwhile noble goals for trying to increase racial diversity in universities, I'm for that. The fact is this woman is not in law school today because she's the wrong color.

JACKSON: You are misstating the case. Just last week it came out. African Americans pay spend more for insurance based upon skin tax. More for automobiles based upon skin tax. More for mortgage lending based upon skin tax. A history of race exclusion.

Race inclusion as a factor is a step toward making us a more complete union. Don't forget, race, but not race only -- race, gender, geography. They may want some rural person from Montana in that class. They may want some person from India in that class.

SCHAFFER: This case is not about gender. It's not about anything else. It is about one topic, and that is race. Now if race discrimination...

JACKSON: That is not true.

SCHAFFER: It is true. If you read the transcript I have from the hearing, it is exclusively about race. I have it here. I've read it all morning.

JACKSON: It is not true. SCHAFFER: If race discrimination is wrong with respect to insurance or anything else, it's wrong here also, and, you know, you ought to be consistent with respect to the concern of the application of the law and...

JACKSON: I talk with Dr. Bolinger today, the dean at that time at the University of Michigan law school who filed the case who is now the Columbia University president. He made it very clear that race is a factor among factors. Race, yes, as a factor. Grades a factor, ability to pay a factor. Does it offend you that when George W. Bush gets into Yale, the legacy matters? Does that offend you? Does that offend you?

CARLSON: We have to take a quick commercial break. We'll be back and allow you to restate your point one more time.

If it's good enough for law school is it good enough for all schools? Our affirmative action debate will be right back.

And to show you where our admission standards rank, we're letting Jerry Springer join us in the next half hour. But first, the source of our quote of the day is a woman who had no intention of being in the news this year but a tragedy changed that. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. A U.S. appeals court says the university of Michigan's law school can consider race as one of many factors in admissions. The court has yet to rule on a separate charge of reverse discrimination in a lawsuit involving undergraduates at Michigan.

In the Crossfire tonight Colorado Republican Congressman Bob Schaffer and from New York, the Reverend Jesse Jackson. Congressman Schaffer, let me begin with a piece of videotape this segment that you will have to listen to because we won't be able to put it on the screen. But our audience at home will see it. It is of the highest ranking African-American in the United States government. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Some in our party miss no opportunity to roundly and loudly condemn affirmative action that helped a few thousand black kids get an education, but you hardly hear a whimper when it's affirmative action for lobbyists who load our federal tax code with preferences for special interest. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. You can't make that case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Try and explain to me why Colin Powell is wrong. I think he's manifestly right.

SCHAFFER: To confuse Colin Powell's statements with what happened in Michigan... BEGALA: That was an impressive argument for affirmative action in education, congressman.

SCHAFFER: President Kennedy also talked about affirmative action in 1961. In fact he really coined the term "Affirmative Action." And what he said was that government policies should affirmatively promote racial equality and racial achievement and opportunity across the board. He did not call for or set aside some quotas that deny people...

BEGALA: But you still won't argue with Colin Powell?

SCHAFFER: I will argue with Colin Powell when he suggests that solely on the basis of skin color should anybody be denied to a university or a job or anything else. In those cases, if that's affirmative action, I don't believe it is. I think it goes far above and beyond affirmative action. It's wrong and always wrong.

CARLSON: You said a minute ago that if affirmative action falls and we go back to segregated lunch counters, but in fact four years ago the state of California, Prop 209, eliminated stated sponsored racism in admissions policies and what happened? It turns out the University of California has more minority students now than it did then. How does that work?

JACKSON: The law school at the University of California at Berkley went from 40 down to zero, up to 2 and up to 5. It was a hurtful case. Mr. Kennedy made that statement in 1961, we were living in the legal apartheid. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Clemson University where I grew up, or Clemson University or South Carolina, because they were coed schools, gender mattered, ability to pay mattered.

If you were a band member it mattered, or a football player it mattered. It's when the inclusion of race matters we get this strong race reaction. We can never heal the breach until we in fact take into account some positive plan to include the Colin Powells of the world. Had there not been a pool in which Colin Powell was selected to show his merits we would not know Colin Powell. That would not be good for America.

CARLSON: Jesse Jackson in New York, thanks for joining us, and Congressman Schaffer, here in Washington, we appreciate. Thank you both.

Something in Afghanistan is making British soldiers sick. Details next in the CROSSFIRE news alert.

Critics have called his show a sinkhole of life's losers. That's one of the kinder assessments. Is there some hidden meaning in the fact he's going to be our guest?

And a lesson in journalism courtesy of our quote of the day. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We are coming to you live from the George Washington University in downtown Washington, D.C. Now before we introduce our next guest, we need to caution our audience, no brawling, no face slapping, no hair pulling, no shocking admissions you're a transvestite vegetarian, and no shotgun weddings with your mother-in-law are going to be tolerated in this segment, at least not on CROSSFIRE.

