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CNN Talkback Live

R. Kelly Indicted on Child Porn Charges; U.S. Cracks Down on Immigration Laws

Aired June 05, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello everybody. I'm Arthel Neville. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

We're awaiting a news conference in Chicago where we understand R&B superstar R. Kelly has been indicted on felony child pornography charges. The FBI says the widely distributed videotape showing R. Kelly engaged in various sex acts with a 14-year-old is the real thing, not a forgery as R. Kelly claims.

We'll be hearing from Chicago Police Superintendent Terry Hillard and State's Attorney Dick Devine in just a minute. And remember, the name of the show is TALKBACK LIVE, so I want to hear from you. Give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail talkback@cnn.com. Now here's what else we have for you today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(voice-over): Photographed, fingerprinted and followed. The U.S. cracks down on visitors from countries that harbor terrorists. Is it effective terror prevention or discrimination?

Also, the ACLU sues four major airlines for racial profiling in the aftermath of September 11.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My basic rights to travel free from discrimination has been grossly violated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't have a constitutional right not to be treated unfairly in this context because everybody's treated unfairly.

NEVILLE: Are rights being violated in the name of safety or is your safety being compromised in the name of freedom?

And the mysterious death of Paolo Ayala.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Housekeeper came up to my bedroom, said, sir, the little boy's at the bottom of the pool. And I went oh no. Oh no.

NEVILLE: Did the seven-year old drown at a friend's pool party? If so, how could his body go unnoticed for two days?

(END VIDEO CLIP) (on camera): OK, we'll get to those stories in a moment, but let's start with the child pornography charges against R. Kelly. He's been the target of a few lawsuits alleging sex with minors. Most have been settled out of court, but it's a widely distributed videotape, one that has made the rounds on the Internet and the street that got him into trouble this time.

The tape allegedly shows R. Kelly engaging in various sex acts with a 14-year old girl. The investigation has been underway for three years, and now lets get some details now from CNN Chicago bureau chief Jeff Flock.

And, Jeff, as we just said, with the help of the FBI, police have been investigating Kelly for three years now. What was the piece of the puzzle that enabled police to file charges?

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Arthel, we don't know for sure, but it certainly seems it was that videotape. What we do know for sure now based on a source inside the Chicago - or the Cook County states attorney's office is that, in fact, Mr. Kelly has been indicted. We are told 21 counts of child pornography, apparently connected with that videotape.

Now, we don't know if they're all felony counts, but any felony count would carry a penalty of up to 15 years, so we're talking serious stuff here. Just got off the phone with his attorney. They tell us that Mr. Kelly is not in Chicago, but that he will present himself here wherever and whenever the police ask him. They speculate that that will be as early as tomorrow here in Chicago. But at this point, Arthel, not yet in custody.

And one other thing that we've learned is that he has already hired a very high-profile Chicago defense attorney, a man that if you are in criminal trouble in Chicago, you'll want to have representing you, a man named Ed Genson. So he appears to be ready to face this head on - Arthel.

NEVILLE: And how soon could this go to trial?

FLOCK: Well, I don't know for sure, although that would probably be a ways down the road. One thing that we do know about this, as you've said, they have spent a lot of time investigating this. Apparently, the Cook County state's attorney was burned here in a case some years ago where they did not have the cooperation of the alleged victim in this and wound up having a defendant be acquitted.

So they've spent a lot of this. Now whether there is only one videotape or others, that's something else we don't know for sure. So I guess we'll see here. We're waiting on this press conference here inside police headquarters any minute.

NEVILLE: OK, Jeff, keep us updated, and we'll go back to you if necessary, OK?

FLOCK: OK, Arthel. NEVILLE: All right. Joining us now - right - joining us now is Jamie Foster Brown, publisher of "Sister 2 Sister" magazine, and looking beautiful as usual. Welcome, Jamie.

JAMIE FOSTER BROWN, PUBLISHER, "SISTER 2 SISTER" MAGAZINE: Thank you.

