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CNN Talkback Live

What Rights Do Accused Terrorists Really Have?; Church Scandal Keeps Expanding; Police Seeking Man For Questioning in Smart Case

Aired June 12, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.

Salt Lake City police have released the name and picture of a man they want to question in connection with the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. We'll go to Salt Lake City and find out more about this man, Bret Michael Edmunds, in just a minute.

Also, are your worried about how alleged terrorist and American citizen Jose Padilla is being treated in custody? Should he be released?

A judge could make that decision this hour. We're going to keep an eye on that and you can let me know what you think about Padilla's constitutional rights by calling 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mailing talkback@cnn.com.

Now, let's take a look at what else we have planned for you today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(voice-over): An attorney says the rights of alleged terrorist Jose Padilla have been violate and demands his immediate release.

DONNA NEWMAN, LAWYER: The last time I looked at the Constitution, he still had constitutional rights.

NEVILLE: Also, the "Dallas Morning News" makes some startling claim against the Catholic church and says the church isn't denying any of them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's about two-thirds of the hierarchy of the United States Church had played -- had had some sort of involvement in this issue.

NEVILLE: Award-winning journalist Ed Bradley tells what he uncovered while putting together a special on the Catholic church.

And documents show the lead detective in the Robert Blake murder trial deceived potential witnesses. We'll find out what that could do to police credibility in that Los Angeles trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(on camera): OK. Let's turn our attention now to Salt Lake City, where police today released a name and photograph of a man they want to question in the disappearance of 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart.

Elizabeth was kidnapped from her bedroom one week ago today, and CNN national correspondent Frank Buckley is going to fill us in today's developments. He's joining us now from Salt Lake.

And, Frank, tell us about this Bret Edmunds, and why do police want to talk to him?

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bret Edmunds is the man believed to have been in the neighborhood just before the time of Elizabeth Smart's disappearance, the Federal Heights Neighborhood from which she disappeared.

A milkman had actually called in some information to police a day or two before her abduction from her Federal Heights home. He said that there was a man in a car -- at the time he described it as a Corolla or a Honda, older model, possibly beige or gray -- didn't have the color exactly right or may have had it right, we're not clear at this point. But he described this compact car with a license plate of 266 then a series of letters.

Police ran that plate, it turned out that that particular plate that the milkman thought he was reporting did not come back as a valid Utah plate.

Now they do have another plate, we'll show you that in a second. But we also have an interview with this milkman who reported Bret Edmunds, or a man fitting the description of Bret Edmunds, first. And this took place with local television station KUTV.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE MILLER, MILKMAN: I was reading an article about the little sister, and what she described, the person, the guy that I had seen in this car actually fit that description. He had a white cap, like a baseball cap, kind of, like, and, you know, he fit the -- small profile, low demeanor, sitting in the seat, not a big person.

And so I thought while I was there I'd just feed this information to the authorities and just let them go with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BUCKLEY: Now we know last week, that Utah, Salt Lake City police, ran that license plate, as we said, that this milkman called ion, and that plate didn't come back as valid.

But the plate that has come back as valid, is 266 XJH. It's a 1997 green Saturn, Utah plates.

Again, police are not describing this man that they are looking for, Bret Edmunds, as a suspect, and they're certainly not calling him the abductor. They simply say they want to discuss the events of that evening, they want to talk to Bret Edmunds, see where he was. Right now he is just described as someone they want to talk to and there is a search underway here in the Salt Lake City area for him -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: Hey, Frank, does Edmunds have a record? Because I was curious about the picture they're using of him. It almost looks like a mug shot.

BUCKLEY: Yeah, he does, according to police, have a record, and most recently, he is wanted on two outstanding warrants. One for assaulting a police officer, another one for fraud.

They did tell me after the news conference that as far as they know he does not have a record as a sex offender. Yesterday, police chief Rick Dinse told us that there is a high probability that the person who abducted Elizabeth Smart is a sexual predator. But so far there is no indication that this particular person, Bret Edmunds, is a sex offender -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK, Frank Buckley, thank you very much for that report.

When we come back, terror suspect Jose Padilla's lawyer says her client's rights are being violated.

