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CNN Live Today

Interview With Victoria Toensing

Aired June 11, 2002 - 12:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush is calling alleged dirty bomb suspect Abdullah al Muhajir a bad guy and one of many would-be killers in custody as part of the war against terrorism. Al Muhajir is being held in a South Carolina brig as an enemy combatant. The defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, says he may never be brought to trial. Rumsfeld says -- quote -- "Our interest is in finding out what he knows."

Joining us now to talk more about the arrest and some of the measures being taken in the name of national security: Victoria Toensing. She's a former official of the Justice Department.

Victoria, good to see you.

VICTORIA TOENSING, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Good to be here.

PHILLIPS: Two things to point out. First of all, enemy combatant, let's define exactly what that means.

TOENSING: Well, we're not real sure what that means. And, as a matter of fact, that's where we are having the problem: to figure out how to decide who exactly is an enemy combatant.

Here we all know the criminal laws. And lots of very liberal civil-rights-acclimated lawyers are trying to say we should apply the criminal laws to these situations. We can't do that. And the reason is -- your quote just from Rumsfeld -- is that we have to prevent the next attack rather than to focus on punishment, which is what our criminal laws are made for.

But, low and behold, we can't use the old rules of war because, in the wars of yesteryear, we knew who the combatants were. They wore military uniforms. We knew where the combat zone was. And we knew when the war was over. There was a surrender and one side declared victory. Today, we don't know that because the combat zone is all around us. It's the civilians that the radical Islamic people have said that they want to kill, all of us.

So, it is a real new paradigm that we are going to have to adjust to and how to figure out how to prevent these attacks and, at the same time, balance people's rights, so that the government does not abuse them. PHILLIPS: And, also, looking at the John Walker Lindh case, obviously, and focusing on this prevention trumping punishment, as you pointed out -- and Rumsfeld has made that point -- if al Muhajir was taken into our civil court system, then he could take the Fifth. And we may not find out anything in his involvement in these plots to kill Americans, right?

TOENSING: Well, you know, I'm so glad John Walker Lindh was put into our federal court system, because it is an example so people can see in reality what it is that is the problem.

John Walker Lindh of course has a Fifth Amendment right. He is in our federal criminal court system. So, he doesn't have to talk to anyone. But guess what his attorneys are doing? They have demanded -- and the court is helping them and supporting these defense attorneys -- to say that John Walker Lindh, not only does he not have to talk, but they are forcing government witnesses, our CIA officials, to talk to John Walker Lindh's lawyers.

And, if certain information is not provided, the judge has threatened to dismiss the case and let John Walker Lindh free. So, it is a good example and a reminder to us how the old rules don't work and we have to find some new ones.

PHILLIPS: Victoria Toensing, unfortunately, we have to leave it there. We're short on time. But I know we will be talking again very soon. This will not go away.

Victoria, thank you.

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