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American Morning

Discussion With Author of 'War at the Top of the World'

Aired June 20, 2002 - 09:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Let's go to Toronto now. The author of "War at the Top of the World," Eric Margolis, a man who met al Qaeda's leader, Osama bin Laden back in 1992, our guest this morning -- Eric, good morning to you.

ERIC MARGOLIS, AUTHOR "WAR AT THE TOP OF THE WORLD": Good morning.

HEMMER: You say the number of al Qaeda operatives picked up by the U.S. and other countries has been exaggerated. How so?

MARGOLIS: Well, I said the number of overall al Qaeda operatives have been grossly exaggerated by the United States. The reason was, that included in the count in Afghanistan were Muslim resistance groups from Uzbekistan, from Western China, a large number, perhaps 5,000 Kashmiri independence fighters, fighters from the Philippines and different countries.

Amongst this group, only about 500 or less were actual al Qaeda hard-core members. And at the time of the American attack, the number may have been lower. Most of the people have disappeared, dispersed to Pakistan, gone undercover, and that's why it's so hard finding them. There just aren't that many.

HEMMER: Many have argued one way and others go the opposite. If they're on the run right now, some say that they are much less effective than they would be as a group. Others contend, and I think you might be in this school of thought, but once they're on the run and dispersed, it's much more difficult to hunt them down. Which school of thought works right now, Eric?

MARGOLIS: Well, I'm of the latter school. It leaked - a high- level government report this week suggested that the U.S. had really injured itself in the sense that it had dispersed these al Qaeda people and now they're much harder to find. And I've maintained since 9/11 on CNN that the real heart of the al Qaeda and other anti- American groups was not in Afghanistan, but in Egypt, primarily, in Saudi Arabia and the gulf, and in North Africa.

These groups still remain there. They remain very active and they are also scattered across Europe.

HEMMER: Eric, bring it a bit closer to home. Let's put up the picture of Jose Padilla. David Ensor mentioned him; he was picked up in the U.S. just about a week ago. Do you have a sense of how much al Qaeda has penetrated this country?

MARGOLIS: I can only surmise that the penetration is rather minor. There were not that many fanatically dedicated members of al Qaeda. That doesn't say there aren't ten or 20 or even 30 scattered across the United states. But the numbers are not large.

However, comma, let's remember al Qaeda was formed as a guest house for Muslims coming to fight the Soviet occupation in Afghanistan. It was not a worldwide terrorist organization. Initially, there were many older organizations.

They are still operative. And we need to look at them rather than focusing entirely on al Qaeda.

HEMMER: If that's the case, and let's put this list up for our viewers -- a list of seven. Some names we will recognize, others no. Osama bin Laden certainly at the top of the list. Third one down, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has become quite prominent recently. If we go to the second screen, Eric, of these men right now at large - possibly some of them are dead, we do not know - how dangerous are they if they're still on the loose?

MARGOLIS: Well they are certainly dangerous. And it's clear that the al Qaeda network and its allies is being revitalized and reactivated. The single most dangerous man is Ayman al-Zawahri, an Egyptian doctor, who was really considered and I believe to be the brains behind the 9/11 attack and the attacks in east Africa.

But what we're seeing now -- and this is very disturbing sign -- is that all sort of other suspects are popping up. Mid-level, relatively young Arabs, non-Arabs, Muslims from across the Muslim world, from Morocco to the Philippines, who have a grudge against the United states and may not be members of al Qaeda, but they are like- minded in their anger at the United states, in their thirst for revenge against the U.S. or their desire to drive American influence out of their party.

HEMMER: If that's the case, then, Eric, for them to be effective, they're going to have to find some channel or some link to the bigger fish out there. Is there any evidence right now that they're coming into contact with them and making that connection?

MARGOLIS: There are under ground networks, primarily that of the Afghani. These were the Muslims who went to fight the Soviets. They've maintained a worldwide network. I was with them in Afghanistan. They remain in regular contact.

This is unofficial network. Not all of them are anti-American, but certainly some of them are. The last two suspects who were picked up were Afghani that had fought in Afghanistan. So this is major source of communication.

But I emphasize that attacks against the U.S. or its allies need not be coordinated on an international level. They don't require a lot of finance. Many of them can be done locally. HEMMER: Quickly, and I think you would even concede that this stuff takes time. And if you look back to September, it's been almost 10 months. Quickly, how do you gauge success right now, given the answers and the argument you just laid out for us?

MARGOLIS: We can't. We can't call what we've done now a success yet. Afghanistan has not been a success. Our targets have alluded us, al Qaeda is still operative. In fact, there are probably more people angry at the United States now than there were before. And the U.S. is in the danger of getting bogged down into tribal conflicts in Afghanistan.

However, there has been success internationally in Europe, by coordination with European security agencies in preventing attacks against the American and European targets.

HEMMER: To much on our plate to get to. Thanks for talking, Eric Margolis, live in Toronto - thank you, sir.

MARGOLIS: You're welcome.

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