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CNN Talkback Live
Corporate Scandal Rocks America; Should Van Houten Get Parole?
Aired June 28, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST, "TALKBACK LIVE": Man, they say time flies when you have fun, and I'm having fun because I didn't realize it was time to go to work.
OK, hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville and it is free-for-all Friday. As always, we're going to have a little fun with some of the stories in the news.
And yes, we'll get to the Pledge of Allegiance again. I can tell by your e-mails that you still have plenty to say about that one. But don't stop now; you can e-mail Talkback@CNN.com or give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN. You're going to meet our Friday panel in just a minute, but first take a look at what we have on the show today.
Investigators in the Elizabeth Smart case zero in on a handyman and his Jeep.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NETH MOUL, MECHANIC: He kept the seat cover in a big plastic bag. OK, and then he tie it up. He carry that plastic bag out, along with a kind of post-digger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Former Manson family member Leslie Van Houten is up for parole. She says she's really sorry for the pain her crimes caused, but is it time to let her out?
Also, is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you look at this case, as far as what it represents, I don't think there's any question, legally, I'm correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It seems like we've lost our freedom as a country to express our feelings about God.
(END VIDEO VLIP)
And WorldCom, Imclone, Enron and now questions about Xerox. Is ethics a dirty word in corporate America? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LETTERMAN: It's gotten so bad, earlier today New York Mets catcher Mike Piazza held a press conference to announce that he is not an accountant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK, I'm supposed to introduce the panel right now, but first I want to introduce some people in the audience. Just real quickly. I have a lot of people from my home state, Louisiana, here. Where are you? All right. The great state of Louisiana. Welcome to all of you. OK.
Now let's meet our free-for-all talk show hosts. Joyce Kaufman is a radio talk show host on WFTL and WDJA in Florida. Russ Verney is co-host of "Judicial Watch" on the USA Radio Network. Frank Ski, he hosts the V-103 morning show here in Atlanta, and he is on his way. And Dom Giordano -- Excuse me, Dom, you've been here before. He's a teacher, writer and talk show host on WPHT in Philly. Welcome to all of you. So glad to see all of you.
OK, listen. We're going to start with that Elizabeth Smart investigation. Let's bring everyone up to speed on this story. CNN correspondent Ed Lavandera is in Salt Lake City and Ed, if you're there, tell us about the handyman and his Jeep Cherokee and why they are so important to this investigation.
ED LAVANDERA: Well, it seems like every day we hear more revelations about how this handyman might or might not be connected to this case. Police still at this point not calling him a suspect. But all the information we're getting at this point seems to suggest -- or suggest exactly why police are looking at him so closely.
What we have learned so far is that a pair of tan pants and a white polo shirt were taken from his mobile home. He lives just on the southern edge of Salt Lake City. A machete and a golf-style hat was taken from his father-in-law's house, which -- he lives just next door to him. And also, they're paying close attention to this Jeep Cherokee that he owned, which was given to him as partial payment for work that he had done for Ed Smart, Elizabeth Smart's father, for work that he had done on his house last year.
And they're trying to figure out where this car was between May 31st and June 8th of this year. We understand that it had been in the shop through most of May. And sources tell CNN, and that the auto shop owner also tells CNN that he had shown up at the auto repair shop, picked it up on May 31st, and brought it back on June 8th. It came back with about 1,000 more miles on the car, and the auto mechanic also describes the car as being very dirty. So those are some of the reasons they're looking at this guy very closely.
NEVILLE: Ed, stand by for me. I want to ask you some more questions, but in the meantime I'm going to toss to Fredricka Whitfield, who is standing by in the newsroom with some breaking news -- Fredricka. (INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)
NEVILLE: OK, Fredricka. Thank you very much.
And Ed Lavandera, I want to pick up where we left off. Now is this guy Richard Ricci an official suspect at this point?
