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CNN Talkback Live
Has the Trail For Smart Grown Cold?; Should Nickelodeon Programming Deal With Homosexuality?; Will Stewart Survive an Insider Trading Scandal?
Aired June 18, 2002 - 15:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Oh man, nice crowd. Hello everybody, and hello everybody at home. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
OK, there is new information in the case of missing Utah teenager Elizabeth Smart. And her family is out there pleading with her abductor to let her go. They're talking with police, with reporters, with just about anyone, hoping some little thing they do or say might bring Elizabeth back to them.
In just a minute, we'll go to Salt Lake City and find out where the investigation is leading.
And we have a whole lot of other things to talk about, too, and I want to hear from you, of course. Give me a call 1-800-310-4CNN or e- mail talkback@cnn.com. Now, sit back because here's what else we're doing today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE (voice-over): A family clings to hope, but has the trail leading to kidnapped teenager Elizabeth Smart grown cold?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We feel that it is probably somebody who may have been obsessed with Elizabeth. I mean that's my own personal feeling. I can't speak for the rest of the family members.
NEVILLE: Also, does Martha Stewart have a crafty way to use stock certificates?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If this drags on and she's guilty, that will be the end of the Martha Stewart brand.
NEVILLE: Plus, gays are OK on Nickelodeon, despite viewer protests.
And supersizing can leave you super sized. According to a new study, that could make you a real drain on health care. You do worry about that, don't you?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE: OK, everybody, we're going to start with the search for Elizabeth Smart.
CNN's Ed Lavandera is in Salt Lake City where police have released a new description of Elizabeth's abductor and, Ed, I want to thank you for joining us, but you know what, in addition to this new description, it seems as though, and you help me out here, that the details including the timeline, and what was said, or what happened that night keep changing.
What's going on Ed?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well we're having to do a whole lot of new legwork here, because what we thought we knew and understood to be the case and some of the central facts as to how this case first developed. And with the details of when the abductor entered Elizabeth Smart's room that she shares with her 9-year-old sister Mary Catherine -- some of the details of what happened that night, what we thought we knew was true isn't necessarily the case to be -- isn't true to be now.
We understand that the person they're looking for and the man who entered the room was soft-spoken, polite, dressed nicely and just was trying to keep everything quiet inside the house. But now based on the information that we're learning, they've done three interviews with Mary Catherine in the last week, and based on that information they also have a good idea of who this person might be; not a good idea of exactly who that person might be, but the type of person they're looking for.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. SCOTT ATKINSON, SALT LAKE CITY POLICE: We believe that this person may be a trusted person in the neighborhood or in the community. It might be someone, again, that's been up in this area that had reason to be here.
This person appeared to be calm, but was concerned that the victim not make any noise that would awaken other family members, including the younger sister, whom the suspect assumed was asleep. No conversations were made between the younger sister and the suspect at any time. The suspect did not know he was observed by this child during the time that he was in the victim's house. The witness observed the suspect at two different times, in two different locations within the house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: Now, that is different from what we -- police had told us originally here a couple of weeks ago when we were first starting to learn the details of what happened that night. Police had told us that the abductor had threatened Mary Catherine, told her not to tell anyone, and that was the reason we were led to believe that Mary Catherine didn't tell her parents until two hours later, because she was scared about what had just happened.
But that appears not to be the case at this point. So a lot of details changing as to exactly what happened that night, but one thing does remain the same and, although some of these details might change, the police say that even though they have new information as to what might have happened that night, the case remains and the truth remains that they still don't have any hard leads as to who might have committed this crime -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK Ed, stand by for me, if you will.
I want to bring someone else into this conversation right now. We're going to have joining us from the phone, is from Houston, a former FBI lead investigator, Don Clark.
And Mr. Clark, thank you so much for joining us here on TALKBACK LIVE.
DON CLARK, FMR. FBI AGENT: A pleasure to be with you Arthel.
NEVILLE: Now, I know you've been listening to this, and now police in Salt Lake City are saying that the little girl did not say anything that night. In fact, we thought earlier that -- or she did not -- the abductor didn't say anything to her.