What rights, if any, does someone the government considers an enemy combatant have? We'll find out after this break.

Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: OK. Welcome back, everybody.

Sometime this hour, a district court judge could decide if suspected al Qaeda terrorist Jose Padilla deserves to be released.

The born-in-the-USA Muslim convert has been named an enemy combatant. He is being held by the military and, as yet, he has not been charged with a crime.

The government says Padilla was involved in an al Qaeda plot to detonate a dirty bomb, possibly in Washington.

His attorney, Donna Newman, is in court this hour trying to secure Padilla's release.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWMAN: My client is a citizen. Nothing has changed with respect to that. The last time I looked at the constitution, he still had constitutional rights. He has a right to be free of unreasonable seizure, a right to counsel, a right, if he's going to be charged by a grand jury.

(END VIDEO CLIP) NEVILLE: Joining us today is Doug Cassel, director for the Center for International Human Rights at Northwestern School of Law, and Brady Toensing, a criminal defense attorney.

Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.

OK, Mr. Toensing, I'm going to star with you today. What do you think the judge is going to do?

BRADY TOENSING, ATTORNEY: Well, if the judge follows Supreme Court precedent, I think that they'll have to find that a United States citizen, once they're designated as an enemy combatant, can be held.

NEVILLE: And that's OK by you -- his rights are not being violated?

TOENSING: Well, I don't know if they're being violated. The judge is going to look at that under a habeas corpus motion.

But the Supreme Court has said that United States citizens can be held by military tribunal if they are designated as enemy combatants. And, in fact, they can be executed.

NEVILLE: Right. and in fact that did happen in, I think, what, 1946. Don't quote me on that, but I think, if I remember my research correctly.

But in the meantime...

TOENSING: It was a 1942 case.

NEVILLE: Right.

TOENSING: Ex parte Querin.

NEVILLE: German -- it involved Germany?

TOENSING: There were eight Nazis who came ashore, and two of them happened to be United States citizens, and the Supreme Court found no problem with them being held and executed.

NEVILLE: OK. Thank you for the clarification.

TOENSING: Certainly.

NEVILLE: Doug Cassel, how do you see it?

DOUG CASSEL, NORTHWESTERN SCHOOL OF LAW: Well, what I see is the government claiming the right to take a United States citizen, Mr. Padilla, to charge him, or to accuse him publicly, on the basis of secret evidence, of being about to commit horrendous crimes, and then claim the right to hold him indefinitely until the war against international terrorism is over, some years or decades from now, without ever giving him a trial, without ever giving him an opportunity to have the proof against him tested in a court of law. And in the meantime, denying him access to his lawyer, which is being denied right now.

That's not what this country should be about.

NEVILLE: OK. Even though he is a war detainee?

CASSEL: He was arrested not in the field of combat, not in an actual combat zone in Afghanistan, like some of the other Americans who are in custody. He was arrested at O'Hare Airport, and as rough as things get at O'Hare sometimes, it's not a combat zone out there.

Apparently, he was unarmed. He was suspected of being about to commit a crime. He should be treated as a criminal and given a right to lawyer, judge, and trial.

NEVILLE: OK. Steve from Texas has something to say about this -- Steve.

STEVE: There is no asterisk to the bill of rights. This is -- the man has a right. He is innocent until proven guilty. We have a system. If it goes through the system and he is tried and convicted and executed, or whatever the law is, that's basically our rights, that's the bill of rights.

And this person has a right, as does everybody sitting here in this room. And they found him, you know, guilty, basically. Let him go through the system. Indict him if there's evidence to support it.

I mean, working under the precedent of fear and war, that's wonderful...

NEVILLE: OK. Wait, excuse me, fear and war. I think that's what the terrorists are -- they're working under fear, and I think that's a problem.

I'm not saying we're the same as them. I'm just saying this is a new day and we should consider that. Brady, how do you see this?

TOENSING: Well, as Supreme Court Justice Goldberg once said, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. And if these people are going to come in here without wearing uniforms and attempt to attack civilians, if we can prevent another September 11, well, we're going to have to hold him, and the Supreme Court has said it's OK.

And as Don Rumsfeld said today, this is about getting information.