LAVANDERA: No. Police are making it clear at this point that he's not an official suspect in this Elizabeth Smart case. Remember Bret Michael Edmunds, the man they were looking for for about a week, but they found him last Friday in West Virginia, and he was also not considered a suspect. But definitely someone who's at the top of the list, in the investigators' own words at this point, of the several different theories that they're looking into at this point.
And there are a lot of people suggesting that this guy is also more than just a suspect, but the official line is that he's not a suspect.
NEVILLE: Now, have you heard from the family yet regarding Ricci and these latest developments?
LAVANDERA: Well, Ed Smart, Elizabeth Smart's father, came out when this news first broke and said that he had no idea about Richard Ricci's criminal background. If he had, he wouldn't have exposed his family to this person.
The family won't go much beyond that. Any questions about the investigation or what police are doing or what has been found in terms of evidence or who is testifying before a grand jury, the family is quick to deflect any of those questions, saying they can't comment. They're focusing their attention and their public comments on the search for Elizabeth Smart, and because -- despite all of these revelations as to who might or might not be a suspect, in the details that are emerging, one thing that hasn't changed for them is Elizabeth Smart is still missing, and that's what pains them the most.
NEVILLE: Yes, the sad truth remains the same. Ed Lavandera, thank you very much for the update.
And I'm going to bring the panel in on this discussion now. I'm going to start with you, Joyce, and ask you -- I mean, we hear these stories in the news. They are so heart breaking. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this particular story?
JOYCE KAUFMAN, WDJA RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I have to share not just my thoughts but my listeners' thoughts, because we talked about it today. The tremendous amount of attention that has been paid to this story is unusual.
There are thousands of children missing in America, and yet this story somehow has captured people's imaginations more than anything else. But my listeners brought up a very interesting point. If he's really not high on the suspect list, why is his face on television every 15 minutes of the day? And on top of that, if you are well-to- do and you want to have some remodeling done on your house, the normal course of events, or at least the way I have always handled it, is you call the Better Business Bureau, you hire a licensed, bonded...
NEVILLE: You know what? Not everybody does that, though, for a handyman, if you need somebody to paint a room in the house or fix the lock or something like that. I mean, a locksmith would do that, but you know ...
KAUFMAN: No, no. This guy spent months in their house. They gave him a car. It wasn't like he was just changing a lock.
NEVILLE: That's true.
KAUFMAN: He should have been a licensed, bonded contractor, and the problem is, these people could afford that. They chose to expose their family to what ends up being a very dangerous guy.
NEVILLE: I mean, I understand what you are saying, Joyce. Inadvertently, I think, they ended up exposing their family to this person. I don't think -- I mean, come on, you can't tell me that anybody, any parent in their right mind, would have someone who could possibly harm their children inside of their home. That just wouldn't happen.
KAUFMAN: Absolutely.
NEVILLE: Russ, go ahead, tell me your thoughts.
RUSS VERNEY, "JUDICIAL WATCH": Yes, well, first one has to wonder, did they pay withholding taxes when they gave the car, or is he paying income tax on it? We used to have attorney general nominees with that kind of a problem, having people work under the table. This case, as sad as it is, points to a bigger problem in America.
Where is Rilya Wilson, and why we forgot about her, the 5-year- old girl from Florida who was missing for 15 months before the state of Florida, in whose care she was, even knew she was missing. There are thousands of these girls all over the country missing, and boys, too, young kids, that we're not giving enough attention to.
I'm glad that this family can have the media attention that they have and hope they find their daughter safely, but there are others out there we've got to look for, and this has got to be a higher priority in police and law enforcement.
NEVILLE: Well, thank you for those comments. And we definitely covered the Rilya Wilson story extensively, and that's definitely something that I'm very interested in, what happened to Rilya. Unfortunately she is still missing, as well. We have to move on right now. We could talk about that a lot more. But I have to switch subjects at this point.
I want to let you know that, indeed, there was smoke at the Capitol. The Capitol has been evacuated, and we are following that story. We'll let you know any latest developments that we need to bring to you. In the meantime, check this out for up next. We're going to talk about corporate ethics. Gabriel, is that an oxymoron.
