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Q&A WITH ZAIN VERJEE
Q&A
Aired May 16, 2002 - 12:30:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to Q&A. I'm Zain Verjee in Washington.
With me is Malaysia's Prime Min. Mahathir Mohammad. Thank you so much, sir, for agreeing to speak with us on Q&A. Thank you.
MAHATHIR MOHAMMAD, MALAYSIAN PRIME MIN.: You're welcome.
VERJEE: Let me start by asking you, how successful has your trip to Washington been?
MOHAMMAD: I would say very successful. I've been able to meet most of the government leaders and the president, senators, and congressmen, business-people and the media. They have given me a good welcome, reception.
VERJEE: What were some of the things you discussed with President Bush?
MOHAMMAD: Terrorism, of course. On how we perceive terrorism and the way to handle it.
VERJEE: What about other issues, like trade?
MOHAMMAD: Yes, trade, a little, not that much. Then there is the situation in southeast Asia, Indonesia, Myanmar.
VERJEE: Many people are looking at this visit, and they see it as a visit to mend relations with the United States. How do you see it?
MOHAMMAD: In a way, yes. But I think it has already mended. After the 11th of September, the perception of Malaysia has changed, and people have begun to understand why it is necessary for us to always be vigilant and to take measures that will insure that our country remains stable and peaceful.
VERJEE: Why do you think that September 11th was such a turning point for Malaysia?
MOHAMMAD: Because what has plagued Malaysia before seems to be effecting other countries as well.
VERJEE: Like what?
MOHAMMAD: Like the possibility of acts of terror, disruption, people who may be professing to exercise their rights, but in the end they actually encroach or deny the rights of the majority.
VERJEE: What a lot of people suggest and say is that you cracked down on suspected terrorists after September 11th. The United States, pleased with the kinds of moves you've made. You've come out as a moderate leader in the Islamic world, again, a good reception by the United States for some of the things that you've been saying and doing, particularly since you were more or less shunned and relations were strained by the United States after 1998, after the trial and conviction of Anwar Ibrahim.
Are you bemused in any way that at first the United States rejected you, shunned Malaysia, and now there's an embrace of Malaysia post- September 11th?
MOHAMMAD: We did not act against the suspected terrorists after September 11th. It was before that, long before that, when we discovered what they were up to. We investigated and found who they were.
We had already acted against them, the terrorists, and interrogated them. But when September 11th came it was suddenly what we were doing in Malaysia became relevant to what is happening in other parts of the world, and we were able to provide some information about the activities of this group in Malaysia and their possible link to other groups outside Malaysia.
That, of course, helps people to understand, especially in the United States, about what is happening in Malaysia and how it relates to what is happening in the United States.
VERJEE: I'd like to touch on that a little more in just a moment, but first, still on the United States, does your -- have you changed your perception of the United States? Has your relationship altered your views?
MOHAMMAD: Well, of course, when the United States began to show some understanding of what has been happening in Malaysia, naturally we changed our perception on the United States as well.
VERJEE: You've been fairly critical in the past of the United States.
MOHAMMAD: Yes, we were critical, because the United States was very critical of us.
VERJEE: Let's talk a little bit then about the war on terror, some of the things that constituted your discussions with President Bush. How serious a threat is terrorism in the region of southeast Asia? And does it offer a fertile ground for terrorists to operate?
MOHAMMAD: It has not yet become very serious. We can still handle it. But if we are lax, and we don't take certain measures, I am quite sure it will become a very serious threat to our country and to the region.
VERJEE: You've signed an agreement recently with Indonesia and the Philippines. How effective do you think that is going to be? And in particular, are you frustrated by Indonesia's apparent unwillingness to crackdown on extremists?
MOHAMMAD: I think the agreement between us is very good, because we have a need to exchange information, and to try and locate people who are involved, wherever they may be, in our three countries.
I'm not frustrated with Indonesia or with the Philippines, because they have their own situation to handle, and they cannot handle it in the same way we handle the situation in Malaysia. They have problems of strength of the support for the government.
VERJEE: Let's talk about the situation specifically, then, in Malaysia. There's a connection between al Qaeda, September 11th, and Malaysia. The suspected 20th hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui, believed to have met two of the September 11th hijackers in Malaysia. How concerned are you that this is evidence that shows that September 11th, or at least some of it, was planned in Malaysia?
MOHAMMAD: I don't think they were planned in Malaysia. From what we have discovered, they function as cells which do not know what the other cells are doing.
I doubt whether they reveal the things they want to do to each other. Each one has apparently got its own mission, and those in Malaysia were mainly concerned about how to overthrow our government.
Of course they may have met, but I don't know whether they actually discussed the attack on the World Trade Center.