Now, we're hearing that he did not, and we thought initially that he did and said, you know, perhaps: "If you say something we may harm your sister," or something like that." Of course, we don't know exactly, but what I want you to help us understand, is it normal in situations like this, when you have a 9-year-old eyewitness, is that what makes this more complicated?
CLARK: Well certainly, being 9 years old, Arthel, has a lot to do with it. But these are very difficult cases under any circumstances. Even the most intelligent adults don't oftentimes get information correct, and not only not getting information correct, but having a degree of a fear factor that's involved in that.
And keep in mind that even recent FBI statistics say that only about 200 abductions a year are stranger abductions. So the rest of them, somewhere in this, they are known to the victim, or the victim knows them in some way or another.
So it's very likely that this person was someone who knew. And it is very likely that this little 9 year old could have been extremely afraid, and just gave the information initially...
NEVILLE: Right.
CLARK: ... that she thought might be beneficial.
NEVILLE: Sure. That's what I was getting at.
Hang on for me, if you will. I'm going to go back to Ed Lavandera quickly.
Ed, just in a nutshell, what's next for police there?
LAVANDERA: Well, it's kind of up in the air. They're continuing to follow all the leads that they've gotten. They say they've gotten about 6,500 leads or tips from the public on the hotline number that they've established, but they do admit that those leads are starting to slow -- or starting to slow down. But they're pursuing everything they can. They have videotape, some surveillance tape from the neighborhood that they're looking into, as well as these interviews.
One other thing I want to point out is to -- about Mary Catherine. We asked a law enforcement official here in Salt Lake City if they had hypnotized Mary Catherine to try to get any kind of information and they say -- they wouldn't answer directly, but they said it's safe for us to assume that they've tried everything possible at this point. So you can kind of read between the lines there...
NEVILLE: Right.
LAVANDERA: ... and figure out what you want.
NEVILLE: Ed Lavandera, thank you very much.
LAVANDERA: You got it.
NEVILLE: OK, and Mr. Clark, you just heard the mention of hypnosis. Is that normal? Is that likely? Is that -- what about hypnosis?
CLARK: Well I won't say it's normal, but I think it has -- I know that it has been used in the past. Personally, I'm not a big proponent of it. I don't recall too many cases me being personally involved in that having used that technique. But it has seemed to help out in some cases that I've known of -- in a few cases that I've known of in the past.
But I'm not a big proponent of it, and I don't know to what extent that it might have an impact on a 9 year old, perhaps more so on someone that's a little bit older.
I think what may be their key and -- I suppose -- I noticed in a bit that I've seen that they said that they had gotten some more experienced interviewers, people with interviewing techniques for using -- for interviewing kids, which may be significantly different...
NEVILLE: Absolutely.
CLARK: ... than using adults. And that's a big plus, Arthel.
NEVILLE: Yes it is. Hang on for me because I have actually someone from your state of Texas, Barbara (ph) on the phone with a question. Go ahead Barbara (ph).
BARBARA: Yes, I'd like to know if anyone has seen any similarity between this case and the JonBenet Ramsey case.
NEVILLE: Mr. Clark, did you hear that?
(CROSSTALK) CLARK: I did -- I did hear that, and I've not heard of any information. And keep in mind that I don't have a pipeline into this investigative activity. But with all of the sources that I've been able to follow up with, I don't -- I have not heard of any information at this point that would lead one to believe that this is a similar type case as JonBenet Ramsey case.
NEVILLE: Before I let you go, let's talk about relatives. How closely should police be looking at all relatives?
CLARK: Well, I don't think that the police can afford to not look at anyone that comes up on the scope in any sense. And I would trust that the relatives would be very understanding that it's more of a matter of eliminating, so that they can go on to other business at hand, because they need to gather as much information.
They need to sort out the misinformation, the erroneous information, the fabricated information, and the people that they know that they can truthfully say, factually say, that had nothing to do with this, and then move on.
So I think, unfortunately, if it was my family, we'd have to go through the same thing, and I think that should happen.
NEVILLE: OK Don Clark, thank you very much for calling in on TALKBACK LIVE, OK?
CLARK: Pleasure Arthel.
