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American Morning

Interview with Ted Conover

Aired June 12, 2002 - 07:11   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now, a look at the enemies within. Are U.S. prisons a breeding ground for terrorist groups seeking American operatives? Well, officials now believe that dirty bomb suspect, Abdullah al Muhajir, a U.S. citizen, converted to Islam while in prison, as did the alleged shoe bomber, Richard Reid. Has the hatred of America become an effective recruiting tool behind bars?

Ted Conover spent ten months as a corrections officer at New York's Sing Sing Prison, while he was researching for his new book, "Newjack," and he joins us now -- good morning -- welcome.

TED CONOVER, AUTHOR, "NEWJACK: GUARDING SING SING": Good morning, Paula -- thank you.

ZAHN: Is it true that you spoke with a prison guard, who told you on the day of the September 11 attacks, prisoners clapped?

CONOVER: This was actually at a jail up in Boston, and the sheriff told me there was one housing unit, where when the news was broadcast, yes, there was applause. And it's an upsetting thing to hear when you are an American. And I don't think it's typical. There were -- I have only heard a couple of things like that, but it does point to a deep-seated sense of grievance among many inmates of American prisons.

ZAHN: But you don't think that grievance is widespread?

CONOVER: Well, I am sure the grievance is widespread. You just have to visit a maximum security American prison to feel the anger, the seething resentment on the part of a lot of inmates, especially those of color that this confinement is somehow not just, that they shouldn't be here, that the cards are stacked against them. And a lot of times I think people with a lot of time on their hands get involved in less than ideal organizations, including some religious groups that, you know, might help foster this sense of resentment and help it grow.

ZAHN: Talk about that for a moment. Because how fertile do you think American prisons are for converting people to Islam, for example, among other religions, and turning that to a brand of radical politics?

CONOVER: Yes. My experience at Sing Sing was that Islam is the number one prison religion these days. Well, I guess it's the fastest growing religion in Europe and in lots of the United States. I think in most cases that's really a positive thing. You can ask any officer, and they'll tell you that inmates who are involved in religion have more discipline in their lives, they cause you less trouble. You know, they have got something they are working for.

I think in a very small number of cases, there are stripes of Islam that are violent, are very -- are revolutionary, and if prison officials aren't watching carefully, that kind of thing can happen in prison.

ZAHN: How carefully do you think prison guards are watching this kind of activity in prisons across America? And is it something that the FBI should be paying more attention to?

CONOVER: It's funny. It's kind of like 9/11. Until it happened, people weren't even thinking along those lines. And I think the same will be true in prisons, now that we see that Jose Padilla converted to Islam and in a very negative way, got involved with groups outside the prison afterward. I think now prisons are probably going to be on high alert, and there will be extra scrutiny given toward the kind of religious programming they have and who is running it.

You know, religious freedom is guaranteed by the Constitution, but prisons have a lot of control over who the imams can be, for example. And they come in all stripes, you know, from very conservative to very activists and revolutionary, and prisons usually do a good job in keeping the wrong kinds of imams out of the system. But this will keep everyone on their toes.

ZAHN: But you can't guarantee that. So I guess my question is: What is the likelihood of an imam coming in who doesn't have America's best interest in mind, polluting the mind of a young convert in prison and potentially training them to carry out some kind of mission? Is that farfetched, or is that possible?

CONOVER: Of course it's possible, and actually I think we are going to see more examples of revolutionaries coming out of prison. I mean, this is a longstanding pattern. You know, at least -- talking about going back to the Black Panthers, they organized in prison, and there are a lot of sort of racially oriented gangs in prisons. There are religiously oriented gangs.

You hear the phrase "white devil" a lot when you are a prison officer in New York State. Most officers are white, most inmates are not. They resent the system that's holding them. They resent you. They resent the American flag on your shoulder a lot of times, and this can grow if it's not carefully watched.

ZAHN: Well, it's remarkable what you were able to do, Ted, where you actually went under cover for ten months. No one blew your cover, and you were perceived as a legitimate prison guard.

CONOVER: It was a -- it was about the only way it seemed to me to see what's really going on in prisons. We don't let enough light in there, and I think it's important that the country starts looking more at prisons and asking, what's going on to keep these people from feeling so separate? How can we keep them part of America?

ZAHN: Well, your observations are fascinating, and he writes about all of that in "Newjack: Guarding Sing Sing," a new book that's out -- Ted Conover, thank you very much for joining us on A.M.

CONOVER: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Appreciate your time.

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