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CNN Live Today

Interview with Dennis Hays, Jeff Flake

Aired May 20, 2002 - 15:46   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Back to our conversation about the Cuban-U.S. relationship. From Phoenix Arizona, Representative Jeff Flake is with us, a Republican, sits on the House International Relations Committee, against the embargo. He says end it today.

And pro-embargo, Ambassador Dennis Hays is also with us. He is with the Cuban-American national foundation. Good afternoon to both of you. Thanks for hanging out and sticking around with us. To the congressman, you say end that embargo today. Why?

REP. JEFF FLAKE (R-AZ), INTL. RELATIONS CMTE.: Well, the embargo, I believe has been Fidel Castro's lifeline. He is able to blame the failure of socialism on us. We have a policy and I agree with the president's foreign policy in general. We have a policy that engagement around the world and China or in North Vietnam or in -- yes, sorry, Vietnam, or in North Korea, that it will help bring those countries around and provide a more rapid transition.

HEMMER: Any guarantee it will change Cuba thought, if such a relationship existed and developed?

FLAKE: No, not at all. There is no guarantee at all, but if you stand by the principle that engagement works, then why do we suspend that principle for Cuba. It just doesn't make sense.

HEMMER: Ambassador, what about that? If we were working towards Democracy in places like North Korea, you can go back to Vietnam, if you want to take that example as well. Doesn't it help when the U.S. is allowed an open door into a country?

DENNIS HAYS, CUBAN AMERICAN NATIONAL FOUNDATION: Actually, I don't think there is a case to be made, or certainly not a strong case to be made if that takes place. Embargoes are tools and they have to be used as tools. What I think the president did today was very clearly state that this is a tool we intend to use. And that if the Castro regime begins to undertake reforms, then of course we can respond, but not until then.

HEMMER: If we are in the same situation we were in, in say 1961, 1959, pick your year, go back as far as you want, why not look ourselves in the mirror and say, you know what, it's not working right now. We need to change and adapt here.

HAYS: Well, I think if you look at what the goals of the embargo have always been, which is to deny resources to a repressive regime, not to change that regime. A very important part of what the president said today is I think what has been missing from our policy, and that is like we did in Eastern Europe and South Africa and other places, we are now beginning or continue to reach out to the Cuban people, reach past the regime and try to get to the people that are the future of that island.

HEMMER: Congressman, how do you that? And while you answer that, how much is politics at work here in this Cuban-American relationship? Is the Cuban-American lobby so strong that any politician in Washington tries to change is going to be stymied?

FLAKE: On the first question, you really can't have people to people contact when we deny Americans the ability to travel there. That is what is striking about our policy. It really doesn't punish Fidel Castro. He is firmly in power. Has been in power. He will remain in power as long as we simply say hey, we're not going to deny Americans the ability to go there and deny the ability of trade to work its wonders.

I mean, there is something Adam Smith used to call the "invisible hand." Sometimes it is tough to see. But it doesn't discriminate. If it will work in China, and it will work elsewhere, it will work in Cuba as well.

HEMMER: Wondering, Ambassador Hays, if the U.S. in terms of an economic picture is truly losing out to other countries around the world that are getting all of the contracts in that country of 11 million.

HAYS: What we are losing out on is having uncollectible debts. If you look at track record of Cuba, and remember this is a bankrupt dictatorship, every country that has done with Cuba has regretted it. So what we have avoided is having taxpayers having to make good on bad loans.

HEMMER: We only have about 30 seconds left, Ambassador, the calls from the White House today, how realistic are the demands?

HAYS: Well, I think what it does is it frames the issue. The issue is that Fidel Castro of course, at any time, could choose to release political prisoners, could choose to allow free access or flow of information. But he doesn't. So we need it have a policy that keeps pressure on that regime, while at the same time trying to reach out and minimize the suffering of the Cuban people.

HEMMER: Gentlemen, we will put this conversation on pause for a moment. The same question to Representative Flake when we come back. We will talk about the U.S.-Cuban policy once again. Back in two minutes, folks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Just a couple short moments here before we get to Judy Woodruff and INSIDE POLITICS. But back to our guests right now and the U.S.-Cuban situation. In the strong call from the White House earlier today in Washington, now again in Miami, Florida, with us Representative Jeff Flake, Republican out of Phoenix and Ambassador Dennis Hays from the Cuban-American National Foundation.

Gentlemen we are talking about the calls from the White House earlier today. Congressman Flake, how realistic is it, this laundry list of demands that came from Washington earlier today that will indeed be implemented in any sense, any time soon in Cuba?

FLAKE: Well, make no mistake, we need to keep saying it, but I don't think we are can realistically expect Fidel Castro it follow through. We ought to also remember, we are calling on him to have free elections by next year, yet U.S. law says that if he wins those elections or if he is involved in any new government, that the sanctions remain.

So if we think we are actually motivating Castro to hold free and fair elections, I just don't see it.

HEMMER: And to be fair to the White House, elections are just one of the items on that list.

FLAKE: Right. Right. I don't think he will move at all. I have very little faith in Fidel Castro. That's why we need to look beyond him and deal with the next generation in Cuba and you can best do that by engaging with them, actually allowing Americans the freedom to travel there.

HEMMER: Ambassador Hays, you get the final comment here. I want to know about not only the next generation the Congressman refers to, but did Jimmy Carter's visit move the ball at all?

HAYS: I think it did. Obviously we disagree on some things he said, but he deserves great credit for standing there and speaking out directly to the Cuban people and giving them a message they never heard before, and that is that they are entitled to their own destiny, to choose their own destiny.

And that is a seed that I think is going to spread like wildfire.

HEMMER: For those who wanted Castro out back in 1959, it is now 2002 and quickly coming up on 2003. Gentlemen, thank you. Jeff Flake from Phoenix and Ambassador Dennis Hays in Washington. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate your comments.

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