NEVILLE: All right. Well, up next, Nickelodeon wants to tell your kids why some children have two mommies or two daddies. Will you tune in? Let me know. We'll be talk about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK, I already have a lot of people gearing up to talk about this next subject. Nickelodeon is airing a show tonight that has already generated, I mean, tens of thousands of e-mails and phone calls, all of them urging the network to keep it off the air.
Now, the show is called "My Family Is Different," and it's about children living with gay parents. And critics claim the show is designed to encourage homosexuality. But show creator, Linda Ellerbee says it's only about tolerance. Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many people on this set, and we'll leave the grownups out for now, how many people on this set have parents who are heterosexual? How many people on the set have one or more parents who are gay? OK, three of you. Marina (ph) tell me about your family.
MARINA: It's just the same as any other family except that I have two moms, and we do everything together. It's just the same, and we all love each other, very, very much. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you ever hide the truth about your family at any time from your friends or anybody?
MARINA: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you ever done that?
MARINA: No I don't. I never -- I never feel ashamed of my family because I'm really -- I love them in every way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: Well, I was saying to everybody here in the audience, I was wondering where the little girl in the clip lives because I think that determines how much people are tolerant.
Anyway, we're going to talk about this more now with Kevin Jennings. He's a former teacher and founder of GLSEN, the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network.
Welcome sir.
KEVIN JENNINGS, FOUNDER GLSEN: Thank you Arthel.
NEVILLE: All right and Andrea Lafferty, executive director of the Traditional Values Coalition.
And welcome to you as well Andrea.
ANDREA LAFFERTY, TRADITIONAL VALUES COALITION: Thank you.
NEVILLE: All right Andrea, you're going to go first. I would like you to tell me what's the problem here.
LAFFERTY: Well I think your opening comment was a pretty biased statement depending on where people live, that's what they think. Does that mean...
NEVILLE: No, listen, you know, you want me to be open-minded. I want you to be open-minded. But wouldn't you say regional -- there are people who maybe live in New York City who are more exposed to and more worldly and more exposed to different cultures and ways of life versus someone in another city. I mean...
LAFFERTY: I don't know if I would say it's open-minded. We would consider, you know, some folks say it's discrimination. We talk about discernment, and we don't think that this show is age appropriate for their targeted audience.
NEVILLE: Which is what, 12 to 15...
LAFFERTY: No...
NEVILLE: ... up?
LAFFERTY: ... it is 8 to 13 years old... NEVILLE: OK.
LAFFERTY: ... is their target audience and...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: According to the information that I got from Nickelodeon, it says: viewers -- suggested viewers 12 and up.
LAFFERTY: No, Nick News' target audience is 8 to 13. I've got that. It was e-mailed to me from Linda Ellerbee herself.
NEVILLE: Sure. I understand what you're saying. And I know that tonight they are going to air the show at 9:00. Typically, these specials air at 8:30, but they're going to push it back a little bit for that very reason that you're concerned.
Why are you concerned about this Andrea?
LAFFERTY: Well -- and it's not just me and Traditional Values Coalition. Over a quarter of a million parents have contacted Nickelodeon either by phone, fax, e-mail, petition, saying they're outraged. And why are they outraged? They feel like they have been betrayed. Nickelodeon bills itself as a safe harbor, a network that parents can sit their kids in front of and not worry.
Parents know what they get when they turn on Nickelodeon's sister network MTV, but they have been led to believe, and told by Nickelodeon that it's a safe harbor. And so now we have two -- a quarter of a million-plus parents, it's growing all the time, that are saying we no longer can trust Nickelodeon.
NEVILLE: OK. Kevin, why shouldn't parents trust Nickelodeon?
JENNINGS: I think we need to get to the reality of the issue here, which is in every community and every school there are children who have gay and lesbian parents, and what Nickelodeon is trying to do is to portray that that is the reality that our children live in and the world they live in.
Here in Winston, Salem, where I've been speaking for the last two days, I had two parents, two lesbian parents of a third grader, that's a 9 year old, come to me and tell me that they're having trouble getting their daughter to go to school because she's so terrified that her classmates will find out she has lesbian parents and pick on her and torment her, that she doesn't even want to go to school anymore.
NEVILLE: And Andrea...
JENNINGS: I think the reality is that these children have a right to feel safe. They have a right to a safe harbor in their communities, in their schools and they have a right to see their families treated with respect...