NEVILLE: Information -- that's right. Not about punishing him. It's about getting information.

Bill from Rhode Island.

BILL: Hi. I just feel that if you're on one side, and you are attacking the United States, and then you're going to fall and try to get protection under that same policy while you're trying to destroy it -- it's just not right.

NEVILLE: Yeah, don't you forfeit those rights once you go against America?

BILL: You can't have both sides.

NEVILLE: I mean, yeah, you can't have it both ways.

I have a phone caller now. Go ahead, George.

GEORGE: Hi, Arthel. My comment is, there's no nationality in the word terrorists. And whether you're a United States terrorist or an Afghan terrorist, we need to deal with terrorists all the same. Thank you.

NEVILLE: OK. That was a short comment.

Brady, I want to ask you this, though. If Rumsfeld is saying, listen, we're not trying to punish Padilla, we just want to detain him until we can get information. Let's say they get information from him. Then what happens to him?

TOENSING: Well, maybe they'll try to get more information from him.

His detention will be tested under this habeas corpus motion.

If it continues for too long, maybe they'll file another habeas corpus motion, and the government is going to have justify holding him for a longer period of time.

They have held Abu Zubaydah. And apparently, according to the front page of the "New York Times" today, they've received valuable information that's helped the government avoid future attacks from al Qaeda.

And let me just say one other thing: al Qaeda has said in its manuals that the operatives should seek to exploit our civil justice system.

NEVILLE: OK, quickly, Travis. I'm going to give you the last word.

TRAVIS: OK. I just want to say I agree with Steve. Although I want the United States government to be able to prosecute terrorists, this man is a United States citizen. He has constitutional rights. When you start taking his rights away, then that endangers all of us.

He has a right to a trial. If he needs to be held...

NEVILLE: Hey, Travis, let me ask you this, though. What do you think about the fact that these terrorists are using these American rights and freedoms to kill Americans?

TRAVIS: Every potential criminal who has ever been on trial has tried to use his rights to his benefit. And that is his right to do so.

NEVILLE: But we're talking about different types of criminals now. We're talking about terrorists, people who would love to kill you, would love to kill me.

TRAVIS: Sure. I don't like it anymore than you do, or anybody else in this audience does. But this man is a United States citizen. You take away his rights, our rights can be taken away.

NEVILLE: I have more to say on that, but I am out of time.

Dough Cassel and Brady Toensing, thank you both for joining us here today.

And up next, award-winning network correspondent Ed Bradley joins us to talk about pedophiles in the Catholic church: who knew about them, the cover-ups, and why it took 20 years to bring the abuse to light.

Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

You might have heard it said about the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic church -- it's not just the crime, but the cover-up. And the "Dallas Morning News" documents the cover-up state by state in today's newspaper, and on its Web site there are pictures of bishops who moved abusive priests from parish to parish, and there are details of sex abuses in their parishes.

Also, the paper reports two-thirds of the Church's hierarchy allowed priests accused of abuse to keep working.

We've invited award-winning journalist Ed Bradley to join us today. The veteran "60 Minutes" correspondent has just completed an extensive investigation into the sex scandal in the Catholic Church. His report can be seen tonight on "60 Minutes II" on CBS, 8:00 Eastern time.

Welcome, Ed.

ED BRADLEY, JOURNALIST: Arthel, thank you for having me.

NEVILLE: Listen, before we start, let's take a look at a clip from that special, OK?

BRADLEY: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRADLEY (voice-over): But what the church didn't count on in Louisiana was the testimony of one 10-year-old boy.

SCOTT GASTAL (ph), VICTIM OF ABUSE: Start off with my name? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, what is your name?

GASTAL (ph): Scott.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scott what?

GASTAL (ph): Anthony Gastal (ph).

BRADLEY: In 1986, Scott Gastal (ph), seen here in a deposition tape, testified in open court how Father Gaute (ph) had abused him so badly, he had to be hospitalized.

A few weeks ago, we talked to Scott.

GASTAL (ph): I tried to put a stop to it, because I felt that the church was going to just try to cover all of it up, act like nothing happened, and just move him on down.

BRADLEY (on camera): Did you understand then what you were doing?