VERJEE: But the extent of that sort of operation going on in Malaysia, September 11th hijackers are coming and going out of Malaysia. It would suggest that Malaysia appears to be some sort of terrorist hub.
MOHAMMAD: No. They were in Switzerland. And I think if you want to find a hub, it is here, in the United States, because they have been training here for a year, I am told, in the United States.
So it is here that they planned the action they were taking. It's not in Malaysia, I think.
VERJEE: On the one hand, though, you say Malaysia isn't a hub or a haven, as you are saying, for terrorists, yet you keep arresting people, alleging that they are terrorists. So that seems a bit contradictory.
MOHAMMAD: It's not contradictory at all, because these are the cells that are tasked with taking action in Malaysia. From the information we gathered from them, their main concern is how to overthrow the Malaysian government. They don't seem to be concerned about other countries.
VERJEE: But how do you know who is a terrorist and who isn't? You know, who is trying to overthrow the government and who isn't? Because in a lot of instances, we've seen you arrest people, but not come out with evidence.
MOHAMMAD: When we arrest people, we don't just obtain them. We arrest people because we want to know what they were doing, and we have to rehabilitate them. And these people, when they were arrested, not only confessed, they actually boasted about their plans to overthrow the government by force of arms and how they were going to.
VERJEE: Many of them now say these were forced confessions, when they're in jail, that they're tortured, brutalized, forced to make a confession and then thrown back.
MOHAMMAD: Well, that is an assumption that is almost made about these natives who do not know how to obey the rules of law.
In Malaysia, we uphold the rules of law, although we may not be considered among the civilized nations of the world.
VERJEE: Skeptics, though, have wondered that in your pursuit of defying terrorism, of pursuing it down, you actually used it as an excuse to silent your critics, to discredit your opponents.
MOHAMMAD: I don't have any need to. I have 3/4 majority in parliament. We have won elections, fair elections, all the time, and we have lost elections, too. Two of our states are with the opposition.
So we don't have to bother about torturing people and forcing them to confess and the like.
Of course, with skeptics, you can say anything you like. They are going to doubt it. They are going to say what they think happened, because they are skeptics.
VERJEE: I'll touch on a little more about what those skeptics are saying in just a moment, but another connection that's just come up in recent days between Malaysia and al Qaeda has been focused on a Web site. And this is a Web site that is showing pictures of Osama bin Laden, posting documents and articles signed by al Qaeda. It's also a Web site that is showing videos of the last moments of September 11th hijackers, saying that they have 18 more videos.
CNN has just traced the host companies of this Web site and it turns out that there are two in Malaysia. Do you know anything about this? And if you do -- if you don't, what's your reaction?
MOHAMMAD: I don't know about that. But I think quite a lot of Web sites originate in American actually.
VERJEE: But specifically, this one has been traced to Malaysia.
MOHAMMAD: Well, you can say that of Malaysia. You can say the same thing of America.
VERJEE: Will Malaysian authorities investigate this seriously?
MOHAMMAD: We find that it is very difficult to trace people who use the Internet to distribute a lot of filth.
VERJEE: We're going to take a pause right here, Mahathir Mohammad. We'll take a short break.
We'll have more from the Malaysian prime minister in just a moment. Please stay with Q&A.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VERJEE: Welcome back to Q&A in Washington. I'm Zain Verjee.
We're speaking to Malaysia's Prime Min. Mahathir Mohammad.
Sir, in more than 20 years in power, you've got your share of supporters and you've got your share of critics. You've been described in a number of ways. Here are some.
"Mahathir Mohammad is on the blacklist of every major human rights group in the world."
The Committee of the Protection of Journalists says you are the "worst enemy of the press."
The State Dept. Human Rights Report says -- it talks about the erosion of judicial independence under your leadership.
A fair amount of criticism leveled at you. Your response.
MOHAMMAD: Well, I criticize the press and the media, and some of the NGOs, and I don't expect them to say nice things about me. And I don't care as to what they say about me.
What is important is that the people in Malaysia believe in me, and they vote me to power each time I face an election, and I have faced five elections so far.
VERJEE: Much of the criticism that has provided the basis for that kind of accusation to be leveled against you surrounds what is known as the Internal Security Act. There are questions and concerns about that; about how you use it, when you're in trouble, how you're use it to keep yourself in power, how you use it against your opponents, and that it basically gives you a green card to invoke it and silence your opposition.
MOHAMMAD: Well, that's what they would like to say, but if you looked at the way the Internal Security Act was implemented -- we I became prime minister, something like 800 people were released under my onus, including some of the people who were detained by my predecessors.