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: The laugh was enough for me. We'll go to WorldCom headquarters, where employees, unfortunately, are wondering what hit them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Corporate America has got to understand there's a higher calling than trying to fudge the numbers, kind of try to slip a billion here or a billion there and hope nobody notices. But you have a responsibility in this country to always be above board.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody. TALKBACK LIVE free-for-all Friday. I'm Arthel Neville.
What in the world is going on in corporate America? Maybe someone somewhere once called it creative accounting. Well, today Xerox joins the ranks of companies admitting overstating profits. Earlier this week, WorldCom was discovered hemorrhaging red ink, and a once healthy stock is now junk.
Thousands have lost their jobs, and right now we're going to check in with CNN correspondent Sean Callebs in Clinton, Mississippi, which is home to WorldCom. And Sean, I think what everybody wants to know is, what is going to happen to these workers? We are talking about 17,000 people, I mean, roughly the size of Ocean Springs City, Mississippi, just to put it in perspective.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. That's a good perspective.
NEVILLE: And also, we're talking -- are they going to get severance packages?
CALLEBS: Well, they are getting severance packages. We talked to a handful of employees who lose their jobs today. They left the headquarters behind us, through these iron gates, and came out. A lot of people are very bitter at this point. This wasn't something that happened overnight.
WorldCom stock really plunged over the last 18 months, but the bottom did fall out on Monday when WorldCom came clean and said that it had, in essence, hid about $3.8 billion that it claimed as profit. So a lot of people coming out here today very concerned. They're very disappointed with the severance package, the ones we talked to. This is a company that's not very old, so it doesn't have very deep pockets. In fact, the big question right now: does it have any money?
NEVILLE: Wait, wait. Back up for me there, because I've got two things here. First of all, I want to know what sort of severance packages are these employees getting? CALLEBS: Well, to tell you the truth, we don't know.
NEVILLE: They haven't told you?
CALLEBS: They haven't told us anything. They are not saying how many employees here, at their headquarters, are being let go. This is an operation that has offices all over the country. We're told the biggest hits are expected to be in the D.C. area, Dallas area, and where they have offices in between Denver and Colorado Springs. But we've just had to stop people and try and cull whatever information we can. It's very limited.
NEVILLE: Of course. I understand, you know. But listen, I heard you say that the company says it doesn't have a lot of money, right?
CALLEBS: It's not the company that's saying that, at this point. I think a lot of regulators, a lot of people are coming through and taking a look at the company. The stock was, what, 64 dollars two years ago? Now you can't even buy a piece of gum with WorldCom stock.
NEVILLE: Here's part of the problem, Sean. We're talking about two years ago, a retention program paid 558 top execs roughly $237 million in bonuses, OK? Then, listen to this, Bernard J. Ebbers resigned as CEO at the end of April. Scott D. Sullivan, CFO, fired on Tuesday. They received $10 million in retention bonuses in 2000.
CALLEBS: Well, to put Mr. Ebbers into perspective, just for a moment.
Apparently, a year ago he tried to cash in a number of his stocks to take care of what are called margins. The company said, well, don't do that at this point. If, indeed, you do sell something like $400 million in stock, it's going to send all kinds of red flags to our investors.
He didn't do it, so the board gave him about $400 million in loans. So when he lost his job a few months ago, the stock was basically worthless. So when he left, dramatically different circumstances than the Enron guys, who in essence padded their pockets before they were able to walk out by selling their stock. Ebbers left owing this company $400 million in loans.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, Sean, thank you very much for that report. I have to bring my panel in to discuss this right now, OK?
KAUFMAN: This really ties into the last story.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Joyce.
KAUFMAN: You know, you were you talking about evacuating somebody at a family center and evacuating a Capitol building.
