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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
India and Pakistan on the Brink of War
Aired May 31, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, did al Qaeda try to shoot down a U.S. military plane?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We take very seriously the fact that our opponents do have service-to-air missiles.
BLITZER: Does al Qaeda now have airliners in its sights? The inside story of an FBI warning.
Can the U.S. head off a catastrophe? Today nuclear neighbors on the brink. With India and Pakistan massing troops and preparing missiles, an urgent U.S. mission to South Asia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Hello, it's Friday, May 31, 2002. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We begin with nuclear foes on the edge. They are in a stare-down, preparing their missiles and massing troops on their borders. Americans are being urged to get out of India. The State Department today advised all but essential diplomats to leave and called on tens of thousands of other Americans to do the same.
Officials say there are plenty of commercial flights available. Britain is also urging its citizens to leave. Both countries had earlier issued warnings for their nationals in Pakistan.
The flash point of this crisis is Kashmir, which India and Pakistan bitterly fight over. We have reporters on both sides of what's called the line of control there. Let's begin our coverage with our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTRYE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well Wolf, recently Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said that a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan would be bad, he said, very bad. Well, today we got an idea of how bad, courtesy of the defense intelligence agency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Pentagon intelligence analysts who are paid to think about the unthinkable calculate that an all out nuclear war between India and Pakistan would initially produce as many as 17 million casualties, including between nine and 12 million killed and two to five million injured. As U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld prepares to meet with Indian and Pakistani leaders next week, he is hinting he may use the sobering assessment to underscore (UNINTELLIGIBLE) nuclear brinkmanship.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We've given a lot of thought to their use and what the effects are, what the immediate effects are and what the lingering effects are and what the secondary effects can be with respect to other problems.
MCINTYRE: The defense intelligence agency assessment is based on a worst-case scenario, in which India and Pakistan use most, if not all, of their nuclear arsenals and hit highly populated areas. Both sides have, at the very least, dozens of warheads and the missiles to deliver them.
TERESITA SCHAFFER, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: India, generally speaking, is believed to have more. The range that you hear about is from about 25 to somewhere in the neighborhood of 100. Pakistan is believed to have fewer. The fact is that even one or two is an arsenal that could have a devastating effect.
MCINTYRE: Computer modeling done by the Heritage Foundation shows that if India hit the Pakistani capital of Islamabad with its largest nuclear device, a 43-kiloton bomb, the initial blast would kill 107,000 people and extend two miles. Fallout would be lethal for about 3.3 miles from ground zero. Of course a Pakistani nuclear strike on New Delhi would cause similar devastation and inevitably the death toll would grow as tens of thousands more died of radiation poisoning, disease and starvation in the weeks and months after.
India has a no first use policy, but Pakistan does not. With a smaller, weaker military, it's been counting on its nuclear deterrence to keep India from waging a conventional war that it would likely win. The question, Wolf, if push came to shove, would Pakistan push the nuclear button.
BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much for that report. And the flash point of the crisis is, of course, Kashmir, which India and Pakistan bitterly fight over.
We have reporters on both sides of the line of control there. Kasra Naji is in the Indian-controlled area, and Kamal Hyder is on the Pakistani side. We begin our coverage with Kasra Naji.
We'll get to Kasra Naji's report in just a moment. We're going to take a quick commercial break. When we come back we'll go to both sides of the line of control in India and Pakistan. We'll also have the latest, the aftermath of that helicopter rescue effort that was botched yesterday on Mt. Hood in Oregon. Stay with us.
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BLITZER: The situation between India and Pakistan is very, very tense right now. Extremely tense because both countries are, of course, nuclear powered countries. Both countries have nuclear weapons. At issue Kashmir, the disputed area between India and Pakistan.
We have our reporters covering both sides of what's called the line of control.
Kasra Naji is in the Indian-controlled area. Kamal Hyder is on the Pakistani side. We begin our coverage with Kasra Naji.
KASRA NAJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: ...main mosque here in (UNINTELLIGIBLE). There's a growing realization that any war here is not going to solve the Kashmir issue and would only lead to more bloodletting. Those people we talked to, they said they have claimed their hope on the international community, the U.S. particularly, to pull back the two sides from the brink of war.
As they prayed here today, there were more cross-border shellings across the line of control. We know at least in three sectors already dozens of people have been killed. More people have been injured and nearly by all accounts, nearly 200,000 people have already abandoned their homes and moved away from the front line.
Kasra Naji, CNN, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Indian-controlled Kashmir.