But if that's what your into, our next guest might be interested in you. He is the king of trash TV. Jerry Springer joins us from Chicago. Let's give him a warm welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Jerry Springer, thanks for joining us.

JERRY SPRINGER: Thank you.

CARLSON: They call you the king of trash TV. I'm not sure how many members of our audience watch your program. In case you don't, let's run through what you're doing this week. Monday you did "I'm pimping my daughter." Tuesday you did "Jerry need to tell her fiance she's bisexual." He says, "No problem, I'll marry both of you." Today you did Siamese twins, one of whom's a singer. And tomorrow you do "Transsexuals attack."

Now this is obviously poisoning America.

SPRINGER: Which one didn't you like?

CARLSON: I actually -- I don't know if I'd watch any of them. But I'm pretty sure that they're bad for the country. So my question is, how much do you make off this? What's your salary from the show? I'm just wondering what the benefit is.

SPRINGER: Oh, I do handsomely, thank you.

CARLSON: But specifically?

SPRINGER: The issue -- well, Why would I tell you? You want a loan?

CARLSON: Well, you're Jerry Springer. Come on.

SPRINGER: You want some money, huh? Well, talk to me after the show. I'll help you out. No problem.

No, the -- our show, let's face it, it's the stupidest show on television. I admit that. It is, but it's about people that are outrageous, people that are over the top, people that are dysfunctional, or people that are really out of the ordinary. You tell me one of those titles where that doesn't fit that category. My job is to show things that are outrageous. I would tell you that every one of those shows demonstrates people that are either outrageous or in very unfortunate circumstances. I think I've done my job. BEGALA: In fact, Jerry, most of those unfortunate circumstances revolve around sex. I mean, Tucker just read all the titles for this week. And we could go on and on. I'm just curious. You're broadcasting in the middle of the day to middle America.

SPRINGER: Does that make you nervous?

BEGALA: Is America that sex-obsessed? Are we a nation of Ken Starrs?

SPRINGER: Duh. Yes, I think it is. But you know what, sure it is. People are very interested in those issues, apparently, otherwise the show wouldn't be on the air. You know, when I was doing the news, my job was to report on what you said before, on things like war, on murders, on violations of the law, on corruption. Now that was my job then. Now my job is to report on dysfunctional behavior. I'll tell you again. Everything we put on our show is basically dysfunctional or out of the ordinary. I don't know what the argument is. Of course it is. That's the point of the show.

CARLSON: Well, then you've an interesting vantage point here then. You've been in straight news and then you've been in the sideshow business.

SPRINGER: Right.

CARLSON: Is it true -- is it axiomatic that the more vulgar, the more transvestites, the better the ratings? Is that the way it works?

SPRINGER: No, because otherwise Oprah wouldn't have these great ratings. She, you know, Oprah is the best there is, hands down. And you're telling me she has these subjects on her show? I don't think so at all. No, there's argument to that. Hardly any show is as silly and stupid as mine is. And yet, they're all on the air. So no, I don't think you can make that argument at all.

BEGALA: And we're doing the best to keep up with you, Jerry. But let me ask you about -- we're having an argument, I don't know if you heard in the last segment, about CBS' decision to air...

SPRINGER: Right.

BEGALA: ...part of that Daniel Pearl tape. They did stop the tape before Pearl was murdered, but they did show him being badgered. I wondered where is the line for you? Would you have gone all the way to show the murder itself? Or what you -- where would you draw the line in something like that?

SPRINGER: No. Well one, I think what it really shows, you know, not to pick a fight, but it's to show the hypocrisy of straight news. I mean, they come at you and they lower their voices, and they put on their ties so that you think they're serious. And they talk about we're telling you what you need to know. Well, the truth of the matter is they showed that, because it was great ratings, and it got everyone else talking about it. That's why they did it. They could have told the story without showing that tape, without hurting the family. I would argue that news exploits people and we don't. Now let me just tell you why. On our show, no matter how ridiculous it is, it's all voluntary. Whoever comes on the show desperately wants to be on. They talk about what they want to talk about. And they don't talk about or deal with issues they don't want to.

But on the news, no one went to this family and said, is it okay -- you know good -- no one went to that family and said, to the Pearl family and said, is it okay if we show these pictures? You know, will this hurt you? Will this make you feel bad? Hell, no. CBS said, "Oh, this is great. People will love it. This is wonderful." You could have told the story without showing those pictures.

CARLSON: Well, I mean, with all due respect.

SPRINGER: The news is hypocritical.

CARLSON: That's sort of a cop-out on your part, though. I mean, your argument appears to be...

SPRINGER: I didn't put the tape on.

CARLSON: No, no, but your argument appears to be, look, my audience, you know, they're compulsive exhibitionists, so I give them a forum. But it's your TV show. You're allowing, aiding and abetting the abasement of these people. And I'm wondering...