GASTAL (ph): Yes, sir.

BRADLEY: By testifying, by going public?

GASTAL (ph): Yes, sir. I had to grow up at a young age.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: Ed, now Scott, I understand, he also told you that Gaute (ph), the priest, had a gun someplace in the room. Either in the side table, near the bed, while he abused him?

BRADLEY: Arthel, Father Gaute (ph) kept a gun right next to his bed, on his nightstand. And he told Scott that if he told anyone, he would hurt his family.

NEVILLE: And what ever happened to Father Gaute (ph)?

BRADLEY: Well, Father Gaute (ph) was the first Catholic priest in this country who went on trial for pedophilia. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison.

He served 10 years in Louisiana, and then got out on good behavior, moved to Texas, and within three months was arrested for molesting a 3-year-old boy.

NEVILLE: This, I mean, this is outrageous, Ed.

I know that sometimes you guys on "60 Minutes" don't necessarily insert your opinion, but I can't imagine you were covering this story without something to say about it.

BRADLEY: Well, you know, I think it is outrageous. I think everybody would agree that this is not just a sin, but as Bishop Wilton Gregory says, it's a crime, and should be punished as such. What really shocked us, Arthel, was that the bishops who are meeting in Dallas tomorrow, have been spurred to this meeting by the recent spate of publicity in the last six months or so.

All of these accounts of things that happened -- priests committing these acts, being moved from one parish to another, documents being allegedly taken from their files, heavy-handed tactics against witnesses, both in depositions, and intimidation of the victims themselves by the perpetrators -- for example, telling them that you will go to hell -- or in Scott Gastal's (ph) case, telling them that he would harm his family -- all of that has happened before.

It happened, going back to Gaute (ph) case in Louisiana, almost 19 years ago.

NEVILLE: Right.

And this is nothing short of organized crime.

BRADLEY: Well, you know, it's interesting that you mention that, because Jay Milano, one of the attorneys in Cleveland, where part of our story takes place, as well as attorneys in five other states, have filed lawsuits against the church based on the RICO statutes, which were written to take down the mafia.

And they say that there is a pattern of corrupt activity. They use the intimidation, the obstruction of justice, and the tampering with evidence as their justification for a pattern of criminal behavior.

Jay Milano said if you were to take away the collars that the priests wear -- if you were to take away the cathedrals, this is a big corporation and it is corrupt.

NEVILLE: Will this be the demise of the Catholic Church?

BRADLEY: Oh, I don't think it'll be the demise of the Catholic Church, Arthel.

I think what people are hoping for, I think what good Catholics are hoping for, is that the bishops will take a strong stand and setup policy in Dallas that will be mandatory for all of the bishops across the country.

Now, Bishop Gregory runs the diocese in southern Illinois, and he's tough. He has taken swift, stern action against priests in his diocese who have committed these kinds of offenses.

What he wants to see is a lay review board that in one of these cases would recommend to the bishops what to do. Well, on the surface that seems good, but the critics point out that under Bishop Gregory's plan, the bishops are not required to follow the recommendation of the lay panel.

Also, the policy would call for reporting any priest accused of pedophilia to the police, and let the police sort out whether it's true or false. Well, that's a recommendation. But again, the bishop is not required to do it. So it only works if the bishop follows through on the recommendations.

NEVILLE: OK, Ed, you know, we have to take a break right now, but if you would, stick around with us.

And when we come back, we're going to Salt Lake City for a moment to speak to the police about the latest in the kidnapping of 14-year- old Elizabeth Smart.

TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. We are talking to award- winning journalist Ed Bradley.

But before we get back to that interview, I want to go live now to Salt Lake City, Utah, and talk with police officer Dwayne Baird about new developments in the kidnapping of 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart.

And I would like to know, first of all, what sort of information do you hope to get from Bret Edmunds?

DWAYNE BAIRD, SALT LAKE CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT: The information that we're looking at is that we will talk to him about his involvement or uninvolvement, whichever it happens to be in this case. He was up in this area. We know he had been here at least a day or two before the abduction.

NEVILLE: And this is a relatively quick turnaround in terms of grabbing someone that you would like to question. I understand he is not a suspect, of course. Does this make the police department there feel hopeful that they will get to bottom of this and solve this unfortunate case sooner than later?