KAMAL HYDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Friday is a holy day in the Islamic world and here in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the people of Kashmir were praying for peace, not war. And as the firing across the line of control continues, most people in Kashmir are determined to avoid war. The prime minister (UNITELLIGIBLE) in Kashmir told us earlier today that there was no connection between al Qaeda and the Kashmiri self- determination movement.
Kamal Hyder, CNN, (UNITELLIGIBLE) Pakistan.
BLITZER: Two years ago I went to what many regard as the most dangerous spot on earth. It wasn't the demilitarized zone separating North and South Korea. It wasn't the Middle East, where Israelis and Palestinians remain bitterly at odds.
It was what's called the line of control in that disputed territory that's called Kashmir. That's where we walked through the trenches. That's where Indian and Pakistani heavily armed troops face each other -- at places, eyeball-to-eyeball.
We saw that hatred in their eyes, and I must tell you, it was chilling, something I will never forget. But, why has this piece of land caused so much trouble and strife? CNN's Renay San Miguel joins me from the CNN center in Atlanta with some answers - Renay.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, in more peaceful times Kashmir was actually known as the Switzerland of the east because of its natural beauty. Now, as you said, it's being called the most dangerous place on the planet because of two countries that have fought over it for 50 years, India and Pakistan, are the world's newest nuclear powers. Now how did all this get started? Well Kashmir's been a major flash point between India and Pakistan since these two countries won their independence from Britain in 1947. At that time Kashmir had to make a choice. Was it going to be part of Pakistan or India? The Indian ruler of Kashmir at that time originally wanted to remain independent, eventually did decide to acceed to India.
The problem here is, is that Kashmir's 12 million people, of those 12 million, 70 percent are Muslim. That is the predominant religion in Pakistan, India being predominantly Hindu, so you have the source of the conflict here; it's ethnic; it's religious.
This dotted line that you see right here is, as you mentioned, the line of control set up after the first war over Kashmir between these two countries in 1948. They fought another one in 1965. This line is monitored by the United Nations.
An estimated one million troops from both countries, on both sides of the line of control at this time, but India's army is much, much bigger, close to a million troops overall, compared to just under a half a million for Pakistan, which is why Pakistan has said, as Jamie McIntyre just told you, it would consider the use of nuclear weapons if it finds itself backed into a corner.
Now that would be more than enough to get America's attention, but this is now also impacting the war on terrorism because there are an 6,000, an estimated 6,000 Pakistani troops over here on the border with Afghanistan and Pakistan tracking down al Qaeda, keeping al Qaeda, fugitive al Qaeda from going back to Afghanistan.
But Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has said he is going to start pulling some of his troops back over here to his side of the line of control in Kashmir. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld would rather that not happen, so he is heading to the region next week to see what he can do to help diffuse this tense situation.
Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Renay San Miguel, for that excellent explanation of what's going on. And for information, please go to my Web site, cnn.com/Wolf. See for yourself what nuclear capabilities Pakistan and India have.
Moving on. At this time yesterday we were looking at some dramatic pictures of a rescue attempt gone awry on Oregon's Mt. Hood. What we didn't know at the time is how things actually turned out.
For the latest, let's go to CNN national correspondent, Frank Buckley. He's at the foot of Mt. Hood - Frank.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, remarkably all of those helicopter crew members survived that horrific crash that we all witnessed live on CNN. In fact, none of those crew members suffered any life threatening injuries. Three of the climbers, however, did die. They were in that initial fall into the crevasse that took place at around 9:00 a.m. yesterday morning. There were nine climbers in all that fell into that crevasse. Seven people remain hospitalized. Four of them are the climbers. Three of them are the crew members from that helicopter who, again, somehow survived that horrific crash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Pave Hawk helicopter went down as rescuers were preparing to lift an injured climber to safety. Suddenly the unexpected live on television.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... hang on fellows, oh my goodness. Oh that is horrible.
BUCKLEY: Incredibly all of the helicopter crewmembers survived. Three remained hospitalized Friday. The worst of the injured, the flight engineer Martin Mills listed in serious condition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I watched one guy take two entire flips in the helicopter, hanging outside of it until his web (ph) gunner's belt finally broke, at which point it just left him sitting in the snow. And each consecutive roll left one more person sitting in the snow. So this helicopter finally came to rest upside down with five people just sitting in the snow, kind of wondering what in the heck had just happened.