NEVILLE: Now is this something that was bound to catch up with R. Kelly?

BROWN: I think it was, you know. One of the things in talking to people around R. Kelly who more or less feel that this is not all his fault, I mean, but he's a grown man. He should know better, but they felt like that people around him should have said no to him at some point instead of taking care of all of these problems that he has had before with under age girls.

You know, that that was the case with Aaliyah, that supposedly he got married to Aaliyah when she was just 15-years old...

NEVILLE: Right. They got married August 31 of '94...

BROWN: Right.

NEVILLE: Then the marriage was dissolved in February 7, 1995.

BROWN: Right, and then you know the Tiffany Hawkins (ph) case, I think we -- "Sister 2 Sister" magazine dealt with that back in '95 or whenever that case was. But it's interesting that the parents and the child will not come forth against R. Kelly.

It was the aunt who recognized the girl in the tape and said that she was 14-years-old at that time. And so that can be - that's why I think they went very slowly and very carefully on this case because they haven't had the cooperation of the family.

NEVILLE: And help us understand, though, why is that, because as with the past case before, a man was acquitted because the victim wouldn't speak out.

BROWN: Yes and I think that that case - well sometimes they get paid for not speaking out. A lot of times and in talking to the men in the industry, Dr. Dre, not Dr. Dre, but Jermaine Dupree, Luther Campbell, Snoop Doggy Dogg, those men also feel like they are the prey because young girls are brought to them. They're made to dress up, look older and even their mothers are saying my daughter is 18, 19- years-old and all of this is for money, and for know...

NEVILLE: So, Jamie, let me jump in there and ask you then in the case of R. Kelly, that's what we're talking about here, is there any way possible that this girl was presented to him as an 18-year-old woman?

BROWN: No, I don't think so. This was his -- as I understand, she's his godchild. That's what I've been told.

NEVILLE: Excuse me.

BROWN: So I - she - I understand she's his godchild.

NEVILLE: Excuse me.

BROWN: Yes. Yes, that's what - that's what I was told. That's how she was there. She was brought in by her aunt, who is a singer, who used to sing with R. Kelly, and the girl was brought in to actually do a rap on her song, and I think she was around 12 years old at that time. As you know, I have seen the tape, and I was very despondent. I saw it like Valentine's Day and I was just very despondent after I saw that because it was quite obvious to me that this girl was not 18, 19 years old.

NEVILLE: And was it obvious to you that it was R. Kelly in the videotape?

BROWN: Oh, yes.

NEVILLE: Because when he was on Ed Gordon's show on BET, R. Kelly said that wasn't me in the tape. People are lying. You know, these days movie studios can make people...

BROWN: Right.

NEVILLE: ... appear to be in images when they're not.

BROWN: That's -- yes, but that's not - I think the FBI has proven - they've proven that it is R. Kelly, and then you know, he is adjusting the tape, and he is looking at it, and making sure that the angles are correct, so you see him - you kind of hear his voice also.

NEVILLE: Jamie, right now, I'd like to run a clip from Ed Gordon's interview with R. Kelly. Let's take a listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

R. KELLY, MUSICIAN: I've done a lot of wrong things in my life, but I am not a criminal. I'm not a monster that people - that people are saying I am, and if people out there have a tape of me, and they're saying it's me and a young girl, a minor, then they're sadly mistaken or they're lying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: Wow. Now I wonder if that interview at all - I don't - I don't have this confirmed at all, Jamie, but I'm just wondering right now, in fact, Tom is in the audience here, was wondering if, in fact, that interview or portions of that interview could be used in court. I mean definitely this case is going to have many, many, many eyes on it.