SPRINGER: Oh, excuse me...

CARLSON: ...where it ends. If someone called you and said, the Jerry Springer...

SPRINGER: Right.

CARLSON: Called you said, you know, "I want to kill myself on your show. Would you let them?"

SPRINGER: Well, no, of course not. But that's a crime.

CARLSON: Why?

SPRINGER: Well no wait, well wait a second. Now that's an absurd argument. No one is suggesting ever that someone would say you would be aiding and abetting a murder if you did that. That's not the issue.

CARLSON: How about someone...

SPRINGER: No, the issue is...

BEGALA: Didn't "60 MINUTES," didn't CBS -- somebody broadcast Dr. Kervorkian suicide? Didn't somebody? I hate to be impugning CBS if they didn't do it. but didn't some network broadcast one of those Kevorkian suicides? SPRINGER: I'm not suggesting that's a good idea.

BEGALA: I'm not either. What I'm saying is you're right about the hypocrisy.

SPRINGER: It's incredibly -- well, I'm agreeing with you. Yes, I think the news is terribly hypocritical. But there is a difference between running a story against people's wishes, and running a story -- and having a show where people choose to come on to talk about what they want. When Princess Diana, three or four years ago, well more, five years ago, went on international television and talked about how she had been unfaithful in her marriage, had she had bulimia, how she cheated in her marriage, and had contemplated suicide, no one said she shouldn't be on television.

We said that was great. Why? Because she was beautiful, she had class, she spoke with the Queen's English. That's exactly the stories the people on my show talk about.

BEGALA: In fact...

SPRINGER: They just don't happen to be...

BEGALA: ...the queen hurled that throne across to her. I think the queen just hurled that throne across...

CARLSON: Well, but wait a second, Jerry Springer. It's not all -- I mean, look, Princess Diana's bulimia, or whatever, is a little bit different than people on your show who are sleeping with their mothers-in-law.

SPRINGER: Oh, excuse me. No, no, no, wait. I'm sorry.

CARLSON: Let me ask you this...

SPRINGER: No, she said she cheated in her marriage. I'm sorry.

CARLSON: But not with her mother-in-law.

SPRINGER: No, no. She -- so yes, Princess Diana was talking about how she cheated in her marriage. That's exactly what the people on our show talked about.

CARLSON: No, but at some point, don't you need to be the adult here and say, look, you know, I -- you're hurting yourself by going on and talking about these intimate problems? And as the adult, you know, as an former attorney, or former mayor or you know as the adult here, again, I'm not going to let you?

SPRINGER: Why don't you say that to your guests?

CARLSON: Why don't you say that to your guests? Because none of them slept with their mothers-in-law. That's why.

SPRINGER: Hey Jerry, you're hurting yourself going on this show. You're looking like a fool. Get off the air. Why do you -- you know, you're not allowed in America to say, excuse me, I don't think you're right for television. I don't approve of what you're saying. I don't approve your lifestyle. I don't think this is in your best interest. You won't be on the show.

What's that about? No. If wealthy people, if rich people, if powerful people can be on television talking about their personal lives, and we love it. We have these shows every day. Other people have these shows about celebrities talking about their private lives, writing books about who they slept, their autobiographyes, all that stuff, why do you get upset if people of low income do it? Or people that don't speak the Queen's English?

I mean, it's OK. If they want to be on, let them be on. I wouldn't go on. Perhaps you wouldn't go on. But if other people want to go on, this is America. Let them do it.

BEGALA: Absolutely. Hey, if you hang on, Jerry, we're going to take a quick break. Tucker may, in fact, apply to come on. You don't know. You know, he's got a story to tell.

CARLSON: That is an excellent point. Don't throw your chairs. We'll be right back with more from the man whose show philosophy is we're not here to save the world. We're television.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Once upon a time, none other than the very august Jeff Greenfield, prior to his CNN days wrote this. "I don't think Jerry Springer goes home and pulls the wings off of flies, but that's exactly what he does on his show." Tonight Jerry Springer is on our show from Chicago.

Jerry, let me ask you, you know, Jeff Greenfield worked for Bobby Kennedy and so did you. How did that happen to come about? You began in politics as an aide to Bobby Kennedy?

SPRINGER: Well, he was way higher. I mean, he was directly contact with the senator. So he was way above me. You know, and I was a kid, just literally getting out of law school. And so, but he's great. I mean, I think he's wonderful. You know, I disagree with his pulling the wings off the flies, but otherwise, I think he's a very wise man.

CARLSON: Now Jerry, there has been talk, as you're well aware, of the former President Bill Clinton doing a talk show. Sounds like it's not going to happen. But it was batted around. You know a lot about television. Do you think he's your rightful heir? Will he succeed?

