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American Morning

Lawyers Debate Bible Class

Aired June 24, 2002 - 08:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We focus on Miami now and a proposal to offer a Bible class to middle and high school students. It has reignited the debate over religion in public schools. The Bible study course is already offered in 195 school districts in 33 states, and a Christian teachers' group says that it covers biblical references and literature and art and the Bible's influence on the Constitution.

Joining us to debate this issue from Miami is Howard Simon. He is executive director of the Florida ACLU.

And from Tupelo, Mississippi, Steve Crampton. He is chief counsel for the American Family Association.

Gentlemen, good morning.

STEVE CRAMPTON, CHIEF COUNSEL, AMERICAN FAMILY ASSOCIATION: Good morning.

HOWARD SIMON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, FLORIDA ACLU: Good morning.

KAGAN: Howard, I'm going to start with you and not ask how can you teach the Bible in public school -- how can you not teach the Bible in public school when you look at its influence on those things I just mentioned -- art, literature, history? To not teach it is kind of, is so PC it's like avoiding the elephant in the room.

SIMON: Well, of course, you can teach the Bible. This is not about whether you can teach the Bible. It's about how you can teach the Bible. What our state requires and what the federal court required in the lawsuit that we were involved in involving the Fort Myers School District was the requirement that the Bible be taught in a neutral, objective, scholarly way, not to advance any particular religious point of view.

And in fact, our state now requires that a college-level class -- not the curriculum that's being proposed here in Miami, but a college textbook that is prepared by two professors from Stetson University, it be -- if a class is going to be offered, that's the class, that's the curriculum that needs to be offered.

So it's not about whether to teach the Bible...

KAGAN: It's how to teach it. SIMON: In fact, Miami already teaches comparative religion. So of course, you can teach about religion; you just can't advance a particular sectarian point of view.

KAGAN: All right, Steve, let's bring you in here. Come on, be honest, fess up: This is just one step in the march to bringing prayer and other forms of Christianity into public schools.

CRAMPTON: Well, that's absurd, of course. All we're about is not indoctrination. We're about introduction to basic concepts of the Bible. The point is, as you made earlier, that producing biblically illiterate children is really producing kids that aren't truly educated. We're handicapping them throughout life. They can't understand major art and literature that's been produced throughout history.

KAGAN: Well, and if this does come down to a question of curriculum, and people could look at the curriculum, Steve, that you're pushing -- and they could say, you know, that's fine if that's what you want your kids to learn, but why don't you send them to private school instead of public school?

CRAMPTON: The fact is most of the kids are in public schools. To deny them this is really to play the role of censor, which I thought the ACLU was against.

KAGAN: Howard, do you want to jump in on that one?

SIMON: Well, look, there's a distinction between a Sunday church Bible school and what's appropriate for the public school. As I said, of course you teach about religion. But what the curriculum that's being advanced by people outside of the state of Florida is is a program for Bible history, using the Bible as a history text and teaching the event. this is what people have to understand. This is not about literature and about the influence of the Bible; it's about teaching the events that are in the Bible: the burning bush, Jonah and the whale...

KAGAN: Well, yes, Howard, let me ask you these specific...

SIMON: ... the Resurrection as historical fact. That's what this is about.

KAGAN: Yes, be specific about points in the curriculum that truly offend you and the ACLU.

SIMON: Well, I just mentioned them. The various events in the Bible are portrayed as historical fact. That is what the school board attorneys, that is what a federal judge indicated is impermissible in a public school classroom.

KAGAN: And, in fact, Steve, there was a case -- this went to federal court in Tampa, and a judge did say that the curriculum is not appropriate.

CRAMPTON: Yes. KAGAN: And this, in fact, turned into a very expensive legal fight, which ended up talking about spending district dollars in a courtroom instead of in the classroom. Surely that's not what your group intends.

CRAMPTON: Of course not. That was an entirely different curriculum and a whole different fact pattern. This is the National Council's Bible curriculum, which the ACLU is very familiar with -- has followed us around state to state and has never brought a lawsuit. The fact is that they like to go and complain to school boards, as they are here, and if they're unsuccessful there, they'll go away to the next school board. There's nothing unconstitutional with this curriculum.

KAGAN: But let's get back to Howard's point about teaching the Bible and the events as historical fact. Is that how you think it should be taught?

CRAMPTON: That is not how it is taught here. The mere exposure to the story of the burning bush or the Resurrection or the miracles is just part and parcel with teaching any book. Again, to extract those essential portions of the scriptures would, in fact, amount to censorship. So you can't teach "The Wizard of Oz" without...

SIMON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CRAMPTON: ... teaching what happened to the Wicked Witch of the West when she melts. You just don't have a story that hangs together. You've got to include those essential portions like the burning bush.

KAGAN: OK, let's take this conversation a step further. And if you don't want censorship and if you want the children of America, and here in Miami specifically, what we're talking about, to grow up more educated, how about, then, expanding it? Should your children be taught the Quran? Should they be reading that?

CRAMPTON: I'm sorry, is that directed to me?

KAGAN: Yes.

CRAMPTON: They're already offered that comparative religions course, which Howard made reference to. I don't have any problem with the same sort of neutral approach in a world religions context -- again, provided it's on an elective basis, just as the Bible curriculum is.

KAGAN: So it would all be elective. So if a child or if a parent decided that he or she did not want their child to be taking this Bible course, that would be OK with you?

CRAMPTON: Absolutely.

KAGAN: Howard?

SIMON: Well, you know, I'm afraid this is less than an honest discussion. There is a curriculum prepared by a North Carolina group that's being advanced all over the country. We challenged it in federal court. A federal judge enjoined it, issued a preliminary injunction preventing the school district from teaching it because, as the federal judge said, it would be impossible to be able to teach the Resurrection and the miracles of Christ in a neutral and objective way. That's appropriate for a church school, and not a public school.

It is the identical curriculum that is being advanced in Miami and around the rest of the country. It is we offer comparative religion in Miami. What else is it that's being sought in addition to the comparative religion? There's obviously something else that they want to do in addition to teaching about the world's major religions.

I used to teach philosophy and religion. Believe me, I believe that no education is complete without learning something about the world's major religions. That is not what is being advanced here.

What is being advanced here is the Bible as a history text. That's appropriate...

KAGAN: And, Howard, just tell me quickly, because we're running out of time here: Where does it stand? Come fall, will students in Miami-Dade County be able to take this course or not?

SIMON: I doubt it. Once the Miami-Dade County School Board takes a look at the curriculum here, I find it hard to believe that they would approve this curriculum.

KAGAN: Howard Simon, in Florida, Steve Crampton, in Tupelo, Mississippi -- gentlemen, thank you for your insight and your discussion today.

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