Let's go back to this girl because you know the players involved. You've talked to everybody. and I still don't understand, is it a situation of embarrassment maybe, why the girl and the parents may not want to come forth? BROWN: Well, you know, the father of the girl played in R. Kelly's band, and so there's also some loyalty there. I don't - I don't understand. I mean parents, first of all, I was told by the auntie (ph) that the parents were not aware that it was happening. Other people I've talked to, who were around R. Kelly use to wonder why is this child in the gym at, you know, 11:00, 12:00 at night because R. Kelly plays basketball a lot...

NEVILLE: Right.

BROWN: ... was that why isn't she in school? Why is she being brought around this man?

NEVILLE: You know, but that makes me sick, Jamie, to think, and I know this happens, not just with R. Kelly, but in other situations, as you said earlier, that you have people actually pimping their children.

BROWN: They pimp their children and that's what Luther Campbell was telling me, that he was - the mother of a 16-year old girl was brought to him and he started living with the girl, had two children with that girl, and a friend of his worked at the high school where the girl attended high school and told him do you understand that this girl is in high school? But that was not how the parents represented her.

NEVILLE: And than at the same time, though, the flip side of that coin when they realize that these people are underage - I mean they have - they should have the responsibility as an adult and the wherewithal to say, you know what, this is it, I'm out of here...

BROWN: You know what ...

NEVILLE: ... not to continue this.

BROWN: ... what happens here is that, you know, this feeling of being invincible, the record labels and managers, whatever, they take care of problems that a lot of the artists get into. So you know, your problems are always taken care of or I'm not just saying the record labels, not all of them do this, but your problems are always taken care of, you're - you know you pay out the money, you say I'm going to give the girl a record deal if she doesn't say anything...

NEVILLE: Right.

BROWN: ... or I'm going to give the parents money and stuff. So you can feel this absolute power as an artist, you know that ...

NEVILLE: And then they - and some of them think they are invincible.

BROWN: They do think they're invincible, and I'm sure R. Kelly is like shocked that this is even happening to him. And as some of his people who are protecting him, are saying that he should have been told long time ago or there should have been some -- no, you can't deal with this. This cannot be done, that people around him, his handlers, should have had some responsibly in this suit too.

NEVILLE: I mean every - you're right Jaime, everybody and I just want to remind our audience that we're expecting a news conference out of Chicago with the police chief Terry Hillard, as well as state's attorney Dick Devine.

And I have a young man and, of course, when that - when they get to the podium, we'll take that live. In the meantime, I have Andre (ph) here. Andre, how old are you?

ANDRE: Thirteen.

NEVILLE: Thirteen, do you -- have you listened to R. Kelly music?

ANDRE: Yes.

NEVILLE: And you obviously know who he is. What do you think about all of this? Now my view, we're not - he has not been convicted.

ANDRE: Well, I think that he should be placed in jail for child pornography, and I don't think that it's right at all for an older man to have sex with a younger person, and I don't think that he should have had himself in a predicament like the one he did.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much.

OK. And Dean (ph) is on the line right now from Florida, right Dean?

DEAN: Yes, in fact, I appreciate the comments from that young man. I think he does belong in jail, R. Kelly. I think he's had a continuous pattern of abuse. I think it's been made the point of the fact that he has paid off the people that have accused him and I think it's a system that's been set up to where it only protects those that are in favor, those that are in power and prominent. I'm getting deja vus with the Catholic priests that actually...

NEVILLE: OK, Dean, I'm going to have to cut you off, excuse me, because we're going to Chicago now for that press conference that I promised I'd bring to you. Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

TERRY HILLARD, CHICAGO POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: OK, everybody ready? Good afternoon. Joining me today is Cook County State's Attorney Dick Devine; Harvey Radney (ph), deputy superintendent for the Bureau of Investigative Services, Chicago Police Department; Phil Kline (ph), chief of detectives, Chicago Police Department; Lieutenant Robert Hargeshimer (ph), commanding officer of the special victims unit, Chicago Police Department.

And we're here today to announce the indictment of Chicago-based singer Robert Kelly. State's Attorney Devine will step up here briefly to discuss those specific charges in a very brief moment. What I'd like to do is provide you a brief overview of this case. Back in February, "The Chicago Sun-Times" contacted the Chicago police department to tell us of a tape it received that features R. Kelly performing sex acts with a minor.