SPRINGER: Well, if he would have done a show about politics, I think it'd be wonderful. It'd be incredible. It'd be more powerful than anything we've had on television. I mean, can you imagine him on television, an hour a day, talking about the issues of the day? It almost would be like a White House in exile. So you know, every -- the administration wouldn't want to have to be dealing with him. But in fact, they would have to, because he has this huge following. He'd be talking about the issues. You know, and then all of a sudden, everyone in the media would be asking the president to respond to him.

CARLSON: You know, that is scarier than attacking transvestites, I think.

SPRINGER: Yes, it could -- yes. So I think it would be an incredibly powerful show. So if he did it, and did that, that would be fine. Obviously, he's not going to do this other stuff, no.

BEGALA: Well, you know, I was one of the people -- several, who advised Governor Clinton back in '92 to go on "THE ARSENIO HALL SHOW" and talk about -- play the saxophone with my sunglasses on, but also talk about race.

SPRINGER: That was a great decision.

BEGALA: And the riots. I'm wondering though, what's the next step? You know a lot about politics. You've been the mayor of Cincinnati. Should you be hosting presidential candidates on your show?

SPRINGER: Well, not on my show, because my show's about outrageousness. I mean, it would disrespect any serious issue. If we have -- you know, when I first started the show, we had Oliver North on, and Jesse Jackson. And we dealt with serious political issues. But that was when I first started. We changed it. And now we just do this outrageous show. So I would never have serious political people on the show, because that would demean the issue. Our show is about craziness I said. But to have a political show, would I love to do that? Of course. It'd be great. I'd love your job.

CARLSON: Now Jerry, you were, as Paul said, and good luck fighting with Paul over the left, you are at one time the mayor of Cincinnati. You left in a cloud of scandal.

SPRINGER: No, that's not true. No, don't keep repeating something that wasn't true. What...

CARLSON: Well, tell us -- there was no prostitution scandal? I thought I...

SPRINGER: No, it was five years before I ever became mayor of Cincinnati.

CARLSON: OK.

SPRINGER: Five years before I ever. So please don't say that.

CARLSON: Well, nevertheless, you've been in Ohio...

SPRINGER: Every time I'm on a show, someone keeps repeating it, you know. CARLSON: Well, I think we've made news tonight by correcting it.

SPRINGER: Yes.

CARLSON: Thank you for setting the record straight.

SPRINGER: OK.

CARLSON: You were an Ohio politician. You know something about scandal. What would you recommend for Congressman Jim Traficant, whom we had on last night, looking at prison? Can he rehabilitate himself?

SPRINGER: I don't know. Thank God I've never been in prison, never been close to going to prison. I have no idea. I mean, you know, I assume every human being can rehabilitate themselves. I would hope so. But I just don't know anything about it.

BEGALA: Well, I'm curious. But you certainly know TV. And I'm curious, just to get your assessment of the current crop of national politicians here in Washington. Play CROSSFIRE host for a minute here, Jerry. Who's good and who's bad?

SPRINGER: I think most politicians are very honest. But most politicians want to do what's best for America. I think -- or their constituency. I really believe that, but they translate that to say, well, I can do what's -- I can serve the people best. So I'll do whatever I have to do to win. And I think we're seeing a little bit of that with the president right now.

I think the president desperately doesn't want to be in the same position his dad was in. He dreads the idea of a one-term presidency and being rejected. So I think he is starting to become more and more political. And as we get closer to 2004, all this business about let's unite America, and move as one, is going to become more and more and more partisan. That's what I think happens with most politicians. They have to win.

CARLSON: Speaking of 2004, I don't think, I hope you agree, it's too early for the Jerry Springer endorsement. You're a Democrat. Who are you going to endorse? There's Joe Lieberman, John Edwards, John Kerry, Al Sharpton. Who are you going to vote for, do you think?

SPRINGER: I have no idea, but let me say this. I don't think it matters at this point who the Democratic candidate is of that group. They all seem very well qualified, because I think every presidential election is a referendum on the current administration. And so 2004 is going to be a referendum on George Bush. And it's going to be based on are we at war with Iraq? And are bodies coming back? Or has he really won this war against terrorism? If there's another terrorist act, what is his response going to be? What's happening to the economy?

I mean, if we're not having any problems in terms of the Middle East, then it's going to be what's going on here at home? We're going to judge George Bush. If we're at war with Iraq, and bodies are coming back, any Democrat will beat him. If we're not, and things are going pretty well, no Democrat will beat him. So it just doesn't matter which one of the candidates it will be.

CARLSON: That sounds like an astute analysis. Jerry Springer, lawyer, politician, king of chair throwing on TV, and now CROSSFIRE guest. We appreciate your coming on with us. Thank you.

SPRINGER: Sure, thanks for having me.

CARLSON: Thanks.

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