If I fear these people, I wouldn't release them. And I have no necessity to do this. You can see every election, I have won with very little difficult. There have been attempts, of course, to push me aside and take over the presidency of my party. They have failed.
VERJEE: Why would you arrest, put political opponents, in jail.
MOHAMMAD: I don't.
VERJEE: Why would you detain them without trial.
MOHAMMAD: I don't.
VERJEE: . without due process.
MOHAMMAD: Which political opponent?
(CROSSTALK)
VERJEE: There are six opposition members that you arrested, I believe, in April last year, and they're coming out, saying we've not been given due process, there is no warrant that we were given to put us -- and there is no reason except, they say, Mahathir Mohammad doesn't want us around, and he's using the Internal Security Act to silence us.
MOHAMMAD: These are minor leagues in the opposition, in any case. And of course they.
VERJEE: If they're so minor, why would you do it?
MOHAMMAD: Because they have done something wrong. They have broken the law, or they have done something which puts them under suspicion of doing something that is not good for the country.
VERJEE: But not a single one of them has been charged.
MOHAMMAD: Of course they are not charged.
VERJEE: No details have been.
MOHAMMAD: Because the law -- the law says that there is no charge to be preferred because this is a detention, an act of detention. A preventive act. A preventive act is an act that is carried out before a crime is being committed.
VERJEE: Isn't that what they say the whole problem of the law is about? It allows you to, they say, to be very non-democratic.
MOHAMMAD: Of course they will say so. But if they get into power, they're going to use the same law.
VERJEE: But the fact of the matter is, you're in power, and you are using that law, and the six.
MOHAMMAD: The law was there. The law was there, and it was used by the first prime minister, the second prime minister, the third prime minister. And they used those laws much more often than I do. And you can check on the records.
VERJEE: But does that make it right, even though, that you use it? That people calling for the.
MOHAMMAD: I have a responsibility for the country, and the law is there in order to protect the interests of the country, not my interests.
VERJEE: Don't you have a responsibility, though, also, to promote democracy in your country and allow people due process, to allow people their right to a trial.
MOHAMMAD: There is due process. When we put persons on trial, again, the accusation is that we manipulated the judiciary. So you cannot get it right, you know. These people, if you show a piece of paper that is white, and you say this is white -- no, no, no. It is black. How do you answer such people?
VERJEE: Those six political detainees made a statement recently. It was quoted in Human Rights Watch. They said that Anwar Ibrahim, your former number two, is in jail, in critical condition. They say he's suffering from a serious spinal injury from brutal beatings, and they say.
MOHAMMAD: Of course. And you believe that?
VERJEE: No, I want you to respond to that. They say the want Anwar Ibrahim to go for medical treatment abroad. Will you allow that to happen?
MOHAMMAD: There was a doctor who came more than a year ago, who said that unless Anwar Ibrahim is released and taken out of the country for treatment in Europe, he would die.
Now it's more than a year, he's still walking around.
VERJEE: But the fact of the matter is that this man also was, they say, your political opponent, had no due process. the process was very flawed, and that you really used, again, the opportunity here to get rid of someone you thought was a threat to you. What's your response?
MOHAMMAD: He is not a threat to me.
VERJEE: Was he a threat to you?
MOHAMMAD: No, he was not a threat to me.
VERJEE: Then why not allow him to speak freely and say what he wants?
MOHAMMAD: He can say -- he's been writing on the Internet all kinds of scurrilous stories about the government. We have never even stopped him.
VERJEE: Let's move on to the Middle East, an issue where you have come out fairly strongly. You've been complimented by the United States for promoting a moderate voice in the region, for criticizing suicide bombings.
What do you feel needs to be done in the Middle East to find a way out?
MOHAMMAD: We must attend to the causes of the way people behave there. Why do these people commit, or rather carryout, suicide bombings? We have to determine the causes, remove the causes.
We have to move in -- the UN should move in and separate the combatants, and the border between Israel and Palestine must be identified and the state of Israel, as well as Palestine, must be recognized by everyone.
VERJEE: Why haven't we heard from other moderate Muslim leaders? Where are those moderate voices?
MOHAMMAD: They are, but it's no good they are saying those things, because they may not be supported by their own people.
VERJEE: Do you think, then, that American support for authoritarian Muslim governments effective hurts its efforts to reach out to those moderate voices?
MOHAMMAD: I have no comments to make.
VERJEE: Do you think, though, that the United States could do a better job of reaching out to those moderate voices?
MOHAMMAD: People always can do better than what they are doing now, everybody.
VERJEE: You're the leader of an Islamic country. How much does it concern you when you see other Muslim leaders not speaking out against suicide bombings as strongly as you have? Or using the Israeli-Palestinian issue to defect from their own problems at home? Does that concern you? What do you think about that?