"The Sun-Times" provided a copy of the tape to us. The Chicago police department immediately launched an investigation to determine who was on the tape, and whether criminal activity was present. And our investigation has been thorough, it's been objective, and it's been very professional.

And where we needed assistance, we asked for it. The FBI forensic experts from Quantico have closely examined the tape. They tell us it's authentic and other experts have positively identified both Mr. Kelly and a young female as participants in this act - in these acts.

And we shared our findings with the state attorney's office, which today brought this indictment down. And you know, it's fortunate to see Mr. Kelly's talents go to waste, but we come to tragedy when behavior damages the community.

Make no mistake, these are very harmful crimes. The nature of these indictments returned today should also serve to make parents more vigilant, and these acts are serious crimes that involve harmful acts, which damage and degrade our children while diminishing the integrity of our entire community.

Everyone must be held accountable for their own personal conduct. And that should be the message everyone takes from today's news. Criminal conduct, no matter whose involved, cannot and will not be tolerated here in the city of Chicago. The fact that he is a celebrity is of no importance to us. The fact that children and communities have been harmed as a result of his actions is very and extremely important to us. Decency and the law demand this indictment today.

And, finally, I should also point out that anyone who is selling this tape, as well as anyone who has purchased it, is now in possession of child pornography. It would be my advice to you to dispose of these tapes.

Now I'd like to hand it over to Cook County State's Attorney Dick Devine to talk about the indictments.

RICHARD DEVINE, COOK COUNTY STATE'S ATTORNEY: Thank you Superintendent. Good afternoon.

Today, Robert Kelly, commonly known as rap artist R. Kelly, was charged with 21 counts of child pornography. If convicted of these class one felonies, he can face up to 15 years in prison. I want to thank Mark Cavens (ph) and Meg Sullivan (ph) of our sex crime unit, for the diligent work that they did in putting this case together, Superintendent Hillard, Chief of Detectives Phil Kline, Harvey Radley, and Lieutenant Bob Hargeshimer of the Chicago Police Department for the long hours they spent on this difficult investigation. The indictment returned by a Cook County grand jury this morning charges that R. Kelly videotaped various sex acts with a minor girl, some time between November 1997 and this past February. The indictment charges that Kelly, 35 years of age, knew or should have known that the girl was born in September of 1984, and therefore was a minor at the time of the sex acts.

Kelly is charged with seven counts of videotaping the sex acts, seven counts of producing the video, and seven counts of soliciting or enticing the girl into having these elicit acts. We charge that the acts took place in Kelly's home in the 1000 block of West George Street in Chicago. These indictments hopefully will send a message to sexual predators that taking advantage of minors will not be tolerated and that there are severe penalties.

As in all cases, this defendant is presumed innocent until convicted by evidence, which establish his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Thank you.

NEVILLE: State's Attorney...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning, I'm ...

NEVILLE: State's Attorney Dick Devine, as well as Chicago Superintendent Terry Hillard. Again R. Kelly has been charged with 21 counts of child pornography. He could face up to 15 years in prison, if convicted. He is not yet in police custody and in fact, Kelly's attorney says that he's not in Chicago. However, he will cooperate with police.

And Jamie Foster Brown, you've been listening to that news conference as well. Do you think that this will send a wake-up call for any - to any artist who think he or she is invincible?

BROWN: Oh, I think so. I think that -- you know, I counsel a lot of the men who start - a lot of the young guys who started in the business when I get a chance to talk to them, and I usually get them when they're first coming out, that you're no longer the predator. You're the prey, meaning the girls come after you. They dress up, whatever, but you've got to stop and think, why is she there? What does she want? What are the consequences...

NEVILLE: Exactly, what are the consequences.

