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American Morning

NSA Translated Relevant Messages on 9/12

Aired June 20, 2002 - 07:08   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: To Washington now and the chilling messages intercepted by U.S. intelligence the day before 9/11, September 10, but not translated until the day after September 11.

David Ensor broke this story yesterday, back with more this morning -- David, good morning.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Bill. We learned the exact phrases used in two conversations intercepted by U.S. intelligence the day before the attacks, September 11, words warning that something major was planned.

In one of the intercepted communications September 10, intercepted by the U.S. National Security Agency, congressional and other sources told CNN a person presumed to be from al Qaeda said -- quote -- "The match begins tomorrow." In another intercept that day, a different person said -- quote -- "Tomorrow is zero hour."

Now, these intercepts were not translated until September 12, the day after the attacks. And General Michael Hayden, head of the NSA, which is the U.S. government's massive eavesdropping agency, was questioned at length back on Tuesday about the intercepts, according to congressional sources, who were present at the hearings, which are being held behind closed doors this week and to missed clues prior to 9/11.

General Hayden told the legislators, sources say, that the volume of intercepted communications each day is so huge that despite the size and high-tech resources of the NSA, there was and still is no way all of the potentially relevant material can be translated on the same day. Intelligence officials say even if they had had those intercepts translated that day, there were no specifics upon which to act, nothing on when, where, how or who.

Still, the words "tomorrow is the zero hour" and "the match begins tomorrow" heard from al Qaeda on September 10 indicate, according to some in Congress, that changes may be needed, at least in the speed and quantity of U.S. intelligence analysis -- Bill.

HEMMER: David, it appears the American public very soon, they are going to get a pretty good education as to the workings of the NSA, largely a secret operation in the state of Maryland. To this point, it's been the CIA and the FBI largely in front, taking the bulk of the scrutiny. Does it change now? Does it shift toward the NSA? What is your sense in Washington?

ENSOR: The NSA is clearly going to get its share of the attention. This is the either first or second largest employer in the county in Maryland in which it sits. There are 30,000 or more employees out there. They receive about two million communications an hour and have to try to sift through those, figure out which are important and get them translated and in front of people like the president.

It's not easy. They clearly need more help, in the opinion of at least some on the Hill. And there may have been some opportunities missed on September 10 -- Bill.

HEMMER: Not easy, to say the least. David, thank you -- David Ensor working that story in Washington.

So then, could an opportunity have been lost in the translation of the al Qaeda messages? CNN security analyst, Kelly McCann, joins us now live from Washington to talk about that and the fear of July 4. This message went out yesterday -- Kelly, good morning.

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Hi, Bill.

HEMMER: Is it fair to say and criticize right now that these messages that were interpreted two days after September 10, is that fair criticism in your view?

MCCANN: No. And the reason is, exactly as David just said, two million communications, bits of information an hour. I mean, you can only imagine. This is very analogous to the media industry. Out of all of the stories that CNN could run that come across the wire that folks like you look at, you've got to choose which one will actually be newsworthy, and that's with post-incident reporting. Can you imagine what it would be like to sift through all kinds of phone calls and e-mail and indications and try to predict what next week's story is going to be?

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: A fair comment. Senator Richard Shelby said yesterday, he took that argument and he said, you know, if we had taken the information, put it with other items, lined it all up, he opened up the possibility for maybe, possibly it could have been.

MCCANN: Well, you know, Bill, in the totality of information we have now, sure. I mean, if you take all of these disparate bits of information and had the luxury of time, and could actually corroborate sources and line things up, yes, there would probably have been some indicators that airliners were going to be used, and that major metropolitan areas were going to be targeted, et cetera. But given the condition that existed, I think that it is unfair criticism, based on that level of security at that time.

HEMMER: Fair point. We know there are al Qaeda leaders apparently of good significance in different parts of the world that have been apprehended, some of them apparently being questioned right now. What do you make of this case in Syria, Mohammed Zammar, a man taken into custody there? Can the Syrians make him talk in ways that U.S. officials cannot?

MCCANN: You know, Bill, it goes to the issue of the wanting immediate action, and a lot of times people cry torture. They want to use those kinds of physical means. Yes, there are ways to develop information from somebody, but normally, when a country is unrestricted and can do virtually anything, they can insinuate that family members would be injured or killed. They can insinuate or actually conduct things that would be much more likely to provoke information than just physical beatings and that kind of torture.

So I would imagine that they are using a bunch of different varieties that we are not normally finding palatable here in the U.S.

HEMMER: But, Kelly, if you consider the fact that the U.S. insists that it only use mental games and doesn't go so far as one would classify or define torture...

MCCANN: Right.

HEMMER: ... the reports that we heard this past week that apparently the U.S. is transferring some of these detainees to third countries, would you buy the argument that the strategy here is to allow these countries to go ahead and interrogate at will?

MCCANN: I don't think that that would be a formal policy. I think more, there has to be some kind of endgame. In other words, we can't just have a Bastille down in Guantanamo, where these folks go down there and sit for the rest of their lives. So I think that we run the course as far as we can, what's palatable to us, and then they are returned to the nations as they would be expatriated anyway.

So I don't think that there is a formal decision to, OK, let's move this person along where, you know, he may be tortured to get information. I think more, it's an indication we are at the end of our line.

HEMMER: Back it up a little bit, then. If a person is in custody of U.S. officials to play a mental game, how do you do it? Give us an example.

MCCANN: Well, one of the biggest things that -- one of the biggest elements that is used is the element of uncertainty. To the degree in all of the training in the U.S., it revolves around that when you do resistance training and survival training, those kinds of things. Making it an uncertain environment, not knowing day to day what's going to happen. Things that you can implement is changing food delivery times. You can make the length of period of interrogation vastly different, sometimes going on and on and on for hours; other times five minutes.

There are many, many ways to manipulate the human mind, and they are all psychological, which is much more powerful than physical measures, and the folks (UNINTELLIGIBLE) are experts.

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: And many -- and many will tell you if you give them a carrot or give them honey, you get a lot more information as opposed to the physical side of it. Go back to World War II, one of the best Nazi interrogators apparently was a guy who used to take U.S. prisoners of war and drive them around the town of Berlin. Sometimes that works, doesn't it?

MCCANN: Sure, because you give them a taste of where they could be and what they could be doing. And then you draw the relevant, you know, necessary line back to, but because you are not telling us anything, you are not here. You don't have access to all of this, amazing complex kind of interrogation strategies.

HEMMER: Kelly, only a couple of seconds left here. The ultimate question: How do you define, and how do you discern what's truth and what's just made up?

MCCANN: Corroboration, Bill. I mean, just like in the media, you would never move on a major story with one source that's uncorroborated. And again, intel has to do the same thing. We would be chasing our own tail if we acted on every bit of information, and that unfortunately takes time.

HEMMER: And a lot of tails to chase apparently out there right now too. Thank you, Kelly. We'll talk again -- Kelly McCann in Washington.

MCCANN: Thanks, Bill.

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