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American Morning

Interview with Marcel Chappuis

Aired July 02, 2002 - 09:08   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Firefighters turned firebugs, prosecutors say Leonard Gregg, a part time firefighter, started the massive Rodeo blaze in eastern Arizona so that he could earn money fighting it. Gregg's arrest follows that of Terry Barton, a career Forest Service worker charged with setting a monster fire in Colorado. What makes someone who is paid to protect the forest turn to torching it?

Joining us this morning from Salt Lake City, clinical psychologist Marcel Chappuis, a consultant with the Salt Lake City Fire Department. Did I get your last name right there, sir?

MARCEL CHAPPUIS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Chappuis, yes. Thank you.

ZAHN: Chappuis, OK. Welcome. Glad to have you with us.

I know that you have performed some psychological evaluations as you've looked at people trying to qualify themselves as firefighters. What psychological red flags might determine that someone could end up doing what we've just talked about?

CHAPPUIS: Well, in order to answer that, I would like to give you just a chronology of interest in fire, and -- because that's the main question is, a history of fire setting. What we know is that almost -- there's a very natural interest in fire that we can identify usually between the ages of four and six, and mostly with males. In fact, most males will give you a history of having played with fire or matches. The other thing you need to know is that nationwide, we know that about 50 percent of all fires are related to children playing with matches. Of this, we know that 80 percent of those are what we call curiosity fire setters. They're younger. They are average age five. And they're just showing curiosity and playing with matches. A small percentage of the 20 percent are people who continue in their interest in fire setting, and a smaller percentage of those end up extending that interest in fire into adulthood.

It's been our experience in working with arsonists, and specifically firefighter arson, in this case is the one common denominator is we always have a history of fire play. And -- most major metropolitan fire services noted that this was a problem about ten years ago, and what they did was they started screening applicants and were pretty successful in getting most of them out. Nowadays what we are running into -- the problem exists primarily in the unregulated fire services, that is volunteer services, as well as the seasonal wildfire...

ZAHN: So doctor, are you telling me that these folks are so fascinated by fires that they're tempted to start one to see what the outcome would be?

CHAPPUIS: No, actually what happens is, is we have this early curiosity and fire setting history, and what happens is, is this interest kind of piggybacks on other psychological variables. In the two cases that you brought up, the most common denominator there is anger, and the FBI profiling will tell you that is the most identifiable psychological variable is anger and revenge. So, no, it isn't that they continue to set fires all the way through their history, but they have a history of this, and this tends to piggyback on other psychological variables.

ZAHN: Where does issue of a hero complex come into this, or does it?

CHAPPUIS: I think that's a little bit of an oversimplification. I think a lot of these people are very insecure. They're very transient. That is the typical arsonist. They have very poor interpersonal relationship skills, and it is more an issue of recognition or control, if you will. And so, in the earlier fire incidents we used to see with metropolitan services, there was more of a hero thing, where I am going to come and rescue, and be the one that has their picture taken, you know, taking the child out. That type of thing. But now, it's more -- in my opinion, more of an issue of power and control and, again, playing out the other psychological variables that these people have.

ZAHN: Well, it's absolutely fascinating to think about. Obviously, you have spent a lot of hours examining this, and Dr. Chappuis, we thank you for your insights this morning. Appreciate them very much.

CHAPPUIS: Thank you very much, thank you.

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