BROWN: Right.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

BROWN: And they don't teach men that. Men don't get that. They get this whole thing like you got to get as much as you can, when you can and now when you become a singer you can get all the sex in the land and there's no discretion there. If it's there, I'm going to get it. It's very, very difficult. And, I mean, it was the same thing with Tupac and so many other artists in the -- male artists in the business. You can't - it's not just there for you to have anymore. You're going to have to stop and think. NEVILLE: Absolutely. You know and I have two parents here, Rick (ph) and Natalie (ph), from Ohio. What are your thoughts on all of this?

NATALIE: I think it's pretty sad. He should be a role model. His music doesn't always speak to what I'd like my child to hear, but there are certain songs that he sang that...

NEVILLE: "I Believe I Can Fly".

NATALIE: Yes. And...

NEVILLE: Rick, what do you think?

RICK: Well I think for a guy like R. Kelly, I mean I liked his music. I still like his music, and a lot of his music - I mean some of it is inspirational. I think he let a lot of young people down, let - I think he let his audience down, you know, by you know, making this tape. I mean, how can you not say it's me when it's right there in front of you. I mean, nobody is going to take that much time and money to doctor up a tape to bring him down.

NEVILLE: Excuse me, thank you very much. And, Jamie, before I let you go, here's the final question for you. Of course he has not been convicted, but has...

BROWN: Right.

NEVILLE: ... been charged. What happens to his music career? Is it over?

BROWN: Well, it's kind of, you know -- that's hard to say because I don't know. People are funny, you know. They - he -- it may soar. Right now, it's not doing well. I mean you've got Dr. Dre saying that, you know, other people don't want to deal with him - the artists don't want to deal with him. Dr. Dre is saying that, you know, when it comes to children, I draw the line.

You have other artists saying that we're not molesters up here, and making records and all of this. So the sales didn't do as well as they had expected them to be.

And I wanted to address this thing about being a role model and I appreciate the parents saying that. But most artists do not want to take the responsibility of being a role model. This is something that I argue with them all of the time, and I'm saying like, if you wear sunglasses millions of kids wear sunglasses. You decide to wear shoelaces...

NEVILLE: Everybody else is copying...

(CROSSTALK)

Everybody else is copying, absolutely.

BROWN: ... but yet you don't want the responsibility where you and I, Arthel, or the construction worker or the telephone operator, all of us have to be role models in our own community.

NEVILLE: And you are. Jamie Foster Brown, thank you very much for joining me here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

BROWN: Thanks for having me.

NEVILLE: OK. Up next, the Justice Department plans - he announces a plan -- John Ashcroft announces a plan to keep better tabs on some people coming into the country. Are you worried about discrimination? We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Today I am announcing the national security entry-exit registration system. This system will expand substantially America's scrutiny of those foreign visitors who may pose a national security concern and enter our country. And it will provide ...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: OK. Less than an hour ago, Attorney General John Ashcroft announced plans to step up surveillance of certain foreign visitors to the United States. From now on, visa holders from countries considered terrorist friendly will get special attention -- fingerprints, photographs, and tracking while they remain in the U.S. Until today, only residents of Iran, Iraq, Libya and Sudan were required to go though the process.

Well now, other countries have been added to the list. The Justice Department says it will mainly target young men rather than older people and women. Here to talk about the new regulations are Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American Islamic Relations and Louis Palumbo, a veteran security expert and director of the Elite Group.

Welcome gentlemen. Mr. Hooper, I'll begin with you. Is this idea good, bad, and if so, whichever way you feel, could it be effective?

IBRAHIM HOOPER, COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS: Well, obviously, we believe it's discriminatory in that it singles out a particular religion and ethnicity for special scrutiny. We're all concerned about security, and we all want to see any possible terrorist attack prevented, but I don't think we want to throw out American values to accomplish that.

If this was scrutiny for everyone coming into the country, fine, let's do everyone. But when you profile and you single out a particular religion or ethnicity, we believe this is wrong and it's counter productive because it creates resentment even amongst the allies in the war on terrorism that America has worldwide.