BAIRD: Well, we hope so. But he's just one link in this case. And that's what we're relying on, that we can talk to him. Perhaps he'll give us some information as to some more detail that we perhaps don't have in this case. But we are looking for him to question him about this case, certainly.

NEVILLE: Isn't it typical in these instances that the police go from inside and then go outside -- work from within, I should say?

BAIRD: Yes, normally, that's the case.

And this man was within the area, the perimeter that we're looking at, in reinterviewing people that were either in the home, in the neighborhood, or had some access to this area of the city within a day or two prior to the abduction.

NEVILLE: Any more leads as to where Elizabeth is?

BAIRD: We don't have any real leads that I can talk about right now. We're working on leads every day. We get literally dozens of leads that our detectives and officers go out on research for us.

NEVILLE: OK, Dwayne Baird, thank you very much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

BAIRD: You're welcome, Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK.

And we want to go back now to Ed Bradley and talk about his "60 Minutes II" report on the sex scandal in Catholic Church.

And, Ed, do you think the bishops meeting in Dallas will resolve this crisis? It's been, what, 20 years or so that this has been happening.

BRADLEY: Arthel, I think the only way that the bishops meeting will resolve it is if they come up with a policy that is very clear, very straightforward, and which has to be adhered to by every bishop.

And, if the policy gives them -- if it is a wishy-washy policy that says the review committee can make this recommendation and the bishop has the discretion to follow it or not, or if a charge is brought against a priest, the bishop has the discretion to report that to the police or not, I don't think that is going to be acceptable to most Catholics in this country.

NEVILLE: Right.

And I have Bruce from Alabama here, Ed, who would like to ask you a question.

BRUCE: Yes, Ed. There are several priests that have committed suicide because they have been pointed fingers at. And, probably, they might have been innocent.

And, also, I'm from a small town in Missouri, up near Conception Junction, where the Conception Abbey monks were murdered a couple days ago. And I'm wondering if they were fallout or just happened to be bystanders there in the priesthood, because the Benedictine monks are real peaceful type people.

BRADLEY: Yes, I don't think there have been any allegations against them. And I don't think we can assume that, because someone commits suicide, that he is guilty or innocent.

NEVILLE: OK, Julie, from Florida.

JULIE: I just want to bring up the point that we're looking at this through the eyes of men. And, yes, these are men. And, yes, they should be prosecuted if found guilty. But we also have to look at it as the fundamental beliefs of the Catholic Church. We have to believe, as Catholics, whoever is a Catholic out there, or a Christian, you have to believe that this is about not just men. This is about God.

NEVILLE: And what do you mean by that? JULIE: Meaning that - you said earlier about the demise of the Catholic Church. We're not basing our beliefs on the acts of these men. We're basing them more on God, period.

NEVILLE: I understand that. But I guess the comment was more to the point of, there are a lot of Catholics now who are disenchanted with the Catholic Church.

BRADLEY: And I think, Arthel, what I have heard in reporting this hour that airs tonight is that a lot of Catholics say: "I still have my faith. I still believe in my religion. But I don't trust the institution of the Church anymore."

NEVILLE: That's precisely the point.

Judy from Texas.

JUDY: I think the most appalling thing that I have read has been the time involved in this, the 20 years. And they are still trying to find a way to deal with it. Twenty years in the real world is obviously very different than 20 years in the Catholic Church.

BRADLEY: You know, that was the most shocking thing that we found out. We looked at what was happening in Boston. And then we heard about it in Cleveland and other cities, here in New York as well.

And we went back and looked at what had happened almost 20 years ago in Lafayette, Louisiana, with the case of Father Gilbert Gauthe. He had molested, by some counts as many as -- they say they say in the hundreds. They are not sure how many he molested. And do you know how they dealt with it? He as was discovered in one parish, so they moved him to another parish. And these are small country parishes, country churches in Louisiana.

And then, finally, he is at one church, I think in Abbeville, and the monsignor there -- or, actually, it was in Lafayette. The monsignor, when he learned that this man was indeed a pedophile, he moved his bedroom from the ground floor of the rectory to the second floor. His reasoning was that it would then be more difficult for the priest to sneak boys into his room. That's how the church dealt there with it.