BUCKLEY: Officials say the climbers who fell into the crevasse were in three separate groups. Climbers in the first group fell. They slid into the others and all of them dropped into the 30-feet deep crevasse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw the people coming towards us and tried to get out of the way, which appears that I got of the way, but Jeremiah Moffett (ph) got hit by one of the guys coming down. Then we just tried to tried to (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but it didn't do anything because there was so many different - so many other people pulling us down in the crevasse.
BUCKLEY: Late Friday morning the last of the deceased climbers was recovered from the mountain. Now investigators will take over to try to determine why the helicopter crashed.
Frank Buckley, CNN, Mt. Hood, Oregon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: In just a few minutes Colonel Scott Nielson of the Air National Guard will conduct a news briefing on the investigation into yesterday's crash. First, though, he's going to talk to us. He joins us now live.
Colonel, give us the latest on the investigation. What do you know at this point caused this crash?
COL. SCOTT NIELSON, 939th AIR RESCUE WING AIR NATIONAL GUARD: Well at this point we're convening an investigation board - I shouldn't - one small matter of point for all those Air Force reservists out there were actually an Air Force Reserve unit, but that's a small minor point.
We're convening an investigation board, which has already taken possession of the debris field and the helicopter itself. We've also done preliminary interviews of all of the air crew folks involved and we've also done preliminary medical testing, that kind of thing.
At this point we're simply preserving evidence for the primitic (ph) board, which will arrive here in the next 48 to 72 hours. They'll take another four to six weeks to come up with the final cause. At this point we really don't know enough to even speculate on that kind of thing.
BLITZER: So at this point it's impossible to say whether it was a mechanical error, whether it was a human error, or what the error - if there was an error at all that may have caused this dramatic crash that we witnessed on live television.
NIELSON: Well in essence you've outlined exactly what the investigation board will look at. They'll look at all of those areas. We'll go into a lot detail including obviously the videotape that all the news organizations have shown, as you just did, and we'll come up with a cause. Again, in the Air Force system, that's a privileged document, but there will be a press release, which will go into the essentials of it. That'll be approximately four to six months down the road.
BLITZER: Colonel Nielson of the Air Force Reserve, not the International Guard. Thanks ...
NIELSON: That's right.
BLITZER: ... so much for joining us. I should have known better as a former Pentagon correspondent, appreciate it very much. Go ahead and do your briefing now for the rest of the world, appreciate it. We'll continue our monitoring of that.
Yesterday during this program we heard the chilling account of KGW TV reporter, Pat Dooris as he watched the disaster unfold on Mt. Hood. Today, Pat Dooris joins us from a helicopter. He's flying over the crash site. He'll give us a little tour. What's going on Pat?
PAT DOORIS, KGW TV REPORTER: Wolf, we're at 10,000 feet here in Sky Aid (ph), our news helicopter. We're on the side of Mt. Hood, the south side. It's about 50 miles east of Portland, and it is a beautiful mountain to behold, especially on a day like this. Let's take a look out on the nose camera and you'll see it is 11,200 feet to the top.
That area to the right is the most often climbed area. It's the south slope. It is where the least experienced of climbers start and go on up through the summit. It's an area trail called the "hogs back" to get to the top there. Most often we'll have problems when climbers that are inexperienced and ir-prepared (ph) get stuck in a snowstorm as the weather closes in.
That was not the case yesterday. As we go in, you'll see that big glaciated mound and rock to the right side. That's called the crater rock and there is the Air Force helicopter laying on its top. That ridge to the right follows up. That is actually called "the hogs back", and if Carl Peterson (ph), chief photographer can pan up, you can sort of see - stop right there Carl (ph) - you can see right in the middle of your screen kind of a crack in the snow.
The overhang is called a birshrum (ph) and the actual crevice is called a crevasse. That is what the climbers fell down into. And we can show you, if we pan up, they were actually above the crevasse there, and one rope team of a couple guys tied together slipped and fell, took out another rope team and then finally hit a third rope team pulling everybody into the crevasse as they were all above.
And then as we were flying the rescue yesterday watching here with Brian Sonei (ph), our pilot at the controls, we saw this helicopter come to pick up the climbers and as they were doing some very difficult, very technical extraction, first they got one person out, everything was great. Then they got a second person out, and then this helicopter came to hoist a third person out, and that's when everything got really crazy.
They dipped the tail and then hit the nose and then tumbled about 1,000 feet down the mountain. Incredibly everyone on board the helicopter lived, even though all four were thrown out. Three climbers died on this mountain, but it was an amazing thing to see.
