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CNN Live Today

Courts Tackle Several Controversial Education Issues

Aired June 27, 2002 - 11:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Now, the Supreme Court is wrapping up its 2002 term today and is doing so in style. It has got a pair of important rulings concerning the nation's schools that we just heard about, and our national correspondent, Bob Franken, is at the court this morning with the latest on all that -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, and as we heard with all the controversy over the ruling about the Pledge of Allegiance, and "under God," and separation of church and state, the most watched for ruling of this Supreme Court was the last one they issued, and it had to do with school vouchers, specifically the Cleveland school voucher case. This was an extremely closely-watched opinion, and it was a 5-4 decision. The decision was that Cleveland's school voucher program is constitutional, even though -- even though parents are allowed to take the money from public schools, send their children to parochial schools, religious schools, which require religious training. Nevertheless, it was considered by the justices to be neutral since the parents could make that decision.

In the opinion that was written by the chief justice, William Rehnquist, he said the constitutionality of a neutral educational aid program simply does not turn on whether a particular time -- in a particular time, most private schools are religious, or most recipients choose to use the aid of religious schools.

Now, as I said, it was a 5-4 ruling, and some of the dissents were very sharply worded, including one by Justice John Paul Stevens, in which he called this decision -- quote -- "profoundly misguided." He spoke about the Balkans, and Northern Ireland, and the Middle East, and he said, "whenever we remove a brick from the wall that was designed to separate religion and government, we increase the risk of religious strife."

Now the ruling, of course, was greeted with predictable responses. We talked just a very short time ago with Sen. George Voinovich, a Republican from Ohio, who was governor of Ohio, and helped design the program approved today by the Supreme Court.

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SEN. GEORGE VOINOVICH (R), OHIO: In our program in Cleveland, people have the option to take and use that wherever they wanted to use it. And fortunately, some of the nonpublic schools both Lutheran, Catholic and some of the Christian schools, opened the doors and gave them an opportunity to take advantage of the scholarship program, and I would believe that now that the court has ruled this constitutional, you are going to see more of these schools being creative throughout the country, that will be -- quote -- "nonreligious."

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FRANKEN: Well, as a matter of fact, that is exactly the concern of those organizations and people who spend a lot of their time opposing incursions into what they view as the violation of overlapping church and state that is brought out in the First Amendment. And their reactions, as we saw them on CNN a while ago, were also predictable.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is probably the worst church/state case in the last 50 years. It really brings a wrecking ball to the part of the wall of separation between church and state regarding funding of private religious schools.

I don't know what country these justices are living in, but in the country, and in Ohio where this case started, 96 percent of the beneficiaries of these vouchers were in religious schools. The money ended up directly in the treasuries of those religious schools, which means all taxpayers now have to subsidize religious education and indoctrination. That's not the American way of doing things.

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FRANKEN: But, of course, the Supreme Court agreed, ruling that the Cleveland school vouchers program, vouchers programs, are constitutional, at least as designed like the one in Cleveland was.

But, of course, education is a matter that so often preoccupies the Supreme Court as it correctly preoccupies society. And so, there was a lot of attention to another case in which a school district in Oklahoma had ordered that all students participating after school in all extracurricular activities should be subject to a drug test. Earlier, in another term, the Supreme Court had ruled that athletes should be drug tested, because of the obvious physical dangers they face. But this one expands it.

Writing for the majority, a 5-4 majority again, Justice Clarence Thomas said, "The need to prevent and deter the substantial harm of childhood drug use provides the necessary immediacy for a school testing policy." And that as a result, he said that it was reasonable. But, there was certainly some dissent.

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who was in the minority in this opinion, said "This particular testing program upheld today is not reasonable. It is capricious, even perverse." So, the debate goes on, for the moment it has been settled in the Supreme Court.

They have ruled that drug testing for all extracurricular activities after school will be allowed, at least that it's constitutional, according to the court, and back to the first ruling, that the Cleveland school vouchers program, vouchers even if they are used in parochial schools that have religious training, even so, this is neutral and constitutional -- Leon.

HARRIS: All right. Good deal. Thanks, Bob. Bob Franken there at the Supreme Court. Busy morning shaping up there already.

And speaking of school issues, want to get back to the one that has been topping our reports all morning, this report that -- a ruling of an appeals court in California saying that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because of the words "under God."

Well, we are going to go now to an elementary school, I believe it is, in Elk Grove, California where they are about to say the pledge this morning. Do we have that picture ready? There we go. They are talking about this issue, and I believe that James Hattori is standing by there -- James, are you there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope everyone is having a great start to their Thursday morning. I have a few of Mr. Schwall's (ph) students here to introduce themselves so we can get started with our opening activities and our flag salute, and here they are to introduce themselves to you.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Good morning. My name is Jasmin Copry (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Good morning. My name is Jessica Volpari (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Hello. My name is Rodney Huds (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Good morning. My name is Sedrick Bart (ph).

CHILDREN: Stand, salute, pledge.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

JAMES HATTORI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That was principal Mike Gulden at Barbara Comstock Morse Elementary School, making the Pledge of Allegiance recitation over the public announcement -- public address announcement system here at the school.

Mike, let ask you real quickly, this is something the district chooses to do as a matter of routine every morning, is that correct?

MICHAEL GULDEN, PRINCIPAL, BARBARA COMSTOCK MORSE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL: We do at our site as a matter of routine, and the district supports it, the board supports it, with their civic values education that we -- that is a priority for us here in district, yes.

HATTORI: Now, the state law here in California allows districts to make that choice, either the pledge or some other sort of civic ceremony or lesson.

GULDEN: That's correct. HATTORI: What kind of reaction have you had in the community, if you have had any since?

GULDEN: I haven't had a whole lot of reaction this morning. Most of the reaction has been to what all the cameras and so on are here for this morning. The news came down at the end of our school day yesterday, and really didn't have a lot of reaction yet. I anticipate more as the day goes on.

HATTORI: What's your opinion? I mean, do you think adding or taking out the words "under God" would make a difference to the kids in terms of a lesson in what this country is about?

GULDEN: You know, I think it would make a difference, especially with all of the events that have taken place this year. I don't know what kind of a difference it would make, but I do think it would make a difference. And in talking to students this morning, because a lot of them have formed opinions overnight in talking with their families and so on, it's something that weighs on them, and they've said, Oh, you know, it's not something that I would be interested in changing.

HATTORI: But, you know, for a lot of kids, I would imagine this is something they say very, very -- as a matter of routine, and don't give a lot of thought to on a daily basis, but perhaps this is giving them a chance to reflect a little more about it.

GULDEN: I think that is probably a good point. It is an excellent opportunity for us to reflect. I had a number of teachers ask about that this morning. How do we want to address that in our classes today? And I think exactly what you said is what they are going to do. Take this opportunity to talk a little bit about it in depth, and what it means a little bit more.

HATTORI: OK. Thank you. Mike Gulden, principal here at Barbara Comstock Morse Elementary School. The school district will have a little more to say about how the appeal of this decision will proceed from here. We expect to hear from them a little later this morning -- Leon.

HARRIS: All right, James. Just have one complaint. The kids really didn't finish the pledge. It is not finished until they also say, "you may be seated."

HATTORI: Well Leon, you may be seated.

HARRIS: All right. Thanks, James. James Hattori at Elk Grove, California.

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