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CNN Live Today

Bishops in Dallas May Vote on Abuse Policy

Aired June 14, 2002 - 12:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The nation's Catholic bishops hope to vote by the end today on a policy for handling sexual abuse cases. But patience is a virtue here. The going is very slow.

CNN's Leon Harris is standing by in Dallas with the latest on the effort to quell a damaging scandal.

And I suppose the vote is still quite far off isn't it -- Leon.

LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Fredricka, that can be the understatement of the morning, or the afternoon, so far. I tell you something, it has been amazing for those of us who have never been here to be privy to this process to see what happens. It is amazing how similar this is to what we watch in Congress on a regular basis. The process they call a sausage making, well there's a little bit of sausage making here in Dallas.

And, you know, coming into the process this morning, so much talk and debate had gone into trying to put together a document yesterday. And the process went on late last night. And then first thing out this morning, we tried to get some sort of a gauge on where the bishops were in terms of coming to an agreement on this zero tolerance policy and whether there will be one. And here's what we heard this morning, first off this morning, from Archbishop Harry Flynn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARCHBISHOP HARRY FLYNN, ST. PAUL MINNESOTA: The bottom line remains, and that is no priest or deacon who has abused a minor can remain in ministry. As good pastors attentive to those we serve, we can do no less.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Now see that is easy enough to say, wouldn't you think? Well, then you have to put it down on paper, and that is when the process gets a little bit sticky. And what has been going on all day long has been haggling over certain things like definitions of what any abuse is, or definitions of which priests are the kinds of priests that should be in and should be out, that sort of thing.

And here's a sample of some of the deliberations that we've been listening to. Here -- listen now to Bishop Donald Wuerl. And he was giving his definition of what abuse really is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BISHOP DONALD WUERL, PITTSBURGH: Sexual abuse: contacts and interactions with a child and an adult when the child is being used as an object of sexual gratification for the adult. A child is abused whether or not this activity involves explicit force, whether or not it involves genital or physical contact, whether or not it is initiated by the child, and whether or not there is discernible, harmful outcome.

If there is any doubt about whether a specific act fulfills this definition, the writings of recognized moral theologians should be consulted and, if necessary, the opinion of a recognized expert be obtained. We also note that diocesan policies must be in accord with the civil law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: And it's amazing for those of us once again, who are on the outside watching, it is amazing to see just how detailed these bishops have got to get before they can actually come to a point where they can even vote. So we have no idea on how long we may be away from actually seeing a vote take place.

I want to bring in now our analyst, Father Thomas Reese, who has been watching this and who just moments ago received something we've been waiting on for hours now. It's a copy of the amended document that the bishops are going over right now.

REV. THOMAS REESE, CNN ANALYST: Yes, this is the second draft that has come from the ad hoc committee on sexual abuse. The first draft, as you remember, had an exemption in it for a cleric who in the past had one act of sexual abuse against a minor. There was going to be some openness to the possibility of him returning to ministry. That is gone. That is history.

The policy now will be that for even a single act of sexual abuse of a minor, past, present or future, the offending cleric will not remain in ministry. That is very definite, that is text that the bishops have before them, and so that certainly shows the direction in which the bishops are moving.

HARRIS: So what we heard Archbishop Flynn say moments ago on tape, that is actually what we see now on paper, correct?

REESE: That is correct. That is where they are right now. Of course, they still have to vote on this. It could be subject to amendment. But that is the direction that the committee is going, and they've been listening to the bishops. And clearly, they were all listening to the victims yesterday.

HARRIS: Yes. Now we've been listening to the bishops themselves this morning. At least you have been listening to them more than I have, and you've been covering these meetings for about 20 years. And we have all been amazed at just how slow the going is right now. Would you say what is happening right now is pretty typical of what's been happening here at these meetings for 20 years?

REESE: Yes, this is fairly typical. You've got almost 300 people in that room. They've got five or six versions and amendments and papers. You know when a bishop gets up to talk, which amendment is he talking about? They follow Robert's Rules of Order, you know, so amendments can be made to amendments and substitutes.

HARRIS: That's what we've been seeing.

REESE: It can get very, very complicated. And you got to remember, too, at least a third of these bishops are canon lawyers. So you know, each one of them is parsing words. It's like a committee of editors, the thing that every journalist is afraid of.

But you know, despite all this, it looks very chaotic, but the central thing that we've seen this morning is that they're moving towards a policy of zero tolerance, they're defining sex abuse as whatever the criminal code in their area says. Or even more strict than what the criminal code...

HARRIS: More strict than what the civil law would say?

REESE: Yes. So the minimum is what the civil law says. And you know, it could be even possibility of being stricter.

HARRIS: All right. Now how about on the other issue that we've been watching and waiting for some guidance on for the last couple of days, the issue of accountability of the bishops? Have we seen or heard any discussion at all about that particular point?

