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American Morning
Interview with Neil Lewis
Aired June 26, 2002 - 07:21 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to go ahead and move on to the latest courtroom controversy involving Zacarias Moussaoui. He is the so-called 20th hijacker.
He is defiant as ever in a Virginia courtroom. Moussaoui's attempt to plead no contest to conspiracy charges was rejected by the judge. She had to enter a not guilty plea for him at yesterday's arraignment on a revised indictment. The defendant is representing himself, but one of Moussaoui's standby attorneys says that this bizarre proceeding casts further doubt on his ability to do just that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALAN YAMAMOTO, COURT-APPOINTED ATTORNEY: If he's unwilling to speak to counsel and intends to continue on his own, at some point the court may have to step in if it feels that Mr. Moussaoui is not receiving a fair trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: The judge also denied Moussaoui's request to move the trial from Alexandria, Virginia to Denver.
"New York Times" reporter Neil Lewis was in the courtroom. He witnessed the dramatics and he is in Washington to talk about what took place there.
Neil, good morning.
NEIL LEWIS, "NEW YORK TIMES": Good morning, Daryn.
LEWIS: Try that one more time, because your voice sounds like the audio is not quite working. Can you give me one more good...
LEWIS: How's this, Daryn?
KAGAN: That's much better. Thank you so much.
LEWIS: All right.
KAGAN: First of all, we should establish that even though this sounds like this is turning into a circus in the courtroom, so far the judge has said that Zacarias Moussaoui does have the right to defend himself and not work with his lawyers. LEWIS: So far she has. She raised the possibility yesterday that her patience on this might be nearing an end. She has kind of an interesting relationship with him. She's become as much a judge, she's also kind of like a patient teacher in explaining to him what's going on and he's her unruly pupil. And he gets up and gives long speeches and she tells him to sit down and he has so far mostly complied.
But yesterday -- and he's a man who's, he's somewhat articulate. He speaks with a heavy French accent. But his knowledge of the law is quite limited. It's the kind that's gained from, you know, watching Judge Judy or reading novels. And he throws out terms not knowing exactly what they mean.
And that's what happened yesterday. He tried to --
KAGAN: Yes, let's talk about this specific thing...
LEWIS: ... plead no contest.
KAGAN: He's trying to plead no contest. This is very dangerous for him, and we could look at it and be amused by what's going on in the courtroom. But as the judge explained to him, he's very close to entering a guilty plea and that could lead to the death penalty for this man. This is serious stuff.
LEWIS: Well, quite right. He talked back to her. She asked him to make a plea of guilty or not guilty and he said no, I plead no contest. And she said you can't do that. Just as you said, Daryn, it was quite dangerous. And he said no, no, in your system -- he started to lecture her -- in your system nolo contendere means no contest.
Well, it actually is the equivalent of a guilty plea. It's just not entered that way, so it couldn't be used against one in a civil suit. But she has an obligation to protect his rights, even if he's not doing a good job for himself. So she entered a not guilty plea.
KAGAN: And she has tried to help him in suggesting that, one, it's not a good idea for him to try to represent himself. Also, how does he end up here? I know he didn't want the original lawyers he was working with, that he had asked for a Muslim lawyer. Why does he not have -- I think there's somebody in the courtroom who's kind of counseling him but is not officially his attorney.
LEWIS: Right. It's a very confused situation. He was originally assigned three lawyers. He did not endear himself to them. He described them as "blood sucking Jews," and people who are conspiring to put him to death. So they have stood aside. Two of them have been asked to stay on as standby lawyers.
The judge has appointed another standby lawyer, the one we saw in the segment a while ago...
KAGAN: Mr. Yamamoto.
LEWIS: ... Alan Yamamoto. KAGAN: Yes.
LEWIS: And, but Mr. Moussaoui said he wants to be counseled by Charles Freeman, a Houston lawyer who is a Muslim who sat in court yesterday.
Now, it's quite inexplicable. Mr. Freeman wants to counsel him but doesn't want to be his lawyer. He has not put in the requisite appearance. He has helped him on some of the pleadings and Judge Brinkema said so far that's improper. You have to actually file with the court.
So it raised the possibility that it was, again, another kind of sort of event that was being manipulated for Mr. Moussaoui to complain about.
I should say that not everything Mr. Moussaoui did or does is entirely foolish. Some of it is, has some element of common sense. He objected yesterday to an order that the names and addresses of witnesses would be concealed. And he said, quite logically, well, how do I know who they are? I can't have my investigators, if I ever get them, determine their voracity.
KAGAN: Yes, and we are short on time, and that is one of the problems that the judge pointed out when he was going to try to represent himself, that he's not going to have access to the very evidence he might need to defend himself.
LEWIS: That's right.
KAGAN: Neil Lewis, "New York Times," thanks for bringing us the events from inside that courtroom in Alexandria, Virginia.
LEWIS: Thank you, Daryn.
KAGAN: Appreciate it very much.
We also want to let our audience know that coming up we will be talking with one of Zacarias Moussaoui's court-appointed lawyers, Frank Dunham, and he'll maybe give us some more insight on that legal situation.
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