NEVILLE: Then let me ask you this, how do you get around the fact that the hijackers were all men from the Middle East?

HOOPER: Well, you can make a case for profiling in many - in many ways. The vast majority of those who bring cocaine on airplanes are Latin Americans. Should we profile all Latin Americans? You can make a case for profiling of any religion or ethnicity but I don't think that's what we want to do, and we find that this profiling creates a false sense of security.

All of these policies, the so-called voluntary interviews of legal visa holders, the targeting of Muslim and Arab absconders, the use of secret evidence, the detention of more than 1200 Muslims and Arabs, none of them these policies have resulted in any arrest on a terrorism related charge.

NEVILLE: Mr. Palumbo, how do you see it?

LOUIS PALUMBO, ELITE GROUP: Well my feeling on this topic is that the government does not have an agenda that's designed or implemented to discriminate. I think the purpose of this plan is to elevate the security of this nation, number one, and I think that should be a priority. If anyone's going to ask me are they going to be inconvenienced or do you risk the possibility of loss of rights in a very, very minimal amount, yes the possibility exists.

I do agree with this gentleman, I would like to see them expand this plan that would include anyone entering this country. I think we need a stricter accountability for everyone entering this country today.

NEVILLE: I've got Nancy (ph) here in the audience who is agreeing. What do - what do you say, Nancy?

NANCY: Oh, I feel that if I were to go to another country, I don't have a problem with that. I have no problem with them checking my background. I know as when I was employed here in the United States, I had to give fingerprints, background check. I have no problem for that.

NEVILLE: And you feel that it would not be.

And, of course, Mr. Ibrahim, that takes away the whole discrimination aspect of it if everybody -- if it is good for everybody.

HOOPER: Yes, do it for everyone. Make it an equal-opportunity fingerprinting, and we are fine with it.

As we said, when you take certain jobs, you are fingerprinted. You have background checks, all these things. But when you take a job, you don't fingerprint or do a background check just on people of a certain race or ethnicity or religion.

NEVILLE: Mattie (ph) from California?

MATTIE: Yes, something should have been done probably 20, 30 years ago. And it's a good start to start with a few countries and expand to as many countries as possible.

NEVILLE: Do you care if it comes across as discriminatory?

MATTIE: It's not. I come from a country where it is necessary and it is being done.

NEVILLE: What country is that, sir?

MATTIE: Israel.

NEVILLE: Thank you for speaking out.

HOOPER: Can I mention also that, in the news conference today, the attorney general didn't say what countries we're talking about. So, it is now a crime to not register and get fingerprinted if you are from designated countries, but they are not even telling you what the designated countries are.

NEVILLE: Yes, he did mention it. I'm actually trying to get that information for you. I actually read and I can't recall it at the moment. But I am going to try to get it for you.

In the meantime, is there any possible way that this could all backfire?

HOOPER: Well, it creates tremendous resentment.

Look at what's happened with Iran. When they have tried to warm relations, when Iran has reached out, when America has reached out, you have exchange programs where scientists come in, soccer teams come in. And what's the first thing that happened? They pull them aside and start fingerprinting them like criminals. Half the time, they get back on the plane and go home and give a bad report about how they were treated in America.

NEVILLE: It is indeed too bad that the good have to suffer for the bad, as the saying goes. But, at the same time, a lot of other innocent people suffered in a very deadly way.

Josh from Idaho, what do you have to say?

JOSH: I don't think that it's taking away from the American citizens, because the people that are being checked aren't even American citizens. And so they are protecting the American citizens from possible terrorist countries that might blow something up, or something.

NEVILLE: Thank you.

And, by the way, some of those -- thanks, Josh.

Some of those countries we were talking about, let's see, North Korea, I think, Libya, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, just to name a few -- Syria. Those are some of the other countries that specifically named, Mr. Hooper.

HOOPER: Yes, they always throw in North Korea there so no one can say it is only Muslim and Arabs.