Back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Pat Dooris, our excellent affiliate reporter from KGW TV reporting today 24 hours after that dramatic, dramatic reporting job he did yesterday. Excellent work yesterday. Thanks for joining us today. Pat Dooris from our Portland affiliate KGW TV.
The trouble began when one climber slipped, starting a chain reaction that pulled members of three separate climbing groups into this 25-foot-deep mountain crevasse. One climber used his cell phone to make a frantic plea for help. Today we have a tape of that call.
DISPATCHER: 911, what's the location of your emergency?
CLEVE JOINER: This is on Mt. Hood on the south side about 800 feet from the peak. We have seven people down, possibly four injured. They fell into the crevasse.
DISPATCHER: On the south side?
JOINER: South side, above the lift, about 800 feet from the top.
BLITZER: Number of rescue workers were on the mountainside tending to the climbers when the helicopter ran into trouble. Steve Rollins saw the chopper go down. He joins us now from the foot of the mountain.
Steve, thanks so much for joining us. Tell us what it was like those dramatic moments yesterday on the mountain.
STEVE ROLLINS, VICE PRESIDENT, PORTLAND MOUNTAIN RESCUE: Well, to start off with just working around these helicopters is intense even without a crash. The rotor wash from these aircraft can produce 110 mile an hour winds. It's impossible to really hear anything. It will blow anything away that's not tied down. All the personnel down below is being sandblasted by blowing ice, so you're really doing your best to kind of protect your eyes and keep an eye on the patient and helicopter, make sure everything's safe.
BLITZER: So you were one of the rescue workers. You and your colleagues were physically endangered as well, isn't that right?
ROLLINS: Absolutely. Just by the mere fact of doing mountain rescue, there's risks involved. And when you have helicopters, that just adds another layer of risk. But we had a number of rescuers directly below the helicopter. I was roughly 20 feet below the helicopter behind the tail rotor, so definitely not a place that you want to be if it's going down.
BLITZER: You -- all of you are volunteers, is that right or are you professionals?
ROLLINS: There is a mix of teams up there. I'm with Portland Mountain Rescue, which is entirely volunteer rescue group. There are also paramedics, which are paid full-time paramedics on scene and also of course the military crews.
BLITZER: Who pays the bill for all the volunteers, all the rescue operations on Mt. Hood?
ROLLINS: Well for an organization like Portland Mountain Rescue, we're solely funded from donations from climbers. We don't charge for rescue. We don't get any government funding. Obviously there's other paid sources there, the sheriff's department, the paramedics, and then the military, and they have their own funding sources.
BLITZER: One final question, do you resent the fact that some of those climbers are not properly trained, endangering not only themselves, but rescue workers like yourself?
ROLLINS: Not at all. In face in this case I really didn't see anything -- I mean certainly we see rescues where people were reckless and dangerous. In this case, climbing conditions were excellent up there, and I think this was just a case of, you know, bad things happening to good people. One person fell and it just swept them all down.
BLITZER: Steve Rollins, good work. Thanks for joining us and glad to see you're safe and sound. Appreciate it very much.
ROLLINS: Thank you.
BLITZER: And here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of the day is this. Who should foot the bill for rescues? Go to my Web page, cnn.com. That's where you can vote, cnn.com/wolf. While you're there, send me your comments. I'll read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also where you can read my daily online column, cnn.com/wolf.
We were the first to tell you about a new threat to airplanes, shoulder-fired missiles. Coming up, 30 of them uncovered. We'll tell you where.
Also ahead, explosives missing. Should you be worried? I'll ask the special agent in charge. And a busy department store, armed robbers. How does it play out and who gets saved? See the ending. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Kicking off our international stories.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
They're singing in the streets in Senegal after the former French colony defeated France, opening soccer's World Cup tournament with a stunning upset. South Korea and Japan are cohosting the month-long tournament with stadiums guarded by snipers, anti-aircraft missiles and fighter jets. The U.S. begins play next Wednesday against Portugal.
Israeli troops, backed by tanks and attack helicopters, swept through the West Bank city of Nablus and a nearby refugee camp, rounding up dozens of suspected militants. The raids follow a fresh series of terror attacks, and troops blew up the home of a Palestinian who carried out Monday's bloody suicide bombing in a Tel Aviv suburb.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
The ongoing violence in the region has ripped apart families on both sides. Today, we look at one story of devastating loss from that suicide bombing earlier this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
In Israel and the Palestinian territories, the scenes have become so familiar. A bomb blast or gunfire, wailing sirens, screaming, suffering, followed by accusations in the media, political fallout, claims of responsibility. What often is not seen, the excruciating pain that follows. Today, an Israeli couple showed that pain to our CNN audience.