It's interesting how these CEO's evacuate so conveniently. Martha Stewart knew when to get out, and how to get out. And Kenneth Lay knew when to get out and how to get out. And maybe they need to be training our para-professional rescue teams or something. Corporate crime is a term that Ralph Nader coined 35 years ago when I was in college, and everybody called me a leftist and a Communist because I said, the day will come when this will be front page news and you know what? The day is here.
DOM GIORDINO, TALK SHOW HOST: You know, Arthel, that day is here, but that doesn't indict all the corporate executives across the country who are not committing these frauds.
NEVILLE: We are not dealing with the people who are not committing these frauds.
GIORDINO: I agree you're not, but I think Joyce is headed in that direction.
NEVILLE: OK, listen. I want to give you a little more information on this Ebbers guy, Bernard J. Ebbers, Bernie as they call him. Now his severance package provided him with $1.5 million annually, for life. Plus, use of a company plane for 30 hours a year. Medical and life insurance.
Frank Ski, do you know how many people want medical insurance and cannot get it? This is ridiculous.
FRANK SKI, V103 RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes, But I think we have to keep one thing in perspective, and that is that these guys are hired to raise company hundreds and hundreds of million dollars a year.
They are sort of like the brain trust. And when the board of directors decides to bring in somebody like that, it's because they are going to bring the company a lot of money. Having a great CEO is the difference between being successful and not.
NEVILLE: But they're not successful. They're having problems.
KAUFMAN: They are thieves. It's criminal.
SKI: That's ...
NEVILLE: Go ahead.
VERNEY: Arthel, this is Russ Verney. As ...
SKI: That's secondary. The first thing -- the first thing is they get hired to come in and do a good job because they're brainiacs. As much of the ...
NEVILLE: You know what? Hang on. All CEO's and CFO's are not brainiacs. Now a lot of them are smart, but not all of them are. You can't just say that.
SKI: Absolutely.
NEVILLE: But go ahead and speak up, Russ. Go ahead. VERNEY: OK. This is a problem with the board of directors of these companies. Nobody -- these CEOs didn't give themselves these benefit packages. It's the board of directors who have a fiduciary responsibility not just to the investors, but also to the employees of that company.
They need to treat that money that investors are putting into their companies with precious care and not with the callousness that they have been using to get the sleaziest deals they can, whether it's through the investment bankers, the ratings companies, the brokerage houses
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Panel, hang on, because, unfortunately, we have to interrupt you yet again. This is CNN, so we have to cover breaking news when it happens, which is happening right now.
So I'm going to toss to Fredricka Whitfield, who is standing by in the newsroom.
(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)
NEVILLE: I'll tell you what, the things that happen here on this set when we are in commercial break.
Listen, I want to move on, but I do have one final question regarding this WorldCom story.
And, Russ, I'm going to start with you because I cut you off.
Do you think these people, if they are found truly responsible, guilty -- however you want to phrase it -- should they go to jail?
VERNEY: Well, I think Martha Stewart better start penning a book that tells you how to spruce up a jail cell a little bit and make those dinners look more appealing.
Yes, they most certainly should. They stole money, not just from their investors, but also from their employees and their retirees. This is criminal acts that they are doing. And when these boards of directors hire people that will play fast and loose with mergers and acquisition to raise the bottom line instead of producing a better product, they are going to play fast and loose with all of the books. And that's what is coming out of these companies today.
KAUFMAN: And what is up with the SEC and the American people, who are obsessing about whether or not a circuit court in California will debate the Pledge of Allegiance and the words "Under God," and allow their citizens to be raped and pillaged on Wall Street every day. I think we need to get our priorities straight, guys.
(APPLAUSE)
Giannone: Hey, Arthel, I would just make a comment about Martha Stewart, though, to follow what Joyce said, by saying, we are obsessing over Martha Stewart. I wonder if it's because she's a powerful woman or at least a rich woman that Martha Stewart is taking all this heat right now.
VERNEY: I think it has to do with Martha Stewart setting herself out there as some Ms. prim and proper that you can use for advertising for an entire line at Kmart and everywhere else. She's saying, "I'm wholesome. I'm the everyday American woman." She's not.
