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American Morning

Interview with Frank Dunham

Aired June 26, 2002 - 07:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to get back now to yesterday's courtroom appearance by the so-called 20th hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui.

Frank Dunham is one of Moussaoui's court-appointed public defenders, dismissed by the defendant. He was in court yesterday, though.

Today, Mr. Dunham joins us live in Richmond, Virginia.

Good morning to you, sir.

FRANK DUNHAM, PUBLIC DEFENDER: Good morning. How are you doing?

HEMMER: I'm doing just fine.

We want to put up on our screen for our viewers a quote that is attributed to Moussaoui. And as we look at that, "I do not accept this plea of not guilty. I have no plea. I plead no contest. I have nothing else to say to the United States." His words from yesterday.

Sir, make sense of this, if you can, as to what's happening inside his mind and inside the courtroom.

DUNHAM: Well, you know, I can't make sense of what's going on inside his mind. You know, our position all along has been that there's a strong probability that he's suffering from a mental disability.

Now, the judge has rejected that, yet his behavior in court continues to underscore our concern.

HEMMER: Do you think he's willing to die?

DUNHAM: Well, he says no and he believes that there's a conspiracy around him, an ever growing, ever mounting conspiracy with increasing numbers of people that are placed into it. And I'm just not sure that he's making rational judgments at the present time. That's my concern.

HEMMER: Let's go back to June 13. Another quote from Zacarias Moussaoui. We'll put it up on the screen for our viewers again. He says, and quoting now, "I will never share information with them" -- talking about his attorneys -- "In fact, I believe they are working against me." At one point he called them -- quote -- "bloodsucking Jews."

The quote continues, "I will never meet with them again. This life is very precious to me and it was given to me by God."

Do you know, has this man had any conversations with any attorneys in this case thus far?

DUNHAM: Oh, he's had, I've had hundreds of hours talking to the man. You know, I believe that I was getting to know him very well, and that is what caused me to believe that he's got a problem.

HEMMER: When did that change?

DUNHAM: When did what change?

HEMMER: The conversations you had and now the impasse you've reached and now the conclusion that you draw that...

DUNHAM: Well, the...

HEMMER: ... he's not a guy that you necessarily were getting to know, but, in fact, he has turned out to be quite mysterious?

DUNHAM: Well, I don't think he's mysterious. I think he's got a mental health problem. That's what I believe. It hasn't been ruled out, at least to my satisfaction. There hasn't been a full psychiatric examination of Mr. Moussaoui. And I think that, and I still believe that's what needs to be done. And every day that goes by and every new episode with him underscores that belief.

Now, I haven't talked to him since April the 20, I guess April the 20th. But prior to that time I had over 55 meetings with the man. And I saw this developing then and I see it getting worse now.

HEMMER: If he goes forward and insists on defending himself, what are his chances of success in this case?

DUNHAM: Well, I'm not going to predict it, but I don't, I do not think in his present state that he can do an adequate job of defending himself. I think the lawyers that he had were dedicated to his defense, were working hard on the case. For some reason he, in his mind, is convinced that they were actually an adjunct of the prosecution and he has decided that he does not want them anywhere near him, nor will he accept anyone else that the court might appoint to help him.

He believes they're all, the court itself, the judge herself, he believes, is involved in the conspiracy.

So with that hobgoblin in your mind, it's kind of difficult to trust anybody. And so he is protecting himself.

HEMMER: That might be...

DUNHAM: I do not think he wants to die.

HEMMER: Yes, that might be an understatement when it comes to defending himself.

Frank, thanks.

Good luck to you.

Frank Dunham, our guest today from Virginia.

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