CHEN KEINAN, MOTHER OF BOMBING VICTIM: I have light wounds, but I don't want to waste our time talking about my physical condition because my heart is bleeding.
BLITZER: Chen Keinan and her husband, Lior, were at a mall outside Tel Aviv Monday evening. They were with their 15-month old baby daughter, Sinai (ph), and with Chen's mother. A Palestinian suicide bomber strolled through the mall. Some accounts say he paused outside an ice cream shop to watch children play, then set off his explosives. In an instant, Sinai (ph) and her grandmother were dead. Dozens of others were wounded, including Lior. Now, a young couple is left to grieve and to try to grasp why they were spared, and their loved ones were not.
KEINAN: My beloved mommy, she blocked the bomb. The terrorist was two meters from me, and she was the only thing between us, my mommy. I came out nearly without a scratch. She saved me, and I couldn't save my daughter, and I'm going to live with that for the rest of my life.
BLITZER: The experience of so many families who have lost loved ones in this conflict reflected in the faces of Chen and Lior, and in the pictures they showed. Lior Keinan composed himself long enough to make a plea.
LIOR KEINAN, FATHER OF BOMBING VICTIM: To help us bring to an end the horrible situation that we have here. And even though I know that Sinai (ph) won't be the last baby, and that next week we won't be in any interview, I know that I can only ask for your help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: A sad story.
Should the FBI director resign? A high-profile newspaper says yes. We'll tell you why.
The case of the stolen explosives. The ATF is on alert. Should you be?
And that dramatic videotape, an armed robbery at a California Kmart. We'll talk to the clerk who came to the rescue. That's all ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Now to some of out other top stories.
Amid reports al Qaeda terrorists might try to use shoulder-fired missiles to down U.S. airliners, there's word U.S. troops have found a cache of shoulder-fired missiles in Afghanistan. A senior Pentagon official says 30 missiles, Russian made SA-7s, were discovered in the Khowst-Gardez area.
The ATF is offering a $5,000 reward for help in finding a stolen cache of explosives. Officials say they were taken this month from a mining operation in Scott Bar, California near the Oregon border. Local and federal officials are investigating the theft.
John Torres is the special agent in charge of the San Francisco office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. He joins us now live from Sacramento. Give us the latest, Scott. Tell us what's going on.
JOHN TORRES, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS: Thanks, Wolf. ATF is actively investigating the theft. We have investigators down there today. We have got some viable leads and we are pursuing those leads.
BLITZER: How dangerous is this situation?
TORRES: Well, any time you are dealing with explosives, be it 700 pounds, 70 or seven, it is something we need to be concerned with. Since ATF has jurisdiction over explosives licensees and permitees, we are giving this the full attention of the federal government.
BLITZER: Does the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the agency you work for, John, does that ATF have any solid leads at this point involving the explosives?
TORRES: We have got some viable leads, and like I indicated earlier, we are pursuing the those leads, working closely with Sisque (ph) County Sheriff's office and the FBI, and we are pursuing those leads vigorously.
BLITZER: Is this a suspicious incident as far as terrorism might be concerned? In other words, a lot of our viewers are probably wondering, is it possible that terrorists could have gotten their hands on these explosives?
TORRES: One of the reasons we are putting out this reward is because as of right now, we have no motive and no good leads, thus reward of $5,000. We're asking for the public's help. And if they do have any leads that they can give to us, we are asking them to call 1- 888-ATF-BOMB. So that's the reason we are doing this today.
BLITZER: Could you repeat that number again, in case any of our viewers do have any information?
TORRES: Sure. 888-ATF-BOMB. Specifically for the viewers in northern California and Oregon.
BLITZER: How common is it for the ATF to issue -- to release this kind of reward?
TORRES: It is fairly common in our investigative techniques. For example, yesterday ATF in Georgia recovered 250 pounds of anfo (ph) working with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. So it's a common practice and a common technique that ATF uses.
BLITZER: OK, we're going to move on and talk about that. John Torres of the ATF, in San Francisco. Thanks for joining us.
TORRES: Thank you.
BLITZER: And good luck in your investigation. Let us know when you find it.
