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CNN Live Today

Interview With David Kaplan

Aired June 10, 2002 - 14:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: News that this was an American citizen involved in this plot may surprise many people. But not our next guest, I'm sure. He is the author of "Made in the USA," a "U.S. News and World Report" cover story on Americans who consider themselves jihadists, self-proclaimed holy warriors.

David Kaplan is with us today from Washington.

David, good to see you again. Welcome.

DAVID KAPLAN, "U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT": Thank you very much.

HARRIS: I'm guessing that you wouldn't be surprised by the news today. Were you?

KAPLAN: Well, no. We just finished a month's long investigation where we tracked several dozen American jihadists overseas. We found that there is a 20-year secret history of these people going abroad, not just to Afghanistan, but to Bosnia, to Kashmir, to Chechnya, to fight in foreign wars.

HARRIS: Did you come across Jose Padilla's name anywhere?

KAPLAN: We didn't. But it was extraordinary how diverse it was. You had a lot of Arab-Americans. You had African-Americans. You had people like John Walker Lindh. There's a Puerto Rican guy, Hairum Torez (ph), who disappeared, whose name was found in a Kashmir militia safe house in Afghanistan.

And you have to remember, at Guantanamo Bay, in U.S. custody, there are people from 33 different countries right now. And we know that in addition to Australia and Belgium and Sweden and Germany, there were a number of Americans who have been involved in this struggle.

HARRIS: You know, we were just watching the press briefing at the White House just moments ago. One of the reporters was asking Ari Fleischer about the one or two Americans that may have been fighting against the United States.

But I'm guessing by what you're saying and what I saw in your report, that you're talking about there possibly being thousands of jihadists, if you will, who happen to be Americans or U.S. citizens? KAPLAN: What you're talking about is an estimate by a former top FBI counterterrorism official who worked on this issue for years. His best estimate, after working on these guys in the '90s, was that there were between 1,000 and 2,000 people from America who left to fight in these jihadist wars.

Now, remember, they're not all anti-Americans. Some of these people went to fight ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. Some went to fight against Russian activities in Chechnya and in Afghanistan in the '80s. But the problem is that the movement got more and more fanatical and more and more anti-American in the 1990s.

And the people who end up going in the early and mid '90s and late '90s, these people got pretty radical. And counterterrorism officials believe that there are more Americans who were involved.

HARRIS: Well, can you give us a thumbnail sketch of what the pipeline system actually works like? As I understand it, it seems to be like, from some of the reports that we've seen so far, many of these people get recruited in prisons, don't they?

KAPLAN: Prisons are one place. Again, it's remarkably diverse. There are radical mosques and Islamic centers where people get recruited. People get recruited over the Internet.

I just spent two months looking at these radical Web pages, and thank god that story is over. Because these are -- the propaganda is very intense. There's image after image of bloody, broken corpses. You keep looking at this stuff, after a while you do believe the world is trying to annihilate the Muslim communities everywhere.

HARRIS: Yes, well, if you only get one side of the story, that's likely to happen. Let me ask, is there any sort of common denominator between them all?

KAPLAN: Well, these are true believers. And sociologists told us, as in past fanatical movements, you have people who just have sheer tunnel vision. And they're absolutely convinced that this is the way. They're religiously inspired.

And many of them are on selfless journeys. They think they're fighting a holy war. And you're not going to convince them otherwise. So, it's real dangerous stuff.

HARRIS: Interesting. Absolutely fascinating. And your timing for this article is absolutely perfect, as it turns out. You couldn't have planned any better publicity.

KAPLAN: We didn't plan it.

HARRIS: David Kaplan, thank you very much. A fascinating read. I encourage people to get out and pick up that "U.S. News and World Report." Take care, David.

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