NEVILLE: And that's a mistake.

Bob from Georgia, how do you see all this?

BOB: Mr. Bradley, I have a question for you. Has your research indicated that this is an American problem or a worldwide problem? Listening to the news, I'm allowed to deduce that it is an American problem. And I don't know which way I should consider that.

BRADLEY: I think that this is a problem that takes place - it is not confined to America. This is a problem that the Catholic Church has in other parts of the world. The Catholic Church in America receives so much attention. And it is an enormous Catholic Church, with hundreds of diocese and bishops here, which is why it receives so much attention here, because it is America.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

You know, Ed, we take e-mails on this show as well. And I have one coming in now from Jim in Michigan. He says: "Put the bishops or anyone else who knew about the sex problem and withheld the information in jail."

And it seems that that seems to be the consensus, that people are not taking or accepting anything short of that.

BRADLEY: Well, I think that's the feeling you'll get from a lot of Catholics today, that they want people held accountable. And they look at bishops who, in the past have - who have condoned this, in effect, because they have not held their priests to a strict task.

They have not told these priests, "You cannot do this." What they have done is move them from one place to another and have essentially tried to keep it quiet. They have to hold them to a very strict standard. And, in many cases, they haven't.

NEVILLE: Ed, before we let you go, we are going to switch gears for a second here and just talk about the fact that you've been on "60 Minutes" for more than 20 years now. You've covered countless stories. I'm just wondering, is there anything at this point that shocks you?

BRADLEY: This story was shocking to me, Arthel. And I think, if people who would watch this program and listen to these victims talk, and hear how hurt they were and how painful it is for them to go on camera and talk to the nation about what's happened to them, and at the same time to say: "No one ever said to me, 'Are you OK?' No one from the Church said: 'This was wrong. I'm sorry. Can we help you?'" That was really shocking.

NEVILLE: Wow.

Ed Bradley, thank you very much for joining us here.

BRADLEY: Thank you, Arthel.

NEVILLE: And, of course, I want to remind everybody you can see Ed's special tonight, 8:00 Eastern, on CBS.

After this break, I'll tell you about a reported deception on the part of the lead detective in the Robert Blake murder case. We'll find out if there's a chance it could come back to haunt him.

Stay right there. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY, STUDENT, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Hi, this is Kelly from American University.

I think it is important to remember that pedophilia is not limited to the Roman Catholic Church. We all need to be vigilant about protecting children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

CNN has learned from learned from police transcripts that the lead detective in the Robert Blake murder case might have tried to deceive some potential witnesses.

I think we'll get a better idea about what happened if we watch this report from CNN correspondent Charles Feldman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Documents obtained by CNN appear to show the lead detective in the Robert Blake homicide case engaging in deceptive behavior while interviewing potential witnesses in the case, trying to pass off a book author writing about the case as a fellow police officer. According to the transcript of that police interview, Detective Ron Ito begins by saying, "Hi, I'm Detective Ito. These are my partners here."

It is only after one of the people being interviewed presses for the ID of the three men present that Detective Ito admits the third man is not a cop at all. "OK, he is actually a writer, and he's on our case with us." The person being interviewed says he thinks -- quote -- "It's rather odd, isn't it?"

Robert Blake's lawyer tells CNN the writer is Miles Corwin, an author of at least one book about the LAPD. A crime scene investigation note also obtained by CNN actually lists Corwin as part of the LAPD search team from the very beginning of the Blake investigation. Blake's attorney, Harland Braun, says the apparently deceptive practice goes towards impeaching the reliability of the entire investigation.

(on camera): I asked Detective Ito for an explanation of all of this, but he refused to answer any of my questions. His superiors at the LAPD have not returned phone calls, nor has the author.

(voice-over): Former LAPD detective, Tom Lange, a key investigator in the O.J. Simpson case, says in his over 300 homicide investigations he has never seen or heard anything like this. Next week, Blake's lawyer will again argue in favor of bail for the actor. He will also claim he needs half a year just to go over the material prosecutors have handed over as part of discovery.