TORRES: Will do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Investigators in Georgia are breathing a sigh of relief after discovering 275 pounds of missing explosives. Acting on an anonymous tip, police found the sticks of explosives on the grounds of Fort Benning and blew them up. They say it was safer to detonate the explosives than to move them.
Local and federal officials are trying to find out who took the sticks from a paving company in Columbus, Georgia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Stories about missing explosives take on a very new and dangerous meaning in a post-September 11 world. Many are questioning how the country's intelligence agencies could have missed plans for the terror attacks. Some even say the man in charge of the FBI should step down in light of his agency's failure to supposedly connect the dots. Our Justice correspondent Kelli Arena now joins us live with some details -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Robert Mueller is facing his harshest criticism yet as FBI director. The "Wall Street Journal" is calling for his resignation. The "Journal" suggesting that Mueller "isn't willing or able to change the FBI culture." The "New York Times" called Mueller's blueprint for FBI reform "too timid to get the job done."
Now, criticism of the FBI has intensified since an agent in Minneapolis wrote Mueller a scathing letter accusing him of shading the truth in some of his public statements. So far no one in Congress has called for Mueller to step down, and the administration's support has been unwavering.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: This great injury from international terrorism was inflicted on the United States. He's grabbed the agency, he has begun to shift the culture. He's -- as we were talking earlier, he has established a reformation which will allow us to consolidate the terrorism information in Washington to see where these pieces fit together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARENA: Now Mueller will face more tough questions when he testifies at congressional hearings in the next few weeks. How he fairs will likely have a big impact on his credibility and perhaps, Wolf, his future. Back to you.
BLITZER: Kelli Arena, thanks so much for that report. And when does free speech come with a price? For one man, when he heckled a former president.
Also ahead, from N-Sync, to in space, the high-flying goals of pop star Lance Bass. First, today's news quiz.
Space tourist Mark Shuttleworth hoped to purchase what piece of space paraphernalia to keep as a souvenir of his trip?
A) His spacesuit B) His shuttle bunk bed C) The space capsule D) The shuttle treadmill
The answer coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Memorial Day proved to be a fateful one for a teenage clerk at a California Kmart. He is being called a hero for his reaction to a violent robbery at a store that could have had a much more tragic ending.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(voice-over): The surveillance camera takes it all in. As two masked robbers walk into the Kmart in Stockton and assault a store manager. Francisco Ferreyra (ph) is the clerk with his hands up near the counter. The robbers then hurry out as a woman and little girl walk in. Ferreyra follows them to see which way they are going. Then, watch. Shots ring out as a gunman fires back toward Ferreyra and the two bystanders. The woman runs for cover but the child is left standing. Ferreyra doesn't hesitate.
FRANCISCO FERREYRA, KMART CLERK: And I see her and I pick her up and, just, because, you know, bullets get lost. It can hit something and then shoot back in another direction.
BLITZER: How fast was his reaction? Watch it in real time. No one was seriously hurt, thanks to a 17-year-old clerk who put himself between a child and a gunman's bullets.
FERREYRA: It's a child, you know. She got a longer life than me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The robbers have not been caught. Police released that videotape hoping one of them might brag about the crime to someone who'd turn them in. Now let's talk to the man you just saw take that action in that store surveillance video. Francisco Ferreyra joins us now, live from Stockton, California. First of all, thanks for that excellent work, Francisco. What was going through your mind when those robbers came in to the Kmart?
FERREYRA: I was stunned. I couldn't believe it. I thought that only happened in movies.
BLITZER: And you saw that lady walk in with that little girl. Your instincts obviously were very, very powerful. Remind us, tell us what happened.
FERREYRA: From the beginning from when they walked in? You want me to tell you from there?
BLITZER: Yes, go ahead. Start from the beginning. FERREYRA: OK. They walk in, they're wearing two ski masks, all in black. Kind of adjusting their masks as they're walking in. And he says -- he approached to my clerk, to my store manager Barbara and tells her, "Surprise!" And he gets a little bit close to her and then he hits her with his left hand and his palm, and then he pulls out the gun.
When he pulls it out, I kind of just drop back, like I'm surprised. And Barbara just moves to the side, and Dawn, the lady who was at the cashier, she started giving the money in the bag before that guy jumps over the little (UNINTELLIGIBLE) cashier's (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And she started dumping off the money. The guy starts telling her, "Hurry up or I'm going to shoot you!" So she is kind of hurrying and hurrying.
She is giving the money and then she goes ahead and gives -- hands him the money and he jumps over, starts walking out the store, drops a couple bills, and then I walk over to the -- there's like 20s and some other bills, and I just start picking them up, and put them back into the cash register.
