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CNN Live At Daybreak
Interview with Maj. Matthew Holt, Sgt. Paul Martinez
Aired June 27, 2002 - 05:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Talk about opening the proverbial can of worms. A federal appeals court ruling that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because it includes the words "under God" is drawing a lot of heated response. And trust me, that's an understatement.
CNN's James Hattori now with how this can of worms got opened in the first place.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL NEWDOW, PLAINTIFF: I deny the existence of everything for which I have no belief.
JAMES HATTORI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Michael Newdow likes the smell of roses, but what he's savoring now is an unprecedented legal victory. A U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals decision against the Elk Grove, California school district, where his daughter attends classes, declaring the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because the words "under God" were added by Congress in 1954.
NEWDOW: This is coercion when you take little kids and you put them in a setting where the teacher is leading the students, even if she doesn't have to say the words, she's still being coerced to, you know, countenance this religious belief system that she may not want to agree with.
HATTORI: Newdow, a 49-year-old emergency room physician who also holds a law degree, says he didn't file the lawsuit two years ago to seek publicity. He did it because he believes the government illegally endorses religion, whether it's words printed on currency or recited in a classroom.
NEWDOW: The first 10 words of the Bill of Rights says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" and that's what won this case. And that has permitted our country to thrive, our religions to thrive. All our churches are allowed to do whatever they want because we have this, because government doesn't get involved. And here government was getting involved.
HATTORI: For other parents in the suburban Sacramento neighborhood, it's not so clear cut. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His daughter is not required to recite it. She can sit in her chair and do something else while the rest of us do it. That should be our privilege. That should be our freedom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody can tell anybody else what they can and cannot believe in. In school, I don't see the harm.
NEWDOW: Individuals can invoke the name of God as much as they want. That's their free exercise right under the constitution. The government may not. And we just have to keep those two things separate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: James Hattori also tells us that the school board in Sacramento is expected to appeal the Circuit Court's decision.
West Virginia Senator Robert Byrd is the only current law maker who voted in favor of adding the phrase "under God" to the Pledge back in 1954, and he was quick to comment on the court ruling. He did so on the Senate floor. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: What are we coming to when we can't speak God's name? Let 'em put me in jail. I'll read that Bible right here on this desk. I've done it before, I'll do it again. I've recited the Pledge and so has every other member of this body, time and time again. Come, judge, put us in jail. When I speak at a commencement, I'm going to speak, I'm going to use some religion in that speech, too. They can put me in jail if they want to.
I tell you, the people of America are not going to stand for this. And I, for one, am not going to stand for this country being ruled by a bunch of atheists. If they don't like the way -- if they don't like it, let 'em leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: This ruling has created such a controversy, our fast working international desk has arranged for us to speak with some of the American troops now in Afghanistan. We want their reaction to this ruling and from the Bagram Air Base we're joined by several soldiers.
Sergeant Matthew Holt and Sergeant Paul Martinez, did I get your rank right? Sergeant Matthew Holt...
MAJ. MATTHEW HOLT, U.S. ARMY: Actually, I'm Major Holt.
COSTELLO: OK. I apologize for that.
Major Holt, let's start with you.
SGT. PAUL MARTINEZ, U.S. ARMY: You got my rank right.
COSTELLO: Oh, good. I'm glad, Sergeant.
Major Holt, let's start with you, OK? Is that OK? Are you still there?
HOLT: OK.
COSTELLO: OK.
How did you hear about the ruling?
HOLT: Yes, I'm here.
COSTELLO: OK, can you hear me now?
HOLT: Well, I was kind of -- I can hear you fine. I was very surprised when I heard it on the news this morning, very disappointing, the fact that our country, we have a Pledge of Allegiance and we pledge the allegiance to the flag. And it just indicates that we are one nation under God, and god is the term that is used for faith, regardless of what religion you believe in.
So it's disheartening that again we are having our freedom, which we embrace, torn down by special interests or individuals who disagree with it.
COSTELLO: So it does strike you as un-American?
HOLT: Not necessarily un-American, but the foundation of our country has been built on, you know, freedom, faith, liberty and all of those types of traits. And, again, the Pledge of Allegiance talks allegiance to the country, to the flag, not to God. It just indicates that it's a country that is under a god and god used as the word for faith. So in a way it is un-American and over here fighting in Afghanistan, I do take offense to it.
COSTELLO: OK, let's switch over to Sergeant Paul Martinez now. So I'm going to ask you the hard questions, Sergeant. You're fighting against an enemy that does not allow freedom of religion, that believes its brand of religion should be imposed on all of us. So isn't it so ironic that we're expressing such outrage against saying "one nation under God" with the Pledge of Allegiance?
MARTINEZ: Yes, I believe it is an outrage that they're doing that. We're here fighting for those freedoms. And I think that we should stick by our guns and not let 'em change any of it, change it.
COSTELLO: I guess what I'm asking you is why do Americans object so heartily to maybe taking out the words "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance when you're over there fighting an enemy who imposes its religion on the whole population, and wants to on the entire world?
MARTINEZ: Well, I think that Americans basically deal with tradition and like to have a good foundation. I know as you get older you want to be stable and not have a lot of change in your life. And I think that we've been saying that since we were young, I said it in elementary school and most Americans have been saying that. And to come and change something takes away the traditionalism in everything that this country stands for.
We're slowly losing our identity, so to speak, in America.
COSTELLO: So to you this is not so much about religion, but it's just tradition and our culture that the Pledge of Allegiance is said this way?
MARTINEZ: Yes, that's exactly right.
COSTELLO: OK, I want to thank Major Holt and Sergeant Martinez for joining us this morning. And we do support your efforts out there.
Good luck to you both.
Thank you for joining us.
MARTINEZ: All right, thank you.
HOLT: Thank you.
COSTELLO: We have such a long delay. It's always kind of awkward, isn't it?
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