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CNN Live At Daybreak
Federal Appeals Court in San Francisco Says Pledge Can't be Recited in Public Schools
Aired June 27, 2002 - 06:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: A federal appeals court in San Francisco essentially says the Pledge of Allegiance cannot be recited in public schools. It's a case of separation of church and state. The man who brought the case says some of the reaction to the ruling has been downright scary.
Details from John Baird (ph) of CNN's Sacramento affiliate KOVR.
(TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES WITH AUDIO)
COSTELLO: As you saw, we have some technical problems there. We'll try to bring you that story a little later.
But Michael Newdow, who brought the case because his second grade daughter was required to listen to the Pledge, has been getting death threats. And we want to ask this question this morning: Are there constitutional implications to this ruling?
On the phone with me now, Paul Rothstein, who is a Georgetown University law professor -- good morning.
PAUL ROTHSTEIN, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Good morning, Carol. How are you?
COSTELLO: I am pretty good. I have a lot of questions for you though.
ROTHSTEIN: Sure. It's nice to see you again, by the way. I've got you on the screen here.
COSTELLO: Oh, yes. You know, we know each other well from Washington, D.C. It's nice to talk to you too.
Hey, are you surprised that the court ruled this way in this patriotic climate we are in right now?
ROTHSTEIN: Well, what I am surprised about is that they have spent so much time, the court has, on this tempest in a teapot, I call it, with everything else that has beset this country that a court would take this time and effort to strike down a couple of words in the Pledge of Allegiance. And then that the Congress would take the time that they did last night to make a resolution against it, and that all of the people on both sides of this issue have become so upset. It's really not that big a deal. That's my opinion.
COSTELLO: Oh, Paul! A lot of people would disagree with you. A lot of people say it's a really big deal. Why do you say it's not?
ROTHSTEIN: Well, you know, it would be a big deal if the government did try to enact a government religion, or if people in school were coerced into worshiping in school. Here, there is a choice, but of course, the Supreme Court frequently has said that things that happen in schools are inherently coercive, that children are sort of slaves to the peer groups, so they can't really not say the Pledge of Allegiance, although in theory they are allowed to drop out.
I think it's an important theoretical problem, but not an important practical problem when we've got other things to worry about.
COSTELLO: But still, don't you think this issue will go to the Supreme Court?
ROTHSTEIN: I think it will, because there is another decision in the lower federal courts governing different states going the other way. This only governs the western circuit of the United States, the West Coast and some western states. And I think it will go to the Supreme Court.
The question to be interpreted here is the so-called establishment clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution that says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." And this has been interpreted in such a way that no government, state or federal, is supposed to encourage either religion vs. non-religion or any particular religion, and they are not supposed to do that directly or indirectly.
And if you push that to its logical conclusion, the words "under God" should not be in the Pledge of Allegiance, but the Supreme Court has never pushed these things to their logical conclusion. They have let some things slip by, like there is "in God we trust" on the money. Over the Supreme Court itself, over the heads of the justices is a reference to God, and every morning, they open with someone who proclaims "God save this honorable court." And Congress opens with invocations to God by ministers.
So a lot of these things have slipped by, and the court says as long as it's sort of cultural or incidental, in other words, as long as it's small things...
COSTELLO: Right.
ROTHSTEIN: ... it can happen.
COSTELLO: Right.
ROTHSTEIN: Like you can put a Christ scene at a public building if you have other symbols...
COSTELLO: Right.
ROTHSTEIN: ... of other religions and things like that at Christmas.
COSTELLO: We understand.
ROTHSTEIN: Yes.
COSTELLO: We are running a little short on time.
ROTHSTEIN: Sure.
COSTELLO: But thank you, Paul Rothstein, for joining us this morning and giving us some insight to this question. We do appreciate it.
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