(on camera): Harland, what are we looking at here?

HARLAND BRAUN, ROBERT BLAKE'S ATTORNEY: Well, these are 35,000 pages of discovery that we've obtained from the D.A.'s office. It goes from down there all the way over to here.

FELDMAN (on camera): And this cabinet here...

BRAUN: Which would be the 68th volume.

FELDMAN: Sixty-eight volumes and how many pages of material?

BRAUN: 35,192 pages so far.

FELDMAN: Right.

BRAUN: And of course the investigation is still continuing, because they arrested him before they completed their investigation. They're still out there looking for evidence.

FELDMAN: Now, the average homicide case would be how many volumes?

BRAUN: The average homicide case would probably be four volumes. Maybe 2,000 pages. A very simple homicide case may be, you know, one volume.

FELDMAN (voice-over): Blake's attorney says he has yet to see any physical evidence linking Blake to the murder of his wife, Bonny Lee Bakley. That it is all circumstantial.

LAURIE LEVENSON, PROFESSOR, SCHOOL OF LAW LOYOLA UNIVERSITY: It's really hard on prosecutors, because jurors are a little more suspicious of circumstantial evidence cases. They're looking for the hard physical evidence. And if you don't have that, the jurors have to rely on the credibility of the witnesses who come forward.

FELDMAN: Witnesses like the lead detective in this case. The one who apparently tried to hide the fact that his so-called partner is really a book author.

Charles Feldman, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE: OK, before we discuss this story, we are going to toss to the newsroom now, where Kyra Phillips standing by with some breaking news.

(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. We're talking about the Robert Blake murder case and reports that the lead detective may have misled witnesses.

Hear to talk about it are Sterling Ernie Norris, a former deputy district attorney in Los Angeles County. He is currently an attorney with Judicial Watch. Also with us by phone is CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

And welcome, both of you. JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Arthel.

STERLING ERNIE NORRIS, FORMER L.A. CO. DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Thank you for having us.

NEVILLE: Ernie, does this make any evidence gathered with this author present inadmissible?

NORRIS: It doesn't make it inadmissible, but it probably hits the hardest at the integrity of their investigation of anything that I have heard in this case.

I agree with the investigator, Tom Lange. I have worked in the DA'S office for some 32 years. I have never heard of such a practice. And this not a tactic gone wrong. This is what they tell you. They don't have anybody else at any of these interviews. And Mr. Harland Braun, Mr. Blake's defense attorney, will make great use of this. He will attack the integrity of the LAPD.

NEVILLE: And the credibility of Ron Ito, the detective, the homicide detective.

NORRIS: Absolutely. Everything that they have done, they will attack it. He will have questions like: "How much money has the writer paid you to let him go along? Do you have an interest, a money interest in the book?"

This has just led right to a defense attorney easy attack on the whole integrity of the investigation. I can't believe that he did that. I mean, anybody, even inexperienced detectives, that's what they teach in detective school.

NEVILLE: I'm going to let Faye jump in here from Pennsylvania.

FAYE: I can't believe it either. I worked in this field in the Montgomery County district attorney's office as a stenographer. And the first thing you do is identify every person in the room. And people who are not detectives or witnesses do not belong in the room, unless you're a stenographer, like I was.

NEVILLE: Jeffrey, can Robert Blake end up getting off the hook because of a technicality?

TOOBIN: Well, I think he will certainly make use of this. His lawyer will make use of it in cross-examining witnesses I don't think this is the be-all and end-all of the case. This is certainly not a good thing for the police. It's an embarrassment. It's amateur hour once again at the LAPD.

But there's a lot more evidence in this case. And I wouldn't overstate how important this will be, although, if there are other examples of police -- misconduct is too strong, it will add to the ammunition that the defense has.

NEVILLE: OK, Jeffrey Toobin, Sterling Norris, thank you very much for being with us. We are out of time, unfortunately. Now, about, tomorrow: If you think Elvis Presley is still alive, I want to hear from you. We are going to talk to Dr. Donald Hinton, the author of a controversial new book claiming Elvis Presley is alive and well. So, keep a record of those Elvis sightings, OK?

I'll see you then.

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