LAFFERTY: Sure.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: And Andrea...
LAFFERTY: And when I've spoken to Nickelodeon and to Lucky Duck, you know, they talked about making a -- doing a show on bullying. A lot of kids get bullied, but they've targeted a very, very small audience.
NEVILLE: But see that's...
LAFFERTY: They're making it...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: But Andrea, that's...
LAFFERTY: Let me finish. The homosexual community is trying to make it sound like every third house on your street has a homosexual family. It's not true. It's a very small percent of the population.
NEVILLE: But this is where I was going early, Andrea, when I said it depends on where you live. If you live in Los Angeles, for instance, you're going to run into this more -- more so than you maybe would here in Atlanta. And that's precisely what I was saying.
And I think that even if with -- I think what Kevin is saying, that even if it is a small percentage that we're talking about, the kids, it doesn't matter if it's one child or two children who get teased because their parents are of the same sex, I mean I think what Nickelodeon is trying to do here is to try to inform people and educate.
(CROSSTALK)
LAFFERTY: ... homosexual propaganda...
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Arthel, if I could respond to what you just said.
LAFFERTY: If they really -- it's homosexual propaganda. If they really cared about kids being bullied, they'd worry about the fat kid, the skinny kid, the kid with freckles. You know, when I was in junior high...
NEVILLE: But they've dealt with that as well.
LAFFERTY: What?
JENNINGS: I think...
NEVILLE: They've dealt with that type of -- those subjects as well.
LAFFERTY: This -- they said they were going to -- see people have to understand Nickelodeon has repeatedly lied to me about this show, repeatedly.
Kevin Jennings provided them with a homosexual principal to do the show. When I spoke to Nickelodeon on April 29 they said, we know nothing about this show. This show doesn't exist. Yet that very day this homosexual principal sent out a letter saying he would be on Nickelodeon on June 18. How does this homosexual principal know and not Nickelodeon?
There have been lies after lies. Nickelodeon should just come clean...
NEVILLE: OK hang on.
LAFFERTY: ... hemorrhaging over this issue.
JENNINGS: Arthel...
NEVILLE: Go ahead Kevin.
JENNINGS: ... I think what's interesting here is what's getting lost here are the kids. In the midst of Andrea's political rhetoric, we're missing the fact that these kids do exist. They do go to schools. They go to schools where GLSEN found in a national school climate survey last year that 91 percent of them hear phrases like, "that's so gay," every day at their school.
NEVILLE: OK.
JENNINGS: I think that happens because the children aren't being educated about the diversity of the world they live in and anything we can do to provide them with information that helps them understand and respect their classmates is a good thing.
NEVILLE: Sarina (ph) from New York.
SABRINA: I was just going to say the same thing while I was waiting to talk, but it does seem like the children are lost in this debate. And there's so much pressure to conform at that age that the children who have the same-sex parents, you know, regardless of what you think of what their parents are doing, what about those children? Why shouldn't they see other people who are in the same situation not have to feel like so much of an outsider?
NEVILLE: Absolutely. Absolutely. And more on this after this break. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: All right, Clint (ph) come on. Welcome back everybody. We're talking about whether a show airing tonight on Nickelodeon is promoting tolerance or homosexuality, and Clint (ph) you're up now.
CLINT: Actually, I personally would rather not have the show shown, but then again, we are in America. I do respect the right to view, or to talk about it, or show your opinion. However, I personally believe that it's up to me and my wife to teach the children about homosexuality. It is a fact of life. It is out there. My children do need to be aware of it, do -- I do not want them abusing those people or doing anything like that, but again I would prefer that it's not on there. But I can turn it off and I can teach my children so that they can make up their own mind and do what's right and (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
NEVILLE: Thank you very much, and I want to go to the phones right now. I've got Georgette (ph) from Indiana. Go ahead Georgette.
CALLER: Hi Arthel, thanks for taking my call. I think it's about tolerance. It's a wonderful thing they are doing, because gay people aren't bad people. There's a lot of straight people out there in the world that abuse their children. I know quite a few people that have children that are lesbian couples, and their children do wonderful in school. I have chosen not to have children because of society and the backlash of that and...
NEVILLE: What do you mean by that?