And I'm kind of wandering around for a couple seconds. Then I go outside to go see which way they are going, so I can tell the cop to give him a head start, sort of show them which way they're going. I start pointing towards Montezuma School. I try saying that they're heading towards the school and I start telling Barbara, that's talking to the police -- she is telling them where they are going, and then I look out again, and when I look out again, they fire a few rounds, and I ducked and then I covered, and then when I start walking back towards -- into the store a little more, my hand kind of brushes on to the little child. And then when I look, I just swooped her up, grabbed her, covered her with my body and kind of run around the counter and cover into the counter.
BLITZER: You must have been stunned when that little girl and that woman walked in, and the woman walked away, ran away -- her instincts, obviously, were to run away. But you saw that little child by herself -- what went through your mind as you grabbed her and clearly saved her?
FERREYRA: My sister. She kind of flashed through my mind. Kind of got scared, and she was a little baby, and I was just thinking, this could be my sister. I just picked her up. What was going through my head is just, "grab the girl, grab the girl, cover her, cover her. Protect her."
BLITZER: How many shots were fired, as far as you could tell?
FERREYRA: Three or four.
BLITZER: And did any of them -- where were they fired at? Towards -- what were they aiming at?
FERREYRA: I -- for some reason I think they were aiming at me. I was telling the cops which way they were heading, so maybe they thought -- I don't know what they were thinking. I just -- I was pointing towards Montezuma School and I was telling Barbara, and maybe they seen me when I was pointing towards them and fired a few rounds. That's probably why they shot.
BLITZER: You going to go back to work at that Kmart?
FERREYRA: Yes, I went back the next day.
BLITZER: And you went right back to work. Was that first time you ever had an incident, a robbery like that?
FERREYRA: Yes, first time.
BLITZER: Do you realize that a lot of people think you're a hero?
FERREYRA: Yes, a lot of people think so, but I don't.
BLITZER: Well, I do and I want to thank you, Francisco Ferreyra, thank you for joining us. Good work. Your instincts were powerful and you are good young man. Good luck to you in the future.
FERREYRA: Thank you.
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BLITZER: Moving on now. One of the members of the pop group N- Sync may soon be saying bye-bye-bye to earth. Lance Bass today announced he's passed a medical exam to travel to space aboard the Russian Soyuz rocket. Russians officials confirm he has been admitted to undergo special training. Bass is one of several candidates hoping to go up to space this fall.
You've heard of the deer stuck in the head lights. Look. Well, you can call this the deer stuck in a fence version. It took place and -- it took police and rescue teams almost two hours to free this animal in Pittsfield (ph), Massachusetts. Deliberation didn't last very long. The deer ran to another fence, and guess what? Got stuck again.
And this moose decided to take a stroll in Spokane, Washington. Startled residents watched as rescue crews from the Fish and Wildlife Department chased it for several hours before it was captured and released.
Still to come, a man, an outburst, and a former president. Find out why this heckler may end up an inmate.
Plus, why are these men whipping each other? The answer is that's spring is in the air. It's our picture of the day. It's coming up.
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Earlier we asked, what did space tourist Mark Shuttlesworth want to purchase to keep as a souvenir of his trip? Upon his return to earth, Shuttleworth said that although the Russian Soyuz capsule would have been the ultimate souvenir, he planned on buying the space suit he wore during the trip.
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BLITZER: Now, let's get your insight into our Web question of the day. Earlier we asked, who should foot the bill for rescues? Seventy-seven percent of you so far say the victims, 23 percent of you say the rescuers. Remember, this is not a scientific poll.
Let's get some of your reaction, your e-mail on the FBI. Nancy writes this: "Since the FBI is making changes to the way they do business, I think it is also time to change the name of the FBI building in Washington from the J. Edgar Hoover Building to something the Americans can be proud of."
And from Daniel: "I really appreciate your in-depth reporting on the Middle East crisis and the war on terrorism. During times like these, you need to have the accurate and quality reporting you get from WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Very nice. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we will talk to a heckler -- talk about a heckler a heckler, a heckler of a former president and the possibility that heckler may wind up in jail. We will explain. Stay with us.
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BLITZER: You're looking at some ominous pictures in the Miami, Florida area. Some storm clouds over Miami. We're told that there is a tornado warning in the Miami area. Look at those heavy clouds, the front moving in. Clearly pictures that could spell some problems for people in the south Florida area. Recommendation, of course, good time to stay indoors.
