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American Morning

Interview with Charles Colson

Aired June 17, 2002 - 08:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Thirty years ago today, five well- dressed men broke into the Democratic Party headquarters in the Watergate Building right along the Potomac River in Washington, D.C. And so, then, began the scandal that later brought down a U.S. president. When it was over, Richard Nixon had resigned, members of his staff, including our next guest, went to jail. To this day, questions remain, like who is Deep Throat, the shadowy character who led two reporters through the giant political and legal maze.

John Dean, then the White House lawyer said he intended to announce the identity of Deep Throat, but at the last minute, late last night, he issued a statement saying he is still working on it. He says he is close, but not there just yet.

Let's talk to a man who was in the middle of the scandal, and served prison time for his offenses. President Nixon's former special counsel, Charles Colson, is with us this morning -- sir, good to see you again, and good morning.

CHARLES COLSON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPECIAL COUNSEL: Good morning.

HEMMER: What do you think of on this day? What sort of significance does this hold for you?

COLSON: Well, for the country as a whole, I am, of course, saddened because we went through a terrible period in American life, in American history. For myself, I'm one of those fellows who says, Thank God for Watergate, because through it all, I was converted to Christ in the midst of it, and ended up starting a prison ministry as a result of my own prison experiences, now in 95 countries. So, I look back on it with gratitude that it happened, because out of that adversity has come some great blessings for me personally.

HEMMER: You have an amazing personal story. I want to talk a little bit more about it in a moment, but you have said repeatedly, especially over the weekend, you said America has not learned its lesson. Why not, and what's the lesson in there?

COLSON: Well, the lesson is -- and we do this, we're utopians in America. We think that we can cure things by political power, by institutions, and we think we can reform human nature, and so the whole theory during Watergate was get rid of those bad guys, and then we'll bring back the good guys. Well, you had the Clinton scandals. I mean, this is simply the cycle of life. We have to get over this myth that people are good and getting better, and realize what is the original teaching of the Jews and the Christians that people are fallen and sinners, and so don't put your trust in princes and kings, as the Bible said, put your trust in God all mighty, not in people.

And I don't -- I think we missed that. All of the reforms -- look at, all of the reforms of Watergate, the campaign finance reforms, the Church Committee, the intelligence reforms, they have all had to be repealed because you just don't find institutional answers to the problems of the human heart, and that's completely what I think (ph).

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: You almost talk -- you almost talk in a Shakespearian theme, almost like it is human nature, and it is inevitable.

COLSON: Well, I think it is. I mean, I think the sinful nature of man is such that we are going to continue to repeat these things. That's why you want the best restraints you can. That is why you really care about the moral climate in the country, because that's how you prevent these things. Look at the collapse that is taking place today with Enron and Arthur Andersen, Tyco, and all of these companies, one after another. This is simply a breakdown in ethics that is the result of a moral failure in the country. And we think we can fix moral failures of the human heart by fixing laws in Congress. It doesn't work that way.

HEMMER: Charles, you were called a hatchet man back in the 70s, you were called -- I am going to quote here now -- "incapable of humanitarian thought." People just did not like you, did they?

COLSON: No, I was not one of the more popular fellows in the Nixon White House. I wouldn't give interviews to the press. I thought presidential aides ought to be anonymous. You can see how spectacularly unsuccessful I was. But -- I wasn't very well liked, that's true.

HEMMER: I want to go to a -- I want to go to a -- apologize for the interruption -- I want to put up a quote for our viewers that took place back in the early 70s, during, really, the true heat of the Vietnam War days. And this is you, having a conversation with then President Nixon.

You go on to say, "people are beginning to sense that we are doing pretty damn well, that American casualties are down, which they are -- 19 Americans killed -- last week. They are used to hearing about 25 killed on automobiles in a weekend. The war is depersonalized. As long as the reporting continues as it is, you have total freedom on this issue."

The president responds, "we want to decimate that" -- blank -- "place -- North Vietnam is going to get reordered -- it is about time, it is what should have been done years ago." June 2, 1972. How close was the White House to ordering nuclear capabilities and nuclear bomb drops somewhere in Northern Vietnam?

COLSON: I don't think there was ever a real serious danger of a nuclear bomb being dropped, although that discussion did take place -- took place in 1969, and I was involved in discussions later with President Nixon about that. But I don't think he ever really thought about doing that.

The more logical solution, if you wanted to have a quick end to the war was to take out the dikes, and you'd flood most of North Vietnam. Nixon, to his everlasting credit -- he doesn't get much credit these days, so he deserves this -- Nixon, to his everlasting credit, refused to do that because there would have been enormous civilian casualties, and it would have violated all of the fundamental principles of a just war.

And so, that war was fought with tied behind your back, and with guys in the field, and many of them I had served with in the Marines, my classmates were there. It was a tough deal to fight that war. People forget that, that was one of the aggravating circumstances of Watergate.

HEMMER: Thirty years later, who's Deep Throat, Charles?

COLSON: I don't think there is one.

HEMMER: Really? Not true?

COLSON: You guys have -- you guys have used me -- no, for years, I've been saying it's a literary fiction, but nobody wants to listen to me because you're having much too much fun saying, John Dean is going to disclose it today...

HEMMER: Do you think Bernstein and Woodward made it up?

COLSON: Yes, I think it is a very legitimate literary fiction. I looked at the -- I read "All the President's Men," as much of it as I could handle, and I saw two or three cases where Deep Throat -- leaks were attributed to Deep Throat, or disclosures to Deep Throat, that I knew came from other people.

So I know to some extent, Deep Throat has to be a composite. I take my hat off to Woodward, he is a very clever fellow, so is Bernstein. And they came up with a great device whereby they could create some wonderful suspense, it made a very entertaining movie.

But all these years later, if there were a Deep Throat -- believe me, if I were Deep Throat, I would have stepped forward, taken my $10 million, contributed it to my ministry, and been done with it. There is no Deep Throat.

HEMMER: Charles, thank you.

COLSON: Good to be with you. HEMMER: We will find out one of these days whether you're right or someone else. A lot of folks believe you, and agree with your own theory, though. Charles Colson, 30 years later, best of luck to you, OK, in your ministry and your conversion.

COLSON: Thanks so much, Bill.

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