CALLER: Well, with the peer pressure that kids get today, you know they get teased because they're fat like they were talking earlier. But when someone comes up to you and says hey you got two mommies or you got two daddies, you're weird, it's not about being weird. It's all about loving another human being.
NEVILLE: So let me...
CALLER: And when you're raising children...
NEVILLE: Georgette (ph) hang on. I want to understand your perspective. So you're saying you chose not to have children because you don't want your children to be teased. Are you saying...
CALLER: Well, not fully, totally for that. I'm disabled as well.
But my main reason is because, you know, I know how children get teased. I was teased when I was in grade school and high school when I knew I was gay, and just remembering how things were back then.
You know, times do change, and hopefully they're getting better for us gay people because we are good people.
NEVILLE: OK, thank you Georgette (ph) in...
CALLER: Thank you.
NEVILLE: OK, and I have Terry (ph) here. What do you have to say Terry (ph) from California?
TERRY: Well, I was going to say that this reminds me a lot of the talk that I used to hear in the 1950s and some of the '60s regarding interracial marriage. A lot of people were very uncomfortable with interracial marriage. They didn't want to talk about it, and I think some people thought if they didn't talk about it, it would just go away, which would have made them good. But the reality is and thank heavens it didn't go away...
NEVILLE: Because all those cute kids would not be here.
TERRY: Absolutely. It's for the benefit of all of us. And I'm so happy that in 2002 we can talk about it and it's not an issue anymore and I think this is the same thing. There are tens of millions of gay, lesbian, bisexual people in the United States. They have children; those children have to have a place in our country.
NEVILLE: Absolutely. Thank you very much.
TERRY: Thank you.
NEVILLE: You know what? I'm going to let -- hang on for me Andrea. I have got to let Wayne (ph) from New York speak out. Go ahead Wayne (ph). You're live.
CALLER: Good afternoon. I'd just like to say offhand that Nickelodeon, I believe, has now crossed the line when it comes to showing this type of show in a time slot, which is normally in an area which is almost deemed a family hour. Yet, it's shown at 9:00 p.m.
I would still consider, if they are going to show this, make sure it is for those above the age 13 and higher. But I would not let anybody under age 13, at least right now, look at this show, unless they absolutely know what they are going for.
NEVILLE: OK, thank you, Wayne, for calling in.
OK, Andrea, you got 15 seconds.
LAFFERTY: Well, there's a number of issues here. The homosexual community is saying that there are 6-10 million homosexual kids. That is absolutely impossible, because the census says there is like 590,000 homosexual couples. That would mean there would have to be 10 kids per family. So, I was sort of addressing what this gentleman said earlier.
Another thing is, is that a lot of parents don't know this show is going to air tonight.
NEVILLE: A lot of them do now.
LAFFERTY: For instance, in Washington, D.C., the "TV Guide" says it is the "Bill Cosby Show." And so a lot of parents may go out and tell the babysitter: "Look, my kids can't watch "MTV" or ""HBO," but they can watch Nickelodeon." They don't know that it is on, necessarily.
NEVILLE: Kevin, you got 15 seconds.
JENNINGS: The reality is, family hour includes families that are headed by gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people. Those families deserve respect. Those families deserve to see themselves reflected in the world. And those families deserve to know that their children will be safe in the community and at school.
I think programs like this, which help promote understanding and respect, are good things that help all families in America, especially those that have gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people in them.
NEVILLE: That was good in 15 seconds, Kevin. All right, now.
Thanks, Andrea. I really appreciate both of your perspectives. And, of course, it is up to the people to decide to watch or not. And, again, thanks a lot for being with us today, OK?
LAFFERTY: Thank you.
JENNINGS: Thank you for having us on.
NEVILLE: Oh, absolutely.
And up next: An insider trading scandal threatens the reign of Martha Stewart. Find out why she's getting a cold shoulder from Wall Street.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Hello, everybody. Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
Just how crafty is Martha Stewart? Did she just happen to sell off her stock in the biotech company ImClone Systems just before the FDA rejected the company's new cancer drug? Or did she get the inside scoop from personal pal and former ImClone CEO Sam Waksal? Suspicions that she might have been on the inside track have caused Stewart's own stock to plunge 24 percent this month.