GIORDANO: Well, that's what you say. I don't know that America agrees with you on that.
KAUFMAN: Yes, she's just so unlikable. But she's getting a tough time.
NEVILLE: Joyce, how do you really feel? Gosh.
Go ahead, Frank Ski.
SKI: I was going to say that the reality of it is, it's white- collar crime in America.
You have got kids who sell a vial of crack and go to jail for 10 years in the city, but yet these corporate CEOs steal millions from America. And chances are, they will get another job right away.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Oh, and a great severance package, the old golden parachute. Absolutely.
We are going to move on.
Maddox, you have something to say about this. Go ahead for me.
MADDOX: I was just going to say, these people are nothing more than thugs and bandits. And they are stealing from the Treasury of America. And we are letting this foolishness going on because we are being diverted by something about the Pledge of Allegiance. That is not the issue. The issue is these thugs and these corporate bandits stealing America blind. That's the real issue.
GIORDANO: This is not the Treasury of America. These are private companies, sir.
VERNEY: Well, when they go through bankruptcy, it costs the Treasury something. It might.
KAUFMAN: When it's my 401(k) that's involved, it's the American people we are talking about.
(APPLAUSE)
MADDOX: Thank you. Thank you.
NEVILLE: Well, listen, Patricia over here has something to say.
I'm going to let you stand up and speak out.
PATRICIA: To the gentleman, since when did it become a crime for a woman to be -- for it to be a crime for a woman to be a wholesome woman? What does that speak to the children of the world, when you take a woman like that, a powerful woman like that? Not that two rights make a wrong, but this type of thing goes on all of the time.
NEVILLE: Do you think they are picking on her a little bit more because she's a woman?
PATRICIA: I really think that they are picking on her more because she's a woman
NEVILLE: OK, let me let Russ jump in there.
VERNEY: I think if any of these other CEOs had as much television time as Martha Stewart talking about how to live a good life, what products to buy, what foods to eat, they would be vilified just as much.
Now, whether or not she sold her stock on insider information is irrelevant. There's stories out there that she has lied to the investigators. And that's a problem for her.
NEVILLE: Well, you guys have already mentioned the Pledge of Allegiance. Obviously, I don't have to say much more than that to get you going on this story.
Well, you know the ruling declaring it unconstitutional has been put on hold until the entire 9th Circuit Court of Appeals can hear the case.
And, Russ, I'm going to go back to you. Do you think this is a good idea?
VERNEY: Oh, absolutely. The 11 members of the Court of the 9th District will hear this case and undoubtedly reverse it. It would be silly for it to be enacted before then. But what would have happened was a moment to stay this decision until it gets to them and they can make a solid decision.
But the Supreme Court has been all over the world on this issue. And it is time to get it clarified and leave "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.
SKI: Absolutely.
GIORDANO: Absolutely.
KAUFMAN: Yes. It was never the "under God" that bothered most of us. It was "the liberty and justice for all" part that bothered a lot of us. And what we were just talking about, the Bernie Ebbers and the Kenneth Lays, that's where the liberty and justice for all gets a little mixed up in my head.
SKI: Well, I think one of the things that we need to start realizing is that the Constitution was written by men and the Supreme Court interprets it. And every time we get a new set of judges in there, the interpretation changes as time changes.
I don't think that our founding fathers ever intended for God not to be anywhere in the United States. God was the reason why they came here in the first place.
(APPLAUSE)
GIORDANO: I agree with that, Arthel. And I think what we have here is the tyranny of the minority. You have one guy who is an atheist and his daughter, who is not mandated to say the pledge. He can opt out from her saying that.
KAUFMAN: That's not tyranny. That's democracy.
GIORDANO: No, tyranny of one person.
KAUFMAN: That's freedom of speech.
GIORDANO: How about my freedom of speech?
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Yes, what about ours? I want to say "under God." I say leave it at is.
GIORDANO: Exactly.
NEVILLE: If you don't want to say it, just don't say it.