In our justice files, he yelled a cuss word at a former president and disrupted a speech three years ago. Now he could go to jail. Thomas Markovich was a student at Austin, Texas when he heckled the elder George Bush. He was arrested on a misdemeanor charge. It was dropped by a state judge but reinstated by an appeals court. This week, the state's highest criminal court ruled Markovich should stand trial.
Joining me now from Austin, Texas is the man who has pushed this case, the Travis County attorney, Ken Oden. Mr. Oden, thanks for joining us. What's the point in going forward with these charges?
KEN ODEN, TRAVIS CO. ATTORNEY: Well, the point is a first amendment principle. The charge here is not that he yelled a cuss word. Yelling "bullshit" at a politician in my town is not illegal or I'd probably have to arrest myself.
But the allegations here, and the facts asserted by the police that were present was that there was a plan that was executed by several people to keep yelling, so long and so loud. It included "bullshit" but many other things that the president, former president would not be allowed to speak, period.
BLITZER: So in other words you are saying there was a conspiracy going in to this to this event?
ODEN: The allegations are, and the high level of proof we would have to proceed on, is that the fact the statute that was the constitutionality of which was in question, requires that you actually show intent to disrupt the meeting in a way that the speaker could not be speaking and the audience couldn't hear it. The principle you inquired about is, in this town we have a very robust use of the first amendment.
I'm a democrat. I'm not known for being a shrinking violet at the use of off-color language or assertion of first amendment rights. But the first amendment right to speak has a corollary, and that is the first amendment right of the speaker to speak, the audience to hear.
You can heckle in this town, and you can anywhere in America. But most states have statutes like this one that was found to be constitutional, that searched the principle that if you want to yell so long and so loud, you can't hide behind the first amendment if what you intend to do is to keep someone else from asserting their own rights to speak.
BLITZER: So what you are saying was that he wasn't just yelling but he was disrupting the entire event. Is it the equivalence of shouting fire if a crowded theater?
ODEN: That's another good example of limitations on first amendment right to speak or to yell or, and I -- the allegations here is that one would yell long enough that when he was ejected the next person would stand up and yell long enough that he would have to be apprehended and ejected. And it was an apparent plan to do it long enough to actually stop the meeting from being able to be held.
BLITZER: Why are you simply going after Mr. Markovich as opposed to the others who were heckling and yelling in the event as well?
ODEN: One of them had already admitted his guilt and was put on a form of misdemeanor probation. A second one, the judge in his case, a separate judge, did not find the statute unconstitutional. So this was the only case that went up to our highest court to examine where that line ought to be between the citizens' right to heckle and the speaker's right to speak.
BLITZER: Will you call the former president to testify, if in fact this goes to trial?
ODEN: Well, I think the defense hopes that they would get that moment of glamour. I don't think it is necessary to make the case, but I will follow whatever the court says is necessary, and make our judgments then.
BLITZER: All right. I want to point out to our viewers, we did invite Thomas Markovich and his attorney to join us as well. Unfortunately, they declined our invitation. Ken Oden, thanks for accepting our invitation. Appreciate it very much.
Let's go to New York now and get a preview of LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE. That begins right at the top of the hour -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, HOST OF "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Wolf, thank you. Coming up next, the Bush administration urging 60,000 Americans to leave India immediately. We will be going live to the Pentagon and we'll have the latest about the tensions along the border of India and Pakistan. There are no signs of peace in the Middle East. Israeli tanks in fact have rolled into two Palestinian towns. I'll be talking about the unending cycle of violence with former Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
On Wall Street today a solid rally faded by the close. We will have our weekly panel. All of that and a lot more coming right up. Please join us. Now back to Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Lou, thank you very much. Have a wonderful weekend, and thanks for all the excellent work.
The filmmaker Woody Allen's lawsuit has gone to court. The actor/director is suing his former producer, saying she cheated him out of $12 million. Allen's lawyer says Allen did not receive his proper share of the profits for eight movies he's made since 1993. The producer's lawyer says the suit is bogus.
In our picture of the day, almost 20,000 people celebrated a spring festival in a southeastern Turkish village, whipping each other -- get this -- whipping each other in the name of friendship.
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The whipping game is a tradition in this part of Turkey's mainly Kurdish southeast.
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That's all the time we have today. I will see you Sunday on "LATE EDITION." The last word in Sunday talk. Among my guests, the attorney general John Ashcroft.
Until then, thanks very much for watching. Have a wonderful weekend. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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