And here to talk about this, insider trading and Martha Stewart, is Andy Serwer, editor at large of "Fortune" magazine.
Welcome, Andy.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE": Hi, Arthel. How are you?
NEVILLE: Well, I'm fine.
But first, before we go any further, do me a favor here. Could you explain to us how this insider trading works?
SERWER: Yes, I can.
First of all, she is only being investigated right now by government regulators. But here is how it would work. It's insider trading and illegal to sell a stock if a corporate executive or officer tells you information that's private, that hasn't been released to the general public yet, that might cause the stock of that company to go down later. You have to wait until that information is released to the general public before you would sell a stock like that.
NEVILLE: Right.
Now, who typically benefits from insider trading and who just gets the shaft?
SERWER: Well, of course, insider trading is illegal.
NEVILLE: Yes, exactly.
SERWER: So...
NEVILLE: We're not promoting it here.
SERWER: No. This is not a how-to course, Arthel.
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: Exactly.
SERWER: The way it would work is, if a CEO or a top executive knew some bad news was coming out and it was going to make the stock of his or her company go down, he or she would sell the stock before it went down, and then take all those proceeds, put it in a bank account, and hope they didn't get caught.
Of course, that hurts everybody, all shareholders, because we all invest based on an honest and fair and level playing field.
NEVILLE: That's right.
Now, regarding the Martha Stewart story -- and, of course, yes, it's just an investigation at this time.
SERWER: Yes.
NEVILLE: I mean, what's going to happen in this case?
SERWER: Well, right now, it is very much of a hot issue. It is ongoing. Government regulators apparently are waiting for information from Martha, if I can call her by her first name.
NEVILLE: Oh, you can. Go ahead.
SERWER: Yes, I can.
She is supposed to turn over phone records, stock trading records, and they're also waiting for those same records from her broker, the Merrill Lynch broker that conducted this transaction. Apparently, there are some discrepancies between her story and his story. Investigators and Congress very much want to make sure there are no discrepancies. It looks kind of fishy, quite honestly, that she sold the stock the day before the company released bad information, also at a time when other people who are being investigated for insider trading sold stock.
NEVILLE: Right. And if you could explain the relationship with Dr. Waksal and Martha Stewart, if you know about it. SERWER: Well, it's maybe kind of complicated. I think they were certainly very friendly over the years. Some people have said they dated or that she was his girlfriend. Sam Waksal also dated or had a close relationship with Martha Stewart's daughter.
NEVILLE: Daughter, right.
SERWER: That is widely known in New York City, maybe raised a few eyebrows, maybe not.
But it's all part of the social scene, the social swirl here in New York City. Sam Waksal and Martha Stewart were fixtures, of course, in the Manhattan social scene.
NEVILLE: OK, I have Vivian here with a comment.
VIVIAN: OK, I think she should be investigated. I don't care what her status is as a very well-respected businesswoman, although many people are jealous of her. If she broke the law, she should pay for it.
NEVILLE: Hey, now, Andy -- thank you, first of all.
Andy, what is -- hey, there you are. What is Martha saying about all of this?
SERWER: Well, she, so far, released a statement last week saying that she is not guilty at all of insider trading. But, as these charges have sort of snowballed a little bit or gained momentum, she has kept very quiet, which is somewhat unusual for her.
She is usually very talkative and responsive to press queries for interviews. And, clearly, no one should be above the law. That's what's going on in America. We are seeing all these CEOs getting in trouble. Everyone needs to be held accountable of the same law, workers on the factory floor and CEOs.
NEVILLE: Hey now, Andy -- that Martha, apparently what happened, she told her stock broker a couple of weeks prior to this December 27 or 28 date in question here that: "Listen, if this stock drops below $60 go ahead -- $60 right? -- "go ahead and sell."
SERWER: Right.
NEVILLE: OK. So, first of all, I mean, can you give that sort of direction two weeks in advance? Typically, I understand that you have to call and say, "OK, do it now" kind of thing.
SERWER: Right.
NEVILLE: You can't leave on it the voice mail to sell. Tell me, tell me, am I right here?