KAUFMAN: Exactly.
GIORDANO: Don't say it.
NEVILLE: OK. I have got Tony here from Canada.
What do you think, Tony?
TONY: Well, anybody who has a problem with it as far as "under God," just empty out your wallet and take a look at what is on the back of each bill.
NEVILLE: Oh, but he says he's not going to stop at the Pledge of Allegiance. He wants to go for that as well.
TONY: Well, where's it going to end?
VERNEY: If he wants to be in a country that doesn't honor God at all, he has got one 90 miles off of Miami. He can go to Cuba.
TONY: Absolutely. Absolutely.
NEVILLE: I have got Lee in the audience.
Go ahead, Lee. LEE: Well, our forefathers came with the belief in God, not telling you how you had to believe. But I'm kind of sick and tired of somebody with a single minority opinion trying to impose that on the majority of us as Americans. And would I like for it to remain there.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
KAUFMAN: Don't worry, because both parties have decided to jump on that bandwagon. There's no chance.
GIORDANO: I would tell you, Arthel, it seems as if some people believe they have a constitutional right not to be offended by something somewhere. And there is no right not to be offended.
NEVILLE: OK, let me let Jonathan from Massachusetts get in.
JONATHAN: I think what's interesting is, he mentioned his daughter in this lawsuit. And he didn't want her to be affected by that.
Well, in my upbringing, I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. So, all throughout my school career, I never said the Pledge of Allegiance, but I never felt isolated or lonely. In fact, in some ways, I was kind of proud. "I don't have to do this and you guys do."
But later on in my life, as I joined the Marine Corps and learned how to say the Pledge of Allegiance doing push-ups, it was one of those things that I took a lot of pride in, the fact that, yes, this is my country and that's my flag that represents what I do.
KAUFMAN: And that's an important point.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Very nice.
KAUFMAN: Are children supposed to be indoctrinated into loving this country or should this country be so grand and be so righteous that the love develops inside of those children? I don't think you have to mandate it.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Russ.
VERNEY: Arthel, if this man believes in atheism, then, for every moment that they are quiet in school, they are practicing his religion and forcing every other student to practice his religion. For a couple of seconds in the Pledge of Allegiance, he can tolerate ours.
NEVILLE: I have an e-mail I want to share with you now. Let's pop that up. It's from Lisa in Tennessee: "Considering our melting- pot culture in the U.S., I agree with the argument that the 'under God' should be changed to include a broader realm of beliefs."
GIORDANO: What would that be? NEVILLE: Yes, that's what I want to know, but she's not here. It was an e-mail. It was an e-mail, so I can't ask her.
(CROSSTALK)
KAUFMAN: There was no "under God" in the original pledge. It was inserted to differentiate us from the Soviet Union. Well, guess what? All you guys have been telling me for the last couple of years that, thanks to Ronald Reagan, there's no evil empire. So now we can take the "under God" out. It's not a big deal. The nation is indivisible.
VERNEY: Communism hasn't ended because the Soviet Union isn't there.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: There's the bell. We haven't heard the last word on that, but that's all the time I have for it today.
Up next, remember the Manson murders? Details of that gruesome crime spree are filling a parole hearing that is going on right now. Should Manson family member Leslie Van Houten be set free? We'll get a live report from Corona, California, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
Former Manson family member Leslie Van Houten says she's very sorry for the pain caused when all those people were butchered back in 1969. And, for the 14th time since 1978, Van Houten is asking for parole.
CNN correspondent Charles Feldman is covering that hearing in Corona, California -- Charles.
CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, yes, Leslie Van Houten, when she was 19 years old, some 33 years ago, took part in the murder of the La Biancas, a couple chosen at random by Charles Manson.
While the husband, Mr. La Bianca, was being killed, Leslie Van Houten was in another room with a pillow case over the head of his wife. And then, after the wife was stabbed brutally with a bayonet, Leslie Van Houten then took turns stabbing her some 16 times in the back with a knife.