REESE: I think that is a tough one for them, because this body does not have the authority to fire a bishop or to tell him he should resign. If Rome makes this document mandatory, then every bishop will be legally bound to follow it. And if they do not follow, then it is up to Rome to get after the bishop.

I think, frankly, more important than that is this charter has public accountability written into it. Because every year there will be an annual report, a public report, that will audit each bishop, and it will describe what he has done or what he has not done to implement this charter. So the real force of this charter comes from disclosure, public disclosure, so that everybody in this diocese is going to know, including the media, whether he has enforced this charter.

HARRIS: Yes, but we heard yesterday from victims and victim- survivors themselves -- victims' families and survivors -- and they were saying that was not going to be enough. They did not think that having public scrutiny and public criticism was going to be enough pressure to make any real changes happen here. Do you think they're going to be happy with this, if it leads close to the form you see -- or you have right here in your lap -- what do you think the outcry is likely to be?

REESE: Well, I think what the victims want to see is not just words, but actions. So I think what we are going to have to do is come back to the victims, you know the -- in a year, when the annual reports are put out for the first time. We are going to have to see how many victims have been invited to be on these review boards to get involved in the diocese in making these judgments and reviewing priests.

I think if the bishops can invite the victims into the process, I think then we will see, you know, how well the bishops implement this. You know the victims are going to still be a voice here. They're going to be watching, and I think that's good. I think that's important.

With the victims watching, the media watching and the people in the diocese watching, that's what's going to make these bishops do the right thing.

HARRIS: All right. I want to go back to one specific voice in the media. Fredricka Whitfield, back in Atlanta, is listening, and she's got a question for you, Father Reese -- right?

WHITFIELD: Hi there, Leon and Father Reese.

I'd like to interject with this, because this policy, once the bishops approve it, it still has to reach the approval of the Vatican. And already, according to the "National Catholic Reporter" -- and this being written by John L. Allen Jr. -- he's the correspondent on this report -- coming out of the Vatican. He says, according to this report, that this zero tolerance policy, this second draft that you all are just now talking about is likely to run into some problems at the Vatican that -- I'm quoting now from this report -- "There is growing consensus in Rome that the zero tolerance stance on sexual abuse slated for adoption by the U.S. bishops is likely to run into difficulty in the Vatican."

If that, indeed, is the case, what is the recourse that the U.S. bishops might have?

HARRIS: All right. Fredricka, I'm going to have to relay that message, because Father doesn't have an earpiece in to listen to you.

Fredricka is bringing up information that she's getting right now -- indications that the Vatican may be -- is already expressing concern about what we're hearing here in terms of the definition of abuse. And if the Vatican does not necessarily approve or sign off on whatever document these bishops here do come up with, is there any sort of a recourse? Or what does the procedure provide for the bishops here if that is the case? If the Vatican turns down whatever it is they come up with?

REESE: Well, I'm always cautious when I hear things about Vatican responses, because that can be almost anybody in the Vatican. The pope, I think, has made clear to the American bishops he wants them to take care of this problem. And the American bishops are going to take it back to the pope.

There may be some Vatican bureaucrats who do not like what the American bishops are doing. There may be some canon lawyers over there who have questions about what they are doing. But when this document is finished, the U.S. bishops are going to take it directly to the pope, and they will argue their case with him.

But no matter what the Vatican says, you know, what sexual abuse is, how it is defined in the criminal codes in every state and diocese in this country, that is the minimum that we are talking about. And some of the bishops are making it even stricter than that.

HARRIS: Well, I think and I believe that maybe the point that Fredricka may be trying to get to in the case here is if the Vatican does not say have you to do this, it means it is not enforced upon the bishops here. Then do the bishops then, if they would like, or is it possible or is it perceivable that they would actually enforce it upon themselves without necessarily needing the Vatican's approval?

REESE: Well, the way the system is set up, they can voluntarily implement the charter. That is very important. And then secondly, if there is public disclosure of what they have done in terms of implementing the policy, then we can see whether or not they are actually implementing the policy. That's what's going to make this system work.

You know, frankly, there's a lot of things that are mandated by the Vatican that aren't observed.

HARRIS: Yes.

REESE: I have more confidence in the public disclosure of what each bishop is doing and what he's not doing to force them to implement this policy than I do in whether or not the Vatican mandates it.

HARRIS: And there you have it, Fredricka. And you can see just how complicated this whole process is. And we'll be watching to see how it all turns out. We're already getting some sort of indication from some of the cardinals and archbishops who are -- I'm sorry, archbishops and the bishops who are here, that there still is some mileage to go here before a consensus is reached. So we've got a little bit of work left to do here in Dallas -- back to you.

WHITFIELD: That's right. And if there are some 288 -- at least 288 -- bishops and cardinals who have yet to speak, then of course we're seeing a very long road ahead of us today. Thanks very much, Leon and Rev. Reese. Thanks very much for joining us.

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