MOHAMMAD: Well, I don't make comments about other people. They may have their own problems.
VERJEE: But you have a view.
MOHAMMAD: I have a view, that I express about Malaysia and its stand.
VERJEE: So you don't think that there's anything more that they could do to lean on the situation in the Middle East?
MOHAMMAD: Probably.
VERJEE: Probably, yes, there is more they can do?
MOHAMMAD: Yes, yes.
VERJEE: Like what?
MOHAMMAD: Like, they can have a common stand on this issue, and decide.
VERJEE: How do you see your role as a leader in the Islamic world? I mean, do you see that you can bring that moderate voice that will lead somewhere, to the crisis in the Middle East?
MOHAMMAD: I don't consider myself as a leader in the Islamic world. I'm a leader in Malaysia. I don't have ambitions.
VERJEE: Let's talk about the economy a little in Malaysia. Malaysia has forecast 3.5 percent growth. Is that still on track?
MOHAMMAD: Yes, I think so. Other people believe that we will do better, but we still maintain that a 3.5 percent growth will be achievable.
VERJEE: What did you learn from the Asian financial crisis? And what conclusions did you draw from that, in '97? And how developing or emerging countries should deal with a situation like that?
MOHAMMAD: I learned not to follow other people's advice without scrutinizing it very carefully. And as a result, we found that the advice was defective, and we had to device our own way of dealing with our problem.
VERJEE: Recently, you've been on a bit of an arms buying spree. You've ordered Polish tanks, French submarines. Last month you bought defense systems from Britain and Russia, and there was talk on your trip here to the United States, you wanted to buy United States fighter jets.
Now, the scope and the scale of these purchases suggest that you want to expand some kind of regional influence. They suggest, some analysts say, look, a strong military could add weight to Malaysia's economic strength.
Why are you making these moves?
MOHAMMAD: You know, we are merely upgrading our armaments in increments. And because now we have more money than we had before, obviously we are going to buy the latest, and we're going to buy more. It's a question of how much money you spend. Our budget for defense is very low. In Malaysia, 20 percent of our budget goes to education, which is our priority, not arms.
VERJEE: How concerned are you, though, about the rise of China as a potential superpower in the region?
MOHAMMAD: Not at all concerned. We are very good friends of China.
VERJEE: Do you think the United States should maintain a military presence in the region?
MOHAMMAD: I don't believe that having a military presence there is going to help. You are merely going to make the Chinese nervous. You are going to make them feel that they are the future enemy. And when you treat people as your future enemy, they will become your present enemy.
VERJEE: There's been a crackdown by Malaysia on illegal workers in the country. It's been in the press reports over the last few weeks. Why are you doing that now?
MOHAMMAD: Because there are no jobs in Malaysia. They are in Malaysia illegally. And when they have no jobs, some of them resort to crimes, and there is no reason why we should allow them to stay in the country when they are a burden to the community and a threat to peace.
VERJEE: Some suggest, though, that you need those workers.
MOHAMMAD: Well, we need some of them, but not all.
VERJEE: There are also reports that suggest that you've been rather violent in the way you're treating the illegal immigrants.
MOHAMMAD: Yes, that is the usual.
VERJEE: . brutal about the whole manner in which you're.
MOHAMMAD: We go around hammering everybody, as you can see. You are welcome to go and see these people being hammered. It's open.
VERJEE: You seem to take offense in a way at some of the criticisms that are leveled to you, both in this instance as well as earlier -- we were speaking about the Internal Security Act, about Anwar Ibrahim. Obviously it's a sore spot with you, a sensitive issue, that you keep addressing.
Why do you think so much criticism is leveled at you if there is no truth to it at all?
MOHAMMAD: Because we criticize people who tell lies, tell lies about us. And because of that, they get very angry.
For example, two newspapers keep on repeating, every time they mention Malaysia, they say, "where the press is controlled by the government." And yet, those newspapers, "The Herald Tribune" and "The Asian Wall Street Journal," are printed in Malaysia, distributed in Malaysia, and in the region, and we have never, never censored them or touched them. And yet, they say "where the press is controlled." And they refuse to see that there are so many newspapers in Malaysia which condemn the government.
VERJEE: Final question -- we just have a few moments left. You've been the leader of your country for 21 years. Looking back on your leadership, on a personal level, is there anything you would change? Is there anything you would do differently?
MOHAMMAD: Not much. I think I would have done the same all over again.
VERJEE: That's Q&A, from Washington. We've been speaking to Malaysia's Prime Min. Mahathir Mohammad. We'll be back at the same time tomorrow, 16:30 GMT, but for now the news continues, here on CNN.
END
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