And, at this parole hearing, Arthel, she was asked if she remembered taking part in that murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you, in turn, then stab Mrs. La Bianca?
LESLIE VAN HOUTEN: Yes I did, in the lower torso, approximately 14 to 16 times. I didn't know at that time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you remember doing that?
VAN HOUTEN: Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And after that, what happened?
VAN HOUTEN: I told Pat that I had touched the lamp. And I began wiping off fingerprints in the bedrooms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FELDMAN: Now, her lawyer says that she's a new woman; she's rehabilitated. And she says that she has helped make quilts for the homeless, that she has helped teach other inmates at this prison behind me how to read.
And, therefore, her lawyer says, this time, after 13 tries, she deserves to go free. But that decision, ultimately -- although it will be made by the parole board -- will be bumped up to the governor. And it's the governor who is going to have to decide in the end -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: Boy, thank you, Charles, for that report.
And we have some audience reaction.
Joy, what do you think? Should she be given parole?
JOY: I think there's really no way of knowing if she's rehabilitated or if she's not. But keeping her in there longer really isn't -- you really wouldn't know. So, my suggestion -- yes, I think she should get paroled.
NEVILLE: OK. That's OK. I know you are little nervous. No problem.
Sharmane (ph), stand up.
SHARMANE: Hi.
I think not. I think that she knows what she did. And I really don't think she should be paroled, because, to stab a person 14 to 16 times, that is ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. And I don't care how long she stays in jail. She's never going to be rehabilitated to the point where we will feel safe...
NEVILLE: So, wait, do you think that she would commit such a crime were she to be let out?
SHARMANE: I don't know. I think that, now that she's old, she may not. But you don't know. You never know. You never know what these people will do.
So many times, I have seen -- and this is from personal experience -- that people who have been in jail come out. And, in less than a year's time, they are right back there.
NEVILLE: For doing the same thing.
SHARMANE: Yes, exactly. So, I say no.
NEVILLE: OK, thank you.
Joyce, what do you say?
KAUFMAN: Well, first of all, we have to decide if we believe that our criminal justice system works at all. We say we put people inside of these prisons to rehabilitate them. And then we say we don't believe they can be rehabilitated and don't let them out. So, that's the sort of kind of an opposite way of thinking.
But, after listening to that report and hearing about all the good work that she's doing in there, I think she's probably right where she belongs.
NEVILLE: She has earned two degrees while in there as well.
(CROSSTALK)
VERNEY: Let her earn 50 degrees.
GIORDANO: Let her get her doctorate in doing quilts for the homeless in there, yes.
VERNEY: Let her earn 50 degrees. She belongs in jail forever. A life sentence is a life sentence. That was a brutal, heinous crime. She could have killed Charlie Manson that day, but she chose to kill some innocent people just for a game. Leave her in there forever. And then give her another life sentence.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hang on. One at a time.
Go ahead, Dom.
GIORDANO: Arthel, I focus on looking at what I think were the family members there in your clip from that. This brings up the whole incident again. They have to sit there and hear her talk about stabbing them in this manner, in a cold-blooded mechanical manner. They have had to hear this now 14 times.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hang on.
Frank Ski is up now.
SKI: The real deal is that was people that were following a cult. Had she had God in her life, it would have never happened. So, let's go back to the first question.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Russ.
KAUFMAN: She didn't say the Pledge of Allegiance. That must be it.
SKI: See, that's your problem. You are not understanding what God does. See, when you have God in your life, you don't go through all this. And we wouldn't even be having these problems or these questions. It's all you people that keep putting God out, that's why you have the problems.
KAUFMAN: Nineteen people who had God in their lives flew airplanes into buildings in New York.
NEVILLE: Hang on. No, no, no. Let me get Jason from Georgia in here.
JASON: Hi, Arthel.
It's 30 years. And I understand the feelings of the people that are on the panel and the family, but it has been 30 years since she committed a crime. We know how egregious it was.
NEVILLE: OK, excuse me.
(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)
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