Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Saturday

Debate Continues Over Pledge of Allegiance

Aired June 29, 2002 - 12:51   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GROUP: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic of which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The judicial branch of our government has made some controversial rulings this week. First, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals found the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, unconstitutional.

And the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that school voucher programs are constitutional. Let's debate both decisions with our guests in Washington, Reverend Barry Lynn is with the Americans United for Separation of Church and State; Kristin Hansen is with the Family Research Council.

Thanks for joining us.

KRISTIN HANSEN, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Thank you.

REV BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE: Thank you.

Well, Kristin, let me begin with you. Do you see a real contradiction that the U.S. Supreme Court would allow state monies to go toward private schools of a parent's choice and at the same time a lower federal court would find the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

HANSEN: Definitely, and I think there has been a lot of confusion among our courts on what exactly religious freedom means in this country. But I think the 9th Circuit is way out of hand. And I think I join with millions of Americans on that same issue. Especially at a time after 9/11 where we've been coming together as a country to mourn and heal. And our nation's leaders have been talking about what we share in common.

And it's been unifying and comforting to hear that our nation believes in God and we look for him for our help. And in comes the national grinch, in this case, three judges in black robes that say, "sorry kids, no Pledge of Allegiance." And I think people are bewildered because it goes against what's embedded in our nation's founding, and the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

Among many other Supreme Court cases that acknowledge that this country is a country that believes in God and our dependence upon him.

WHITFIELD: Well, Reverend Lynn, do you see a real contradiction here?

LYNN: Well, there is certainly a contradiction, but the 9th Circuit got it right, and the Supreme Court wrong when it comes to understanding what religious freedom is all about.

The Supreme Court in saying that you could send tax dollars to primarily religious schools, frankly, violates a central premise of our country and that is that we should choose voluntarily what, if any, religion we are going to adopt, and what, if any, religion we want funded.

The 9th Circuit in its Pledge of Allegiance decision was very clear. This is really a no-brainer. Congress added the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, turning what was a unifying statement, Kristin is certainly right about that, a unifying statement of patriotism into a divisive statement about religion...

WHITFIELD: But Reverend Lynn, do you already -- or Lynn rather -- do you already see that the U.S. Supreme Court has perhaps set a tone with its voucher system decision. Hasn't it already set a tone now for the unbunk (ph) 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in their vote, or their reconsideration of the constitutionality, or lack there thereof, of under God in the Pledge of Allegiance?

LYNN: I think when they rehear this, 11 judges out in the 9th Circuit Federal Court of Appeals, I think there's a good chance they will uphold this decision, because what could be more clearly a governmental position on the issue of religion than adding the words "under God."

You know, many Americans feel that there is one God. Others feel there are multiple gods and some, of course, Americans believe there is no God. If we wanted a Pledge of Allegiance that honestly reflected what the American people believe, we'd say, "one nation under God, gods, or perhaps no God." But, of course, we're not going say that because that would be even more controversial. But it would be truthful.

No one should feel like a second class citizen or a second class patriot if he or she says, "I love my country, I just don't accept the particular religious viewpoint reflected in the current Pledge of Allegiance."

So the Pledge of Allegiance should be said. I think it should be said by all Americans without the phrase "under God," which tends to divide us instead of bring us together.

WHITFIELD: Well, Kristin, you're shaking your head. You don't agree with this at all? HANSEN: No, I believe the Pledge of Allegiance is constitutional. This decision by the 9th Circuit, which by the way, has been overturned 27 of 28 times in one year, and has a terrible track record, is going to be smacked down by the Supreme Court.

In no way shape or form do you have a constitutional right to not to hear speech that you disagree with. And no child is compelled or forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance. And this is merely an opportunity for students to participate in acknowledging what we -- the shared values we have in our country. I think that...

WHITFIELD: Well, Kristin, you even mentioned -- I'm sorry, Kristin, you even mentioned after 9/11, this seems to -- this debate alone has injected yet more fuel into the passion of patriotism for this country. And it seems as though any justice is going to find some pressure coming from this very overriding feeling that the Pledge of Allegiance or modifying the Pledge of Allegiance is in some way dishonoring the country.

HANSEN: Well, I don't think it -- it is definitely an unpopular view right now, but I think it is inconsistent with our over 250 years of history that say that our country is one that believes in God and it's right there in the Declaration of Independence that we -- our rights come from our creator. And the Declaration of Independence is going to have to be next for the Reverend Lynn, and if because -- if the pledge is unconstitutional, so is the Declaration of Independence, and we can't study that in our schools either.

LYNN: Of course not. That's not anywhere close. This is whether you can take young schoolchildren and have them participate. You're right, they're not forced literally to say the words, but to participate in an event declaring the Pledge of Allegiance that does include words, which some of them and their parents do not agree with. I don't think we have to believe the same thing about religion in order to believe the same thing about our country and the fact that we're patriotic Americans.

And any time you make someone feel like an outsider in an official event, in a public school, I think you're dishonoring the central belief of this country's founding, that liberty of conscience, freedom of conscience includes the right to believe or not to believe in matters of faith and religion.

So I think the 9th Circuit got it right, it wasn't a very -- it shouldn't be a controversial ruling and now it is time for us to get together, see what the courts say. Whatever the courts say, that will be the final word.

WHITFIELD: And that ruling has been said -- has been stayed. It is not the final word just yet. It still could be yet months more before we find out what the entire 9th Circuit Court of Appeals panel believes on that issue.

LYNN: Absolutely.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, Kristin Hansen and Reverend Barry Lynn, thank you very much, both of you, for joining us afternoon.

LYNN: Thank you.

HANSEN: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com