SERWER: Yes, you're definitely on the right path here. It's called a limit-order or a stop-loss. Or you can call your broker up and tell him or her that you want to sell a stock when it gets down to a certain level.
A couple problems here, first of all -- or a couple points. First of all, there should be a written record of that order.
NEVILLE: Exactly.
SERWER: It's an actual piece of paper, number one.
Number two, there is a discrepancy, apparently, between when Martha says she told the broker about this order and when the broker says he was told about this order. That's a key thing that investigators want to straighten out.
NEVILLE: And then also whether or not Martha had a conversation with Waksal the day before or not.
SERWER: Yes, exactly.
She says she didn't. She says she called and, I believe, left a message saying, "What's going on with ImClone?" and, apparently, did not speak to him. But, again, investigators stress they're simply taking her word for it -- not that they don't believe her, but they want to make absolutely sure.
NEVILLE: Yes. And they said, if they can't get in through the front door, they'll get in through the back door.
(CROSSTALK)
SERWER: Oh, I like that comment, too.
NEVILLE: Exactly.
Hey, listen, I have Dennis here from Indiana. Dennis, what do you think about all of this?
DENNIS: Well, I just think there are too many inconsistencies in the story. It smacks of impropriety. She's not above the law, so she should be investigated. Anyone else would in this situation.
NEVILLE: OK, thank you very much.
And I'm going to walk over this way here. Can you walk backwards with me, Michael?
David. Come on, David, stand up for me.
DAVID: I don't know whether she had inside information or not. But this is the sort of thing that makes the American public suspicious of the super wealthy. She should have had enough class to either sell at 60 days out, or if she did know it was going down, just to take her hit. She doesn't need the money and that's why people just have a problem with this kind of thing.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Thank you very much, David.
OK, John, from California, you're live. Go ahead. What do you have to say about all of this?
JOHN: Hi, how are you?
NEVILLE: Good.
JOHN: Just a quick comment. I lost my job last year. I was laid off due to a corporate merger. And our CEO walked out the door with $20 million. And other people walked away with hardly nothing, including myself. My comment, I guess, is, how much does someone need, if she is guilty? The woman is worth -- I don't know what -- $55 million, $100 million.
NEVILLE: So, when you say how much does she need -- what? What do you mean? Oh, you mean...
JOHN: The money. Why would she even stoop, if she did do this, to insider trading? How much -- you can't take it with you.
NEVILLE: You're right.
Quickly, Fazi (ph). I promised I'd get you on.
FAZI: Yes. I agree with what he just said, that she is a multimillionaire. She doesn't need that quarter-of-a-million dollars. So, why would she risk her reputation, her business, her life to do something like that?
NEVILLE: OK, thank you very much.
And, Andy Serwer, I'm out of time, but thank you for joining us here today.
SERWER: Thank you, Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK. We'll see you again.
SERWER: See you.
NEVILLE: All right. And up next: What happens when you supersize your meal, get a little extra fries, a little extra shake? Take a look at this and then we'll talk about what you really, really get when you take that meal to the next level. Wow. Mucho grande, 1,320, 82 fat grams. Wow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: All right, welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
Do you supersize your fast food? Do you supersize your fast food, I want to know? What a deal we're talking about. For a few more cents, you get enough extra to feed a friend, OK? But the National Alliance for Nutrition and Activity says you are being manipulated by the food industry, manipulated into eating more than you need and more than you want. The group wants us all to rebel against being supersized into super sizes.
And CNN medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is going to join us in New York now.
And I hear you brought some snacks, right?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We definitely brought snacks, Arthel. It's just...
NEVILLE: All right, I have some snacks here, too, but I have to introduce my next guest as well.
And that's going to be Dr. Margo Wootan, director of nutrition policy at the Center for Science in the Public Interest.
And, of course, welcome to both of you.
MARGO WOOTAN, CENTER FOR SCIENCE IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST: Thank you.
NEVILLE: All right, Dr. Wootan, I'm going to start with you, because isn't it pretty obvious that if you eat too much fast food you're going to get fat fast? I mean, what exactly compelled you to do this study?
WOOTAN: Well, most people realize, if you get the supersize fry instead of the small fry that you're going to get more calories. But they may not realize that they're getting three times as many calories. Supersizing your fries changes it from a side dish to having as many calories as in a whole meal.