PALUMBO: Arthel, I think, in listening to this gentleman's comments and his critique on what the attorney general spoke about, I really think we are missing the focus of what we are trying to accomplish.

We're not trying to offend anyone. We're not trying to inconvenience anyone. I think, if you want to use rhetoric and throw words around like profile, clearly you can do that. I think we need to recognize what exactly the agenda is today. And the agenda, first and foremost -- and we should all support this...

NEVILLE: Is safety.

PALUMBO: ... is the safety and the security of this nation.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: I agree. I agree with you. Absolutely.

I've got to go to break.

But guess what? Whether or not they put these people on a list or not, or make it official from the government, profiling happens, whether or not you like it. You know what I mean? It happens.

So, anyway, we are going to talk about the U.S. airlines being sued -- up next.

Thanks, teleprompter operator.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: OK, everybody. Welcome back.

Remember what it was like to fly immediately after September 11? People were nervous and suspicious. And many wouldn't fly with passengers who made them uncomfortable. Well, five passengers who were kept off flights during this period have filed suits against four major U.S. airlines. The airlines are accused of racial profiling and discrimination.

The ACLU has taken the case. The four airlines involved in the suits say they don't discriminate. And they refused to discuss security measures, although they did say it is the captains who have the final say on whether a passenger should be ejected.

Mr. Palumbo, I'll start with you on this one. Is this good policing or profiling?

PALUMBO: Well, the first thing I want to say to you is that people have to realize the prerogative that an airline captain has. And, simply stated, he has the legal right to deny a federal agent access to his plane or his aircraft with a firearm. He is, in theory, the highest-ranking law enforcement official on an aircraft, No. 1.

But I do want to just say something that is kind of a blanket statement. I listen to a lot of people discuss displeasure with profiling and with fingerprinting and photographing. I'm not really listening to anyone say that they emphasize with the citizens of this country or this government that has a very, very difficult task ahead. We seem to be concerned about people coming to our country who are not citizens here and not concerned about the people who live here or their safety.

HOOPER: No, we are not talking about people who aren't citizens. We are talking about -- and our organization receives these cases on almost a weekly basis -- we are talking about citizens, residents, people who were born here.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: But you were also talking about -- the last segment, though, you were also talking about people who are visiting, that you had a problem with them...

HOOPER: No, in these particular profiling cases, I think they were either citizens or legal residents, green card holders. And they went through multiple security checks prior to getting on the plane. They were singled out and profiled, went through the checks, passed. They were OK.

NEVILLE: OK, let me just...

HOOPER: They sat down. And then a passenger or a flight attendant, whoever, said, "I don't like your looks."

NEVILLE: Got nervous.

You know, again, I don't agree that innocent people should suffer the consequences for what some other people did, bad people did. But you can't blame people at that point, especially after September 11. I mean, you can't blame people, the flight attendants, the pilots, passengers, for being nervous. And, unfortunately, yes, they probably were looking at people who looked as if they were from the Middle East, because that's what the hijackers looked like.

So, that's a fact. It is an unfortunate fact. And that's the environment we live in today. And then how, because of that environment, how can these airlines win? I mean, they risk the unfortunate -- it's unfortunate. If something like that happens again, God forbid, they risk a bad reputation because they didn't do anything about it if something -- you see what I mean?

HOOPER: But look at the case of John Walker. Look at Richard Reid, neither Arab or apparently Muslim. Their names weren't Muslim. Myself, no one is going to profile me going on a plane because I don't look like a typical so-called Muslim or Middle Easterner or whatever.

Are you going have a religious question, so African-Americans, who make up a big chunk of our community, are you going to say, "Are you Muslim? Are you Christian? OK, you are Muslim. Come with us"? I mean, these things, we don't really plumb the depths of what it means.

NEVILLE: Ibrahim, how did you feel after September 11?

HOOPER: I was near ground zero in Washington. I was only a few blocks from the Congress as they were saying the last plane might be headed towards Congress.

So, I mean, we live here. We're Americans. We have families. We go to school. We go to mosque. We all want security. But that doesn't mean you throw out all your civil liberties to gain security.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: You're right. And you know what? Those hijackers used those civil liberties to kill a lot of Americans.

Alex from Florida.

PALUMBO: The one thing I would like to say to you is that I hear a lot of criticism on the steps that the United States government is taking or is implementing in order to elevate the security of this nation. I don't hear anybody offering me a solution other than the one that the government is offering. In other words...

HOOPER: I can give you some solutions.

PALUMBO: Sir, let me finish what I'm saying, please, sir.

HOOPER: Well, you asked for solutions.

PALUMBO: It is quite a luxury to sit back and critique after the government has come out with a policy. I think if everybody is really concerned about addressing this problem, everybody should pool their resources and make some suggestions on how you think we are going to tighten the security of this nation.

NEVILLE: OK, I will take a break here.

I want to thank my guests. Ibrahim Hooper and Mr. Louis Palumbo, thank you very much for joining me here today.

And later this hour: A child's body is found at the bottom of a pool. Was it there for two days? And, if it were there, how did searchers overlook it?

We'll be right back after the news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: OK, welcome back, everybody.

Police in Los Angeles now say the death of a 7-year-old boy found in a pool could have been an accident. Paolo Ayala had been missing for two days before his body was discovered at the bottom of a friend's swimming pool. Police originally suggested the boy might have been the victim of foul play.

CNN national correspondent Frank Buckley has been following this story -- Frank.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, we are expecting a news conference in a couple of hours from the Los Angeles Police Department and the coroner's office.

They expect to release the cause of death in the death of Paolo Ayala, the 7-year-old boy who came to this home on Sunday afternoon for a birthday party. They haven't told us yet what the cause of death is, but they do say they have sufficient evidence to determine a cause of death. So, they will release that information at this news conference in a couple of hours.

Now, the story here is that this boy came to this house on Sunday afternoon for a birthday party. He was dropped off by his parents. They left. When they came back, the boy was missing. A massive search was initiated in this neighborhood. And for two days, the search took place. This home was used as the command post for that search. And this pool was searched.

Now, look inside right now. The officers say that they looked inside this pool, that there were dozens, if not hundreds of people who went by this pool, either the people who were at the party, police officers, paramedics, other officials who looked inside this pool. They didn't see a body.

And you can see right now that this is sort of a standard pool in Southern California. It is about 8 feet deep at the deepest point. You can see right down to the bottom right now. You see the objects in the pool. You can see the drain down there. But, apparently, at the time of the party, according to the owner of this home, Saeed Farkhondehpour, he says that in fact the bottom of the pool was murky, that you really couldn't see to the bottom of the pool then or even into Monday.

We talked to him earlier today. Here is what Saeed had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAEED FARKHONDEHPOUR, HOMEOWNER: Even yesterday morning, when we found the body, you could see that part of it clear, but the deep part was not still clear. It still wasn't clear.

BUCKLEY: So, in your view, it is possible that the body could have been hidden from view?

FARKHONDEHPOUR: At this point I'm positive that's the case, that it was hidden. It was just sitting there the whole time. Just everybody missed it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY: It just seems remarkable that that could be the case. In fact, police thought initially -- they were very clear in telling us yesterday that, look, this body had to be placed here, because there were so many people here. They struck the command post at 10:00 Monday night and moved to another location. The body was found Tuesday morning.

They were sure that this body had to be placed here overnight on Monday night. Then, just a few hours later at another news conference, they came out and said to us: "Well, you know what? We are keeping our options open at this point." And now the body is with the coroner's office, and we are expecting to find out the exact cause of death -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: Frank Buckley, thank you very much for that report.

And thanks to everybody at home for watching.

I'm Arthel Neville. And I'll see you again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern for more TALKBACK LIVE.

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