NEVILLE: So, you really think that people don't realize that? Come on. Look at it there. Right now, I'm showing a regular-size order of fries and then I've got the supersize. If I just look at that, I can kind of see I've got about a third more French fries in there. And so I'm going to get fatter off the bigger one.
WOOTAN: It's a question of how much.
For just a few more pennies, you can upgrade to a bigger size. But you actually get substantially more calories. You can get 300, 400, 500 more calories by upgrading. You end up changing something which could fit into a healthy diet, like a normal-size or a regular- size order of French fries, into something that is very difficult to fit into a healthy diet.
NEVILLE: OK, hang on for me, Doctor, because I have Julie. Hang on one second, Julie.
I'm going to go to Kyra Phillips now in the newsroom with some breaking news.
(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
NEVILLE: OK, welcome back, everybody.
We're talking about supersizing it.
And before we go on, hey, Elizabeth Cohen, what do you have there for us? Give us some examples of this supersizing stuff.
COHEN: OK, here we go.
I actually have examples of two different meals. One is a regular-size value meal. And the other is supersized. Let's take a look at the regular-size meal. You have here a Whopper and a regular- size fries and a soda. But, for just 87 cents more, you can get a bigger burger, a bigger fries. I've never seen a fries this big, actually.
NEVILLE: Oh, my goodness. That's scary.
COHEN: And a really big soda that's actually kind of hard to pick up.
NEVILLE: Who is going to drink that? Who can drink all that? Anybody here who can drink that, raise your hand.
Who said yes? Hang on.
Bob, you can drink that much soda?
BOB: Yes, I could.
NEVILLE: Do you supersize it?
BOB: I don't anymore, no.
NEVILLE: And how much weight have you lost since you stopped supersizing it?
BOB: I've lost 41 pounds since February 1.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Very good. Very good.
WOOTAN: Actually, studies show...
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Go ahead. Who was that?
WOOTAN: Studies show that, when people get bigger serving sizes, when they order them or are served bigger portion sizes, that they eat more.
And national surveys also show that two-thirds of people report that, when they eat out, they eat their entire entree most of the time or all of the time.
NEVILLE: Right. Because they're like: "I have to pay for it. I'm going to eat it." Exactly. WOOTAN: Yes. If you get it, you eat it.
NEVILLE: Hang on for me, Doctor. I have got a camera set up in Los Angeles, where I want to bring in Melissa and Elizabeth, a mom and a student.
And, Melissa, the college student, I am going to start with you first.
Do you supersize it? And what do you think about all this?
MELISSA CARR, COLLEGE STUDENT: I supersize occasionally. But I have to believe that, inevitably, it comes down to the consumer. You choose what you choose to eat. So, you must know going into it that you're getting more calories.
NEVILLE: Oh, yes.
CARR: With a healthy...
NEVILLE: I'm going to let mom -- I'm running out of time here.
Go ahead, mom. What do you say about this, Elizabeth?
ELIZABETH, MOTHER: Well, I supersize only if I know I'm going to share with someone or split it with someone, because it's been very difficult for me to try to keep a healthy lifestyle and lose weight and keep up with my two small children.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Let me jump in there, mom. What about the kids?
ELIZABETH: Excuse me?
NEVILLE: What about the kids? Isn't it easy to drive through the fast-food restaurant, pick up some stuff for the kids, and get them the biggie fries or whatever?
ELIZABETH: You know, my kids are too small to finish anything. And that's why we have to split everything up. But fast food is not something that we do more than maybe once a month, because I try very hard to cook. And my husband is a chef at home. And we really try to cook for ourselves.
NEVILLE: All right, Elizabeth and Melissa.
Melissa, you look like you work out all the time. So, that's good for you.
And you know what? That's what it's about, right, Doctor? You got to work out as well as watch what you eat.
We're out of time. Thanks, Elizabeth.
Margo, thank you, Dr. Wootan, very much. And, Elizabeth, of course, thank you as well.
And thanks to all of you watching.
And tomorrow, Gene Simmons will be here. He'll talk about his new magazine called "Tongue," of course.
I'm Arthel Neville. And I will see you at 